Newbie questions on caliber & grip

[lenny7]

It is with a sad heart that I join this forum.  A couple of weeks ago my brother died suddenly from health issues.  Not only was he my brother, but he was one of my best friends.  He didn't have much, but he did have a few firearms, including a Contender with 6 barrels and an Encore with 2 barrels.  It looks like I will end up with them, and I am mighty grateful, and touched, that I did.  These handguns meant quite a bit to him but...something I'll always regret...we never shot them together.  He, my son and I would go pheasant hunting twice a year, and we'd trapshoot a few times, but we never got out to shoot these, even though he talked about them a LOT and always wanted to take me shooting with him.   For some stupid reason, I found out they were single-shot pistols and lost interest.  What I wouldn't give to have a chance to go back just one time to shoot these with him.

But I can't go back, I can only learn from my mistakes and not so easily dismiss what those that I love hold dear.  I've starting learning about these T/C pistols and am now looking forward to shooting them, and next fall, to use one for deer hunting.  I know my brother shot several deer with these and wouldn't even consider using anything else.  I really wish I had taken the time to learn about these years ago, it's a very cool platform.

Sorry for that preamble before my questions, but I wanted to let you know where I'm coming from.  I've started reading the old threads on this forum and have learned a lot already, but there are a couple questions I'd like to ask.  My first questions involves the barrel I now I have.  He left me the following:

Contender:
5mm - 10" octagon
.44 Mag - 10"
.45 Colt - 10"
.30-30 - 12" (w/ brake)
7-30 Waters - 14" (w/ brake)
.338 JDJ#2 - 14" (w/ brake)

Encore:
30.06 - 15"
300 WSM  - 16" (w/ brake) This is rechambered from a .308 T/C barrel

Off hand, I don't know the barrel lengths, and I may not be totally correct with what has or doesn't have a brake.  I'll try to update the list when I get home.  My first question involves caliber.  I'm not afraid to admit that I'm a bit intimidated by the idea of shooting a rifle round out of a handgun, and I'd like to work my way up from lowest to highest recoil.    The 5mm is obviously the lowest recoil round and I've already shot that.  For the rest of the calibers, I have no idea and would appreciate some guidance as to the order in which I should shoot these.  For now assume my list is correct in that regard.

I've done some checking and it sounds like there's some question as to whether the .300 WSM should even be shot in the Encore.  Most of the posts I've read have have been old.  Is there anything definitive on this caliber?  My inclination now is to just set it aside.  

He left me with a few hundred reloads for both the 7-30 Waters and the .338 JDJ#2, so I'm good with ammo for a while.  Based on what I've read, I'll be using the 7-30 Waters for deer hunting.  When the reloads run out, I guess I'll start reloading myself.

The 5mm barrel I've already shot.  He had just bought it and brought it out to South Dakota with us on our last pheasant hunting trip to shoot it for the first time, but because it was so dang cold (-20F windchill), we never went out to shoot it.  A few days after his funeral I felt the urge to shoot his guns and I broke it in for him.

Second question is about grip.  Is there somewhere online that will show me how to properly grip these guns when shooting the big calibers?  I don't want to be on the next Youtube video showing someone getting a dent in their skull because they weren't holding it properly.  

I guess I have a third question too....my son was very close to my brother.  In fact, for his birthday later this year, I'll present him with my brother's shotgun.  I'd like to take him out shooting this, but at 13 years old, the only barrel I think I'd let him use is the 5mm, but the ammo is still pricey for a rimfire.  I'll buy a .22LR barrel for sure, but I'm wondering what larger calibers, for which factory loads are available, would be recommended for a young teen.  He has shot my .40S&W pistol, and my 4" .357 Mag (with .38spc loads) and has handled those just fine.

Thanks for listening, and thanks for your help.  I plan on sticking around and learning, and from time to time I may ask a question or two.

[rdmallory]

Sorry for your loss.

The 45LC with "Cowboy Loads" will be fine for him and a hoot to shoot.

Not that they are not a handful the rifle rounds in a pistol length barrel leave a lot of unburnt powder so they don't equal the same recoil as a rifle.

PS: Make sure everyone wears ear protection all of them are going to be LOAD. And be careful with the reloads if you did not load them yourself. Never know what was a test round and what was not.


Doug

[mcwoodduck]

Also the Encore and contender can be made into rifles/ carbines that would be great for a kid.
I have a stock kit and carbine barrel in 223 for my contender and it makes a great little carbine (16.25") that the kid can use easily in 223, 44 mag, 22LR, 30-30 or 35 Rem.  Or add a longer barrel 21 to 23 " and you have a very short rifle.
While I let kids shoot my handguns I do not let them hunt with them.  I think you need more practice to hunt with a handgun or small guage shot guns like a 410 and I think we do a disservice to kids trying to make them shoot them.
The Encore can be made into any number of rifles or even 12 ga shot guns.
The classified pages here will help you greatly in getting what you want.
Sorry to hear of your loss.
Here is a picture of three rifles all in the same caliber just to show how short the Contender carbine really is.

[Curtis]

A cautionary tale for sure.  I too am sorry you lost your brother and friend.  I have no experience with the Encore, so my comments will be limited to Contender only.  As rdmallory alluded to the 45 colt can be quite mild.  It can also be hand loaded well into wild territory. 

The 7-30 Waters if it is 14" and braked, will be a pussy cat but the blast may be quite pronounced.  Young shooters are often more disturbed by the perceived blast than the recoil.

The 30-30 if unbraked and 14" will be a little more recoil but less blast than the 7-30.  Still nothing to be scared of IMO.  If the 30-30 is a 10" tube it may be a handful depending on your tolerance.  I find that the 14" barrels recoil almost straight back while the shorter tubes exhibit more muzzle rise.  That being said, I've never had any of my 10" barrels try to get in my face.

Also note that the 10" barrels were made in tapered octagon and also heavy round (not quite straight bull) and the weight of the heavy barrel and any scope/mounts that may be present can have a very large affect on taming the recoil.

The most unpleasant barrel I have in my collection is a 10" tapered octagon in 44 mag.  It has lots of muzzle flip and also torque.  BTW the 30-30 was also offered in a slim octagon and I would imagine it can be unpleasant as well.

I don't know much about your 338 JDJ but would imagine it is in the "hand cannon" realm with many of the other JDJ calibers.  I have an unbraked 14" 375 JDJ and it is the only barrel I have that I would not put in the hands of even an adult novice.

So, I guess I would order your calibers after the 5mm in Contender as follows:  45 colt (cowboy loads), 7-30 Waters, 30-30 (assuming it's not the dreaded octagon barrel), then either the 338 or 44 mag.  44 mag can be surprisingly stout from this platform depending on what grips are on your pistol.  And I'm assuming the 338 is a 14" barrel.

Hope this helps,
Curtis

[lenny7]

Thank you for the contributions so far! 

I just want to clarify a couple of things in my original post in case it was confusing.   Working through the calibers of the barrels I have will only be done by me, not my son, though I do appreciate hearing about which ones he could shoot.  Also, he will not be using these pistols for deer hunting.  He will continue to use his 30-30 rifle and 20ga slug gun for deer, depending on which zone we're in at the time.

The only place my son enters into this is in trying to find out how stout of a load I should go with him.  We'll shoot plenty of .22LR once I get that barrel, but I want to have some "WOW!" loads for him too, without overwhelming him.  In addition to the handguns I mentioned above, he's comfortable shooting my M1 Garand with hot greek milsurp ammo, and will shoot trap with my 12Ga pump from time to time.  Slugs out of his 20ga also do not bother him.  I won't say he loves recoil, but he certainly does not back away from it.

[mcwoodduck]

I think there is a difference between recoil on your shoulder like the slugs and recoil in your hands.
as Rd and Curtis said the 45 colt is something he can handle shooting.
I have a 14" barrel in 30-30 and one in 44 mag.  I find both to have aboout the same recoil.
And the same loads out of of my S&W revolver I use for plinking that are a 180 grain bullets at 1000 FPS and are like shooting a 38 Special but feel like a Mag out of the 14".
Similar to shooting a slug out of the 20 ga from your shoulder and trying to do so while just holding on to the shotgun are two different recoils.  While the force is the same absorbing the recoil with your arms first rather than your body is going to be the difference.  And having the kids arms and hands as the pivot point could get him hurt if he is not expecting one of the wild rounds.

[xphunter]

Lenny,
Do you have any friends who can help you get started reloading?
What kind of deer hunting do you typical do?  Stand hunting, still hunting, spot-n-stalk, elevated blinds, ground, etc...?
What is the terrain like?  More open, like wheat fields or close range-Under 100 yards?

The barrel/cartridge I would pick from each action type for beginning hunting is the braked 7x30 Waters for the Contender, and the braked 30-06 in the Encore.
I would wear double hearing protection when practicing and I would encourage you to use some type of hearing protection when hunting.

The WSM is okay in the Encore as long as you do not run the same pressures as one would with a bolt action. 
A number of barrel makers no long chamber the WSM's in the Encore, but I believe that there is one, possibly two that still does.
One time use of factory ammo should be fine too. 
In that, even if the case stretches more than normal, it would only be used one time

I use rifle cartridges (some bigger than the WSM) in MOA's and XP-100's. 
Saying that to say this, if the barrels are braked on the 7x30 and the 06 they are not going to be hard to handle in the recoil arena.
With good muzzle brakes on cartridges of the 06, WSM's, and above I use rifle scopes on mine.
I am not recommending you to go to a rifle scope on your handgun, but just making the point that a good brake really softens the felt recoil.

[Doublebass73]

Sorry about your loss. I'm fairly new to Contenders myself so I can't give much advice other than I love my 10" .45 Colt barrel. You can practice all day plinking with light cowboy rounds or load them heavy and go deer hunting with shots out to 100 yards if you're a good enough shot and practice quite a bit. Even if you don't reload there are plenty of factory options for heavy deer loads, it just costs more.

I love to set clay pigeons at the 75 yard mark at my pistol range and practice hitting them off hand with the .45 Colt.

[lenny7]

I checked the barrels last night and I've updated the list above, including adding barrel length.  The two changes regarding brakes is that the 30-30 barrel does have a brake, and the 30.06 barrel does not.

I think there is a difference between recoil on your shoulder like the slugs and recoil in your hands.

Absolutely.  I just mentioned my son's experience with the rifles and shotgun to give an idea of what he could handle.

Lenny,
Do you have any friends who can help you get started reloading?
What kind of deer hunting do you typical do?  Stand hunting, still hunting, spot-n-stalk, elevated blinds, ground, etc...?
What is the terrain like?  More open, like wheat fields or close range-Under 100 yards?

I think I could find someone to mentor me in reloading.

Typically our deer hunting is from stands, but now that my son is going, we'll also be using ground blinds, both store-bought and one built from natural materials.  Terrain is wooded, mostly oak, aspen and scrub.  Lots of hills and ridges so it's mostly close range.  Every deer I've shot has been 60 yards or less, but there are a few swamps on the land and a 200 yard shot is possible.

[lenny7]

And be careful with the reloads if you did not load them yourself. Never know what was a test round and what was not.

I just unpacked all the reloads last night.  I've got about 600 rounds for the various barrels, including 100 rounds of 7-30 Waters and 200 rounds of the 338JDJ#2.  On most boxes of reloads he has a sticker indicating all the component information and the ammo appears to be in great shape.  There are a couple boxes though, where he just has the caliber written on there, and one or two boxes that look fairly old. 

I noticed there are also a few rounds where the bullet sits deeper in the case than the average round.  Those have me concerned.  As far as the amount of power in each, would it be feasible to weigh each round to see that they're all the same?  Would a double charge of power have a noticeable affect on the total weight of the round?

[Grumulkin]

If I had a brother who was a responsible and competent reloader, I would shoot his reloads and not agonize about whether they were all right.  You can make mistakes, I can make mistakes, your brother could make mistakes and on occasion factory loaded ammo is defective and blows up guns.  In all likelihood, your brother's handloads are just as good as any you would make.

I started my son in his handgun shooting career with a T/C Contender when he was around 12 or 13.  He had been used to shooting it with a 22 LR barrel but unknown to him, I had acquired a 30/30 barrel for it.  My shooting range was right in front of my house and one day, I took the gun up to the house on some pretense, switched barrels to the 30/30, put a round in the chamber brought the gun back to the range and offered it to my son to shoot.  I told him to get a good grip.  He said, "dad, this doesn't kick bad."  You should have seen the look on his face when he touched that round off.

Mean...  Yes, I know.  It didn't turn him off though from later shooting my 50 AE.

[xphunter]

The 06 barrel will definitely have a bite, but I know a number of guys who have them and hunt with them without a brake.
Give the 06 barrel a try and you will likely be surprised in the difference of perceived recoil between it being in your hand versus your shoulder.

A fixed 4x or one of the good variables in 2-6, 2-7, 2-8 magnification range will work great for those distances.  
If you continue to hunt where you typically do a 2x fixed is a great choice.
On your Contender the two braked barrels, 30-30 and the 7x30 Waters are great out to your max distance where you hunt once you get used to shooting them in field conditions.
The 338JDJ with a brake is also good at those distances.  What bullet weight did he use for the 338 JDJ.  
The lighter the bullet he used the easier that gun will be to shoot.

One key to a shooting a TC accurately is keeping the forend pressure the same from shot to shot.  Build your ground blinds or other set-ups to where you can comfortably get a steady rest.  Be innovative and think outside the box if needed to make it work for you.
Grip the grip like you would a hammer. In other words, you don't need a death grip.
I shoot all of mine one-handed (even the ones that use almost 100 grains of powder), with my other hand holding a small leather bag that is underneath the grip.

I checked the barrels last night and I've updated the list above, including adding barrel length.  The two changes regarding brakes is that the 30-30 barrel does have a brake, and the 30.06 barrel does not.

I think I could find someone to mentor me in reloading.

Typically our deer hunting is from stands, but now that my son is going, we'll also be using ground blinds, both store-bought and one built from natural materials.  Terrain is wooded, mostly oak, aspen and scrub.  Lots of hills and ridges so it's mostly close range.  Every deer I've shot has been 60 yards or less, but there are a few swamps on the land and a 200 yard shot is possible.

[lenny7]

On your Contender the two braked barrels, 30-30 and the 7x30 Waters are great out to your max distance where you hunt once you get used to shooting them in field conditions.
The 338JDJ with a brake is also good at those distances.  What bullet weight did he use for the 338 JDJ.  
The lighter the bullet he used the easier that gun will be to shoot.

On the 7-30 he used 140gr bullets and on the 338JDJ he used 180gr and 200gr

[xphunter]

On your Contender the two braked barrels, 30-30 and the 7x30 Waters are great out to your max distance where you hunt once you get used to shooting them in field conditions.
The 338JDJ with a brake is also good at those distances.  What bullet weight did he use for the 338 JDJ.  
The lighter the bullet he used the easier that gun will be to shoot.

On the 7-30 he used 140gr bullets and on the 338JDJ he used 180gr and 200gr

Those should be manageable in the 338JDJ.
I would recommend, that once you finish up the loaded ammo in the Waters to go to a 120 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip over a 140 grain bullet.
Nothing wrong with the 140's but I have seen guys from the folks I know use the 120 NBT about more than any other bullet.