Author Topic: BP Corrosion- possible preventative  (Read 1177 times)

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Offline Winger Ed.

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BP Corrosion- possible preventative
« on: January 06, 2011, 08:04:55 PM »
In my research- I've found that there's alot of comments, replys, and concerns up & down here-
about the dangers, effects, and concerns of (BP residue) corrosion getting into the weld joints of the cannons & mortars we build.

I offer up my ideas on this subject:
A little background:
1.  I grew up in USMC Avaition.  Parris Island graduated- Class of Sept. 1973.
2.  Working on the Jet Fighters & the Helicopters of a Sea going Force-
     and, after serving almost 8 years- the last four years of it as a Shop Head/NCOIC on the Marine One crew-
     I think I've been to every Corrosion Control Class in the known Universe. 
3.  I didn't own a car for 3-4 years.  I drove motorcyles instead-- for about 100,000 miles total.
4.  I ate 'my own cook-n', and didn't get married (the first time) until I was 26.
5.  Driving motorcycles that much, going to all those Corrosion Control Schools, and maintaining my own cast Iron frying pan-
     I learned alot.


One of the things was that using the real expensive, spray cans of, "Motorcycle Chain lube"
was better than any other oil-- especially running 'cross country between Dallas, and Quantico, VA--at free way speeds.
This is REAL!! sticky, slimey, lubricating stuff.
It sticks to things like 'poop' does on a baby blanket-- and is harder to completely get off your fingers than a bugger.
After 50-60 miles, common engine or spray can oil has all flown off a properly adjusted, Yamaha 650, motorcycle chain.
Using the 'good stuff',,,,,, after 120 or so miles- the same chain is still 'wet' with it.

Another thing I learned was that the more ya cooked on a Iron fryiny pan,
the more the cooking oil sealed the pores in the Iron it was made from,
and the more it resisted rusting after it was washed and not used.


My question/idea is:
On these BB Mortars-

Since it isn't practical to fill the gap between the Breech Plug and the barrel due to corrosion concerns----
What do ya guys think of the idea of sealing the welds with oil/motorcycle chain lube?

I think it would work like sealing a old style cast Iron frying pan.
Spray the heck out of it between every few shots with that thick, oily, snot looking goop........
The chamber pressure from firing the BP would drive oil down into the weld pores instead of the highly corrosive BP gases.

Washing it between and after firing,,, you'd get all the top crud off.
Next time, spray it again: Just like like cooking with a Iron frying pan.
Oil it, use it, clean it, spray it again the next time,,and so on,,,,,

In the long run--
No self respecting rust germ would ever even think about living in a weld joint under such conditions.
"Gone are the days of wooden ships, and Iron men.
I doubt we shall ever see their likes again".
Unknown US Coast Guard Commander on the upper US East Coast.  Circa 1920

In our modern & enlightened times:
The only thing the Meek will inherit- is a Berqa.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: BP Corrosion- possible preventative
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2011, 08:15:51 PM »
Sounds possible.  If you have a screw breech gun that could be relatively easily taken apart after some number of shots for examination, you could conduct an experiment to explore this idea.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Winger Ed.

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Re: BP Corrosion- possible preventative
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2011, 08:24:43 PM »
Sounds possible.  If you have a screw breech gun

I like the idea of doing tests.
However:
My breech plug was screwed on from the outside,
at 225-250 Amps, with about 4 pounds of R70S, .035 MIG wire, shielded by a small cloud of Argon & CO2.
For doing heavy steel projects like this- I use the welder in my shop at work. 
It has a scale that goes up to it's Max. output,,, but ya can crank it a little past that.
I call that position 'Kill'.
Installing my breech plug--- Yep.  I cranked that welder up to--- 'kill'.
There ain't no taking that plug back out,, at least not very quickly.

But, in the not to distant future- 
I'd be more than happy to report any & all visual observations from looking down the barrel...

Seriously-
This post was just some rambeling thoughts & observations that I wrote down in hopes of helping someone else.
"Gone are the days of wooden ships, and Iron men.
I doubt we shall ever see their likes again".
Unknown US Coast Guard Commander on the upper US East Coast.  Circa 1920

In our modern & enlightened times:
The only thing the Meek will inherit- is a Berqa.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: BP Corrosion- possible preventative
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2011, 12:53:56 AM »
On the theoretical side, the pressures putting the corrosive stuff into the pores is more than those cleaning it off.

On the practical/emperical side, I like the idea of chain lube.  I had a can of the chain lube used for dredges - in and out of nasty river water all the time.  GREAT STUFF!

Inspection is good.  Doing a cross section after a bunch of cycles would be better.  Maybe a government grant? 
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline 0reo

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Re: BP Corrosion- possible preventative
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2011, 01:15:40 AM »
If it's steal we're talking about, how 'bout galvanizing the bore?  I can imagine plugging the vent hole and then using the mortar / cannon like a crucible to hold a small bit of molten zinc. If you're really clever you might find a way to get a bit of a vacuum inside the bore to draw air out of any crevices and there by drawing the molten zinc in.  Dump out the zinc and what you have left should be a galvanized, sealed bore.  Maybe polish up a bit with a drill & some steel wool. Done.  Probably can forget about rust for a good long while after that.

Not sure about the details of the actual process I'm suggesting above.  You'd have to do a little research on hot-dip galvanizing.  But I'm pretty sure the result would work nicely, at least back in the powder chamber where one might find cracks or crevices around the breach plug.

Offline Double D

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Re: BP Corrosion- possible preventative
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2011, 03:28:40 AM »
Chain lube is  a surface protectant.  The chain lube might work for joints like slip fits and screw threads. But shrink fit joints,  I'm not sure how well it would work there.

Welded seams and micro porosity and micro inclusions.  I'm not sure how it would work against the high pressure gas and heat of firing.  I don't think it would offer any protection for the effect of condensation inside micro pore and  micro inclusions.

I fail to see the need for chrome lining or galvanizing a cannon barrel.  For that matter the only reason, I can see to even use stainless steel for  a cannon barrel, is you got ir cheap.   My Cairo gun is made from  4140 and has been shot off and on for over 27 years.  The first 5 or 6 years it was shot a lot. The next 20 years it was fired occasionally and did did duty as a room decoration and ignored.   The past 3 years it has been fired a lot. 

Cleaning amount garden hose and swab to wipe and wash the bore and vent. The bore and vent were then dried wit a swab and left inthe sun to further dry.  The bore was oiled and put away.  I don't have any rust or corrosion problems.

I am going to change my routine a bit this year.  I am going to flush the bore with the garden hose, then swab with antifreeze and then dry. To oil I will use  NAPA ATF 4.  Both Antifreeze and ATF have anti rust and anti corrosive compnents.

Offline GLS

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Re: BP Corrosion- possible preventative
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2011, 05:17:03 AM »
Thought I would try to go high tech NASA stuff.
As a experiment I was trying a ceramic coating to try and seal the pores especially since my barrel liner was welded.  I treated before fireing the barrel to ensure no contaminates were already in the weld pores.
http://ultracoatingsinc.com/ubc.aspx
Wont know how it would have done as the if you have seen the 'need help' post the barrel did not fare well.
With only 7 blank rounds fired through it I will say that between rounds when I swabbed the bore I noticed that after one wet swab the bore was perfectly clean and shiny.  Real easy to clean. I might try this stuff again on my next cannon and will for sure do the rest of my muzzleloading guns.

Offline Double D

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Re: BP Corrosion- possible preventative
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2011, 06:11:50 AM »
All these surface protectants do not address the micro inclusions. How do you prevent the contamination from condensation of the these inclusions. 

Think about it, if it was a so simple a solution as to apply a surface protectant to eliminate the problems with a weld, it would hdve been recommended years ago.

You need to understand the problem with seamed tubes is not on the surface of the material, but in the interior.

Offline GLS

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Re: BP Corrosion- possible preventative
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2011, 07:02:02 AM »
All these surface protectants do not address the micro inclusions. How do you prevent the contamination from condensation of the these inclusions. 

Think about it, if it was a so simple a solution as to apply a surface protectant to eliminate the problems with a weld, it would hdve been recommended years ago.

You need to understand the problem with seamed tubes is not on the surface of the material, but in the interior.

I agree.  A couple of chemical engineers at the Univesity I work at made the claims that this particular bore coat would fill the micro pores.  I personnally doubt it but was willing to experiment.  It does make the clean up easier in the BP guns treated so far.  GLS

Offline Double D

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Re: BP Corrosion- possible preventative
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2011, 09:15:07 AM »
Surface micro porosity yes of course, but what about internal micro pores or inclusion.  That's the problem.

Offline Double D

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Re: BP Corrosion- possible preventative
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2011, 09:19:18 AM »
  It does make the clean up easier in the BP guns treated so far.  GLS

I don't believe it does any thing for clean-up. Clean up is clean up. Reducing the effects of poor clean-up yes, beneficial.

 

Offline 0reo

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Re: BP Corrosion- possible preventative
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2011, 01:00:19 PM »
I was under the impression that zinc galvanizing penetrated and sealed the surface micro-pores of the steel.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: BP Corrosion- possible preventative
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2011, 01:03:26 PM »
I was under the impression that zinc galvanizing penetrated and sealed the surface micro-pores of the steel.

It may.  BUT the real question is will it withstand even ONE round without cracking.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: BP Corrosion- possible preventative
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2011, 01:56:38 PM »
It may.  BUT the real question is will it withstand even ONE round without cracking.

I cannot speak from experience or education but softer materials are more likely to stretch with the underlying substrate than hard ones like chrome.  If the stretching is too much, they will crack, but I don't think a soft coating like zinc or gold would crack unless the substrate cracked.
GG
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Offline Rickk

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Re: BP Corrosion- possible preventative
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2011, 06:38:40 AM »
I spray my bores with a spray can grease when I am done cleaning them. The first blank round fired after greasing the bore always sounds louder and there is more fire than subsequent rounds. I think the grease is contributing somewhat.

Then there was the day the I fired a concrete filled 6 inch piece of 2-1/8 muffler pipe out of my 2.25" mortar. I had heavily coated the pipe with wheel bearing grease to protect the bore from the steel pipe. Even thought is was only a 100 grain 1F charge, the resulting fireball was spectacular. Again, I suspect the grease contributed.

So, I think that grease burns well in a barrel. I don't know about the stuff wedged into cracks.

Offline Winger Ed.

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Re: BP Corrosion- possible preventative
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2011, 11:00:37 PM »
Maybe a government grant? 

I like that idea.

Maybe with a few hundred million dollars worth of deficit spending,,,,, we could get this all figured out.

"Gone are the days of wooden ships, and Iron men.
I doubt we shall ever see their likes again".
Unknown US Coast Guard Commander on the upper US East Coast.  Circa 1920

In our modern & enlightened times:
The only thing the Meek will inherit- is a Berqa.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: BP Corrosion- possible preventative
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2011, 03:38:26 PM »
Maybe a government grant? 
I like that idea.
Maybe with a few hundred million dollars worth of deficit spending,,,,, we could get this all figured out.

Good thnking.  A few hundred million would never be missed in perspective of the trillions in the headlines.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
Cat Whisperer
Chief of Smoke, Pulaski Coehorn Works & Winery
U.S.Army Retired
N 37.05224  W 80.78133 (front door +/- 15 feet)

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: BP Corrosion- possible preventative
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2011, 08:32:19 AM »
I use white lithium spray grease on the threaded breech plug of one of my cannons, so that the gunk from quick temporary cleanings at the range won't get into and corrode the threads before I can get it home, and give everything a thorough cleaning, drying, and oiling.

On a breech plug that has been pinned and welded to a barrel, shouldn't the heat or pressure fit of the plug make a tight enough fit so that fluid can't get between the walls of the tube and the plug?

 
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline dan610324

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Re: BP Corrosion- possible preventative
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2011, 10:19:11 AM »
could be , maybe not
I guess that it depends on the surface quality on the 2 surfaces before the heat shrinking
with 2 rough surfaces it still could stick good to eachother but it aint sure that its leak proof .
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: BP Corrosion- possible preventative
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2011, 02:11:31 PM »
So moisture could possibly be getting between the plug and the wall causing corrosion that can't be seen; that's not a very nice thought to contemplate. I was feeling clear of having to be personally concerned about this, because I thought that other than a cannon with a threaded breech plug (that I remove everytime it's cleaned) all I've got are cannons that were made from solid stock, but then I realized that I've also got two cast cannons with steel inserts, so I suppose that I should be concerned about it.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Double D

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Re: BP Corrosion- possible preventative
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2011, 02:36:50 PM »
I don't believe this is an issue with shrink fit breech plugs.

I can tell you with my K.I.S.S. concept there is evidence of some moisture getting between the plug and the wall.  When I pulled one of the mortars apart after 4 years I was surprised how little moisture leakage there was. There was evidence of moisture leakage.  What was more surprising was there was no evidence of gas leakage.