Author Topic: Chinas new stealth fighter????  (Read 1202 times)

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Offline powderman

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Chinas new stealth fighter????
« on: January 07, 2011, 05:32:14 PM »
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While the Pentagon downplays China’s rollout this week of what appears to be a jet fighter designed using sophisticated stealth technology, military experts are warning that the aircraft – reportedly capable of besting America’s F-22 in speed and maneuverability – could pose the greatest threat yet to U.S. air superiority.

Decorated Navy fighter pilot Matthew “Whiz” Buckley, a Top Gun graduate of the Navy Fighter Weapons School who flew 44 combat missions over Iraq, says, “It’s probably leaps and bounds above where we are, and that’s terrifying.”

“As a former Navy fighter pilot, going up against something that’s stealthy, highly maneuverable and with electronic systems more capable than mine -- that’ll keep me up at night,” said Buckley, now chief strategy officer at Fox3 Options LLC.

Buckley said photos posted online of the radar-evading Chengdu J-20 jet fighter lead him to believe the aircraft has great stealth capabilities, based on what appears to be a bumpy exterior possibly housing stealth technology, and the lack of external components, such as a gas tank and missiles.

“It was built to reduce radar signatures. You can tell it has some serious stealth technology,” he said. “My F-18 looks like an 18-wheeler on radar. That thing might not even show up.”

The U.S. military's current top-of-the-line fighter is Lockheed Martin's F-22 Raptor, the world's only operational fifth generation fighter. In 2009, Congress capped production of F-22s at 18, relying on the cheaper F-35. Congress does not appear to be reconsidering the cap, which experts call the only real challenger to China’s J-20.

Richard Fisher, a senior fellow on Asian Military Affairs at the International Assessment and Strategy Center, a Washington-based security think tank, says Chinese officials have said that their program is aimed at competing with the F-22 Raptor.

“From what we can see, I conclude that this aircraft does have great potential to be superior in some respects to the American F-22, and could be decisively superior to the F-35,” said Fisher.

Fisher in particular pointed to the Chengdu J-20’s stealth technology and ability to super cruise, or fly supersonically without using fuel-guzzling afterburners. He said it has super maneuverability due to its thrust-vectored engines that allow for sharp turns.

And while the J-20's engine is still in development, Fisher said it's supposed to deliver 15 to 18 tons of thrust, more powerful than the F-22.

“This fighter will likely start entering service in serious numbers by the end of this decade. The Chinese can accelerate this event by purchasing new Russian engines and settling for a lesser capability,” Fisher said.

Experts say it’s hard to say exactly what the J-20’s capabilities are, especially in a fire fight -- but offered a dire prediction: “With China having a fifth generation fighter, the U.S. will lose F-22s faster than previous estimates.”

As for the J-20 pilots, Fisher said the Chinese Air Force has over 500 fourth generation fighters and is making pilot training a priority.
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“China's air training capabilities have increased greatly over the last decade, to include multiple levels of aircraft, better simulators, and more realistic air combat exercises. They will be able to train pilots for their fifth generation combat force,” Fisher said.

Buckley says the U.S. has moved in the opposite direction, dramatically reducing flight-time training for its fighter pilots, choosing instead to use cheaper flight stimulators.

Limiting F-22 production could prove a grave mistake, Fisher said.

Referring to the J-20 photos -- and a new video of the fighter taxiing on a runway -- Fisher said: “There is now every justification for us to be building modernized version of F-22 and to consider capability enhancements for the F-35 that preserve its competitiveness into next decade."

The next generation joint strike fighter is supposed to be the F-35, Buckley said, which is built for use by all services and must encompass the specific and different needs of the Navy, Air Force, Marines.

“When you try to make a jack of all trades, you have tradeoffs,” Buckley said. “It’s obvious that the Chinese are throwing money and technology to making something the best, and here we’re worried that one is going to bankrupt the country.”

“We used be No. 1 at having the leading technology. ... Now, we’re kind of in catch-up mode, where we’ve never really been before.”

They have been quietly building up their military might for years. POWDERMAN.  :o :o
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Offline Pat/Rick

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Re: Chinas new stealth fighter????
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2011, 06:33:58 PM »
Not really all that quietly. Its more a case of folks here deniability to the issue that another nation could field just as powerfull military as the US. Three ship loads of scrap iron was leaving the west coast a week just a couple of years ago, the prc is raping east africa of resources, our insatiable lust for cheap goods has been fueling chinas industry that is owned by the military, they are curently in construction of a vast navy.I gotta wonder ho much the chinese got ahold of when they were in Los Alamos, courtesy of komerad klinton? What info did they get when madeline halfbright lost her three state dept computers?  The Art of War by Sun Tzu should be required reading in all high schools. The asians do not need the instant gratification of spoiled westerners, they got decades if not centiries to obtain their goals. Somebody been playing chess/somebody been playing checkers.   :o

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Chinas new stealth fighter????
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2011, 07:06:18 PM »
Not really all that quietly. Its more a case of folks here deniability to the issue that another nation could field just as powerfull military as the US. Three ship loads of scrap iron was leaving the west coast a week just a couple of years ago, the prc is raping east africa of resources, our insatiable lust for cheap goods has been fueling chinas industry that is owned by the military, they are curently in construction of a vast navy.I gotta wonder ho much the chinese got ahold of when they were in Los Alamos, courtesy of komerad klinton? What info did they get when madeline halfbright lost her three state dept computers?  The Art of War by Sun Tzu should be required reading in all high schools. The asians do not need the instant gratification of spoiled westerners, they got decades if not centiries to obtain their goals. Somebody been playing chess/somebody been playing checkers.   :o

+1 That sums it up pretty well I'd say.

Offline FourBee

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Re: Chinas new stealth fighter????
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2011, 07:58:52 PM »
Makes sense why our gasoline is going up lately, and may not stop for awhile.  What with China' economy growing.  More automobiles to gas up.  They're even buying up our Pecan crops, and their prices are already high.... ::)
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Offline Mohawk

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Re: Chinas new stealth fighter????
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2011, 12:52:26 AM »
I have never met a USAF person that has ever been impressed with Chinese aircraft. "Led-Sled" is a common term. They heavily lean toward quanity instead of quality. And besides, if we went to war with China they would launch their 12 ICBM,s and we would respond. No worries about stealth then.

Offline Mohawk

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Re: Chinas new stealth fighter????
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2011, 01:18:41 AM »
And Congress didn't cap F 22 numbers. Secretary of Defense did. China's biggest fear is our nuclear subs I think. The J- 20 aint much good if it can't get off the ground. And I doubt their tech is far beyond ours. This "announcement" of a new fighter is just China saying "Thanks World for buying Chinese". That's it. And I would bet a year's salary that the US has detection cabilities of this aircraft already.

Offline guzzijohn

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Re: Chinas new stealth fighter????
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2011, 02:10:27 AM »
Although it bares watching China is still having a lot of technology problems with their jet engines and I would guess in other high tech areas. Also remember that the Chinese have a history of use of deception against their enemies and this could be that. We need to be careful that we do not let the Chinese or the Russians trick us into defense spending ourselves broke like we did to the Russians in the 80s.
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Chinas new stealth fighter????
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2011, 02:20:33 AM »
I have never met a USAF person that has ever been impressed with Chinese aircraft. "Led-Sled" is a common term. They heavily lean toward quanity instead of quality. And besides, if we went to war with China they would launch their 12 ICBM,s and we would respond. No worries about stealth then.

You've met one now.  We needed more F-22s, but now we are stuck with the economy model F-35 which is junk.

Every system we have is filled with electronics that are only made in China.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline jlwilliams

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Re: Chinas new stealth fighter????
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2011, 03:14:09 AM »
  I seem to remember reading recently that China's submarine fleet was soon to outnumber the US sub fleet.

  We can delude ourselves into thinking we will always be on top.  "Sure, they may have more but we still have better......"  Truth is, we are RAPIDLY sliding backwards from the top in every category.  At the same time, China is agressively climbing up.  They are lean, hungry, and trying hard.  Looking around, particularly at our youth and our education system; I'm seeing more and more that Our Great Nation is less and less capable of fighting that fight.  Kids graduate with a diploma from high school and are more or less unemployable.  They can't even write in complete sentences.  They text.  Oh, I'm sorry.. they txt.  Pitiful.  Our 'leaders' squander our treasure on worthless stupidity while Rome burns.

  This example of China bringing out a new, advanced fighter while our government cheaps out and underproduces our best defense is a prime example of what I mean.  Lord knows we can't tighten the belt on stupid, worthless money sucking programs just to make room in the budget for more military hardware.  Why keep our martial edge when the voters are clambering for more funding for such vital programs as transexual performing arts, or whatever.  We won't fix our education system.  We won't update out weapons systems.  We will watch as those who will do those things take the steering wheel and drive the next century.

Offline magooch

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Re: Chinas new stealth fighter????
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2011, 03:35:34 AM »
The Chinese might have their super jet fighter, but we now have our OQF, so no fears.  Oh, what is OQF?  Outed Queer Force--they can and will lick anything.
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Offline powderman

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Re: Chinas new stealth fighter????
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2011, 06:03:16 AM »
The Chinese might have their super jet fighter, but we now have our OQF, so no fears.  Oh, what is OQF?  Outed Queer Force--they can and will lick anything.



HEH. POWDERMAN.  :D :D :D :D :D :D
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Offline Mohawk

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Re: Chinas new stealth fighter????
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2011, 08:44:21 AM »
Any war with China is a nuclear war. I don't see any other solution.

Offline jlwilliams

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Re: Chinas new stealth fighter????
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2011, 12:31:18 PM »
The Chinese might have their super jet fighter, but we now have our OQF, so no fears.  Oh, what is OQF?  Outed Queer Force--they can and will lick anything.

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Offline The Hermit

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Re: Chinas new stealth fighter????
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2011, 05:40:39 PM »
No problem. With the US relying on Russia for our space program, all we have to do is buy a bunch of those jets(on credit of course), and we're all set.
All we have to do is talk them into buying some more of our treasuries. By the way, the Chinese just unveiled a new missle designed to sink any ship we got. Lets order a couple of them too.


  The Hermit

Offline SteveHawaii

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Re: Chinas new stealth fighter????
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2011, 06:07:02 PM »
Not really much of a surprise, except to the popular media.  The Defense Department has been expecting a 5th generation stealth fighter from China for some time now (if you follow the aviation journals).  Maybe the real surprised is the leaked photos.  Not much of a threat to us.  Taiwan yes.  The US, no.  The real problem is numbers.  Try going against say one stealth fighter and 100 Mig-15 drones, and you only have 50 missiles.  Guess who looses.
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Offline mrussel

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Re: Chinas new stealth fighter????
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2011, 06:17:29 PM »
No problem. With the US relying on Russia for our space program, all we have to do is buy a bunch of those jets(on credit of course), and we're all set.
All we have to do is talk them into buying some more of our treasuries. By the way, the Chinese just unveiled a new missle designed to sink any ship we got. Lets order a couple of them too.


  The Hermit

 Seriously,whose word are we taking that these things are better than the state of the art weapons we are developing now? The Chinese? Did they let our people tear it apart? I didn't think so. Remember,this new jet is something they are just developing now,not deploying. The F22 is deployed. The stuff we are developing now are unmanned,fully autonomous fighter drones. Lets see a human pull 30Gs. Everyone pretty much knows (except the fighter pilots who are in denial) that the next generation of aircraft will be fully autonomous drones. Unless this Chinese super jet gets rid of the meat like our next generation designs do,its behind the curve.

 Seriously,even if a top notch skilled pilot in a state of the art aircraft can take one,it does not matter. You just uncrate 10 and send them. They take out four and you uncrate more,but every pilot they lose takes years to replace. The next generations big advance isn't going to be better performance or speed or maneuverability. Its going to be replacing the pilot with a computer. No more training,you can churn them out on an assembly line by the tens of thousands and overwhelm your enemy,all without having to worry about pictures in the media of tortured and beaten pilots taken prisoner. Dangerous missions become common place. Who cares if you suffer 90% losses to take out that heavily defended air defense command center. Who cares if the enemy is scoring 2:1 victories over your fighters,when you can just pull more out of the crates.

 Remember how during every war,the enemy always brags (or lies) about how many of our aircraft they shot down. Remember in Kosovo when they got one of our F117s. I remember thinking at first,"yea right,they always say that" then seeing the distinctive tail in the wreckage and being shocked that they actually got one.  In Iraq the predator drones were big news and the Iraqis would brag daily about shooting them down. I recall thinking "so what,well just make more"

Offline Swampman

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Re: Chinas new stealth fighter????
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2011, 02:20:31 AM »
Drones can hit stationary targets sometimes.  They can't dogfight.

Sinking a ship has been easy for hundreds of years.
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Offline Conan The Librarian

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Re: Chinas new stealth fighter????
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2011, 02:33:35 AM »
I suppose the pentagon is also downplaying chinas regional supremacy in submarine warfare, it's pan-Asiatic naval supremacy, it's nuclear weapons capability, it's increasing wealth, its missiles that neutralize the value of US aircraft carriers within range of china, its effective monopolization of many raw materials needed for high tech manufacturing, the shift toward the yuan as the currency of trade, and the US inability to afford even what amounts to a small anti-insurgency effort in afghanistan. Yep, nothing to worry about.


Swamp man:
True, and the surface navies are increasingly vulnerable today. Meanwhile submarines are increasingly valuable weapons. Other countries, even Spain and France are building a lot of conventional subs today. What is the US doing? You guessed it: we still operate a small fleet of aging cold war nukes and have effectively shut down not just submarine manufacturing, but also submarine research and development.

As for any perception that these Chinese fighters are in some way inferior to US jets, what does it matter? If US can't get a fighter within range of China, US fighters are worthless in that theater. The real value of such a plane is in augmenting china's missile defenses. With this stealth plane, Chinese can get mighty close to US ships and be undetected.

I was just refreshing my memory on the Los Angeles class subs that are the US main fighting subs. Each takes a crew of about 130. The new generations of comparable subs being built in Europe now need a crew of only about 30.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Chinas new stealth fighter????
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2011, 10:44:49 AM »
You can go too fast and not be able to turn until you reach the next country.
If one thinks that America is the only one in these races it would be good to take your head out of the sand and brush it out of your eyes----you see much better thataway.
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Offline powderman

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Re: Chinas new stealth fighter????
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2011, 11:58:31 AM »
You can go too fast and not be able to turn until you reach the next country.
If one thinks that America is the only one in these races it would be good to take your head out of the sand and brush it out of your eyes----you see much better thataway.
Blessings
[/quote



WILLIAM. Agreed Sir. China has been too quiet  for too long. POWDERMAN.  :o :o
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Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Chinas new stealth fighter????
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2011, 12:06:20 PM »
My question is very simple. While so many other countries are increasing the strength of their militaries why is it our government is continualy decreasing the strength of ours? As for not being impressed with a weapon, since when did you need to be impressed with one for it to kill you? Any weapon deserves serious respect!

Offline mirage1988

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Re: Chinas new stealth fighter????
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2011, 01:05:45 PM »
Why would we go to war with china? Our "leaders" have sold us out to the chinese and the only way we can repay our debt to them is with our resources (oil reserves).
China is developing their military to defend their resources (our oil) from the rest of the world since our "leaders" have tied the hands of our own military.
 

Offline Swampman

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Re: Chinas new stealth fighter????
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2011, 01:21:17 PM »
Why would we go to war with china?

We won't have a choice.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Chinas new stealth fighter????
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2011, 01:31:04 PM »

mirage1988 - Sorry to go off topic but are those Boxer pups in your avatar? I've a male Boxer and my son has two Boxers. Mines 10 months old and a handful! Loves to eat phone books!  :D


Offline mirage1988

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Re: Chinas new stealth fighter????
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2011, 02:11:26 PM »
Spirithawk-
They are boxers, here is a pic of the last litter we had, last one is going to her new home tomorrow.

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Chinas new stealth fighter????
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2011, 02:47:10 PM »
Great looking pups. Thanks for the pic. :)

Offline mirage1988

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Re: Chinas new stealth fighter????
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2011, 03:31:53 PM »
Thanks SH-
Boxers are great dogs aren't they?
Heres their mom-

Offline FourBee

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Re: Chinas new stealth fighter????
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2011, 03:47:29 PM »
 
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Spirithawk  ~   My question is very simple. While so many other countries are increasing the strength of their militaries why is it our government is continualy decreasing the strength of ours?

Good question.   Maybe WE know something they don't......
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Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Chinas new stealth fighter????
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2011, 03:54:40 PM »
 
Quote
Spirithawk  ~   My question is very simple. While so many other countries are increasing the strength of their militaries why is it our government is continualy decreasing the strength of ours?

Good question.   Maybe WE know something they don't......

Orrrrrrrr our own government is selling us out.

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Chinas new stealth fighter????
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2011, 04:41:58 PM »
 
Quote
Spirithawk  ~   My question is very simple. While so many other countries are increasing the strength of their militaries why is it our government is continualy decreasing the strength of ours?

Good question.   Maybe WE know something they don't......

Orrrrrrrr our own government is selling us out.

I would go with that one!
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