Reality check

[Mike in Virginia]

We choose guns and calibers for defense based on both facts and pre-conceived notions.  We play out scenarios in our head and justify what we carry based on what might happen in our fantasies.  That's okay, because the most that our fantasies can cost us is carrying a bigger gun than we'll ever need.  Carrying too much gun has no downside when trouble erupts, but it has lots of downsides at any other time. 

My point is, if you are not LE, if you carry only to protect yourself and your loved ones, you will NEVER need to shoot someone with your carry gun at long distance.  It doesn't happen in the real world to non-LE citizens. That's why we have rifles in our homes.  If civil unrest escaltes to where your home is approached by a mob, you need a rifle to take them out before they get close.  Your carry gun won't do that, and it will NEVER be called upon for that kind of chore.  Even if you live in the country with open spaces on every side, you won't be shooting at people until they are very close and are an actual life/death threat. 

Same thing on the street.  If you have sufficient distance between you and danger, you can take cover or leave the area.  If your carry gun will shoot into the torso at 75 feet, you have way more than you'll ever need, in terms of accuracy.  I have concluded the best carry guns are compact.  If you carry a full size 1911 or an N frame Smith, you are no doubt well armed, but you are toting more size and weight that can be rationalized by a reasonable person.  Small group size from a carry gun, IMO, is nice, but useless. 

What is your opinion?     

[jimster]

Well, my opinion is I carry lots of different guns concealed, depending on where I am, the settings, or situations. Revolvers of different sizes, and auto's of different sizes, all depends. I am proficient with all my guns, long or short, light or heavy. Compact and light is nice with warm weather, a good belt and holster is no problem for the full size guns for me in different settings. Far as never needing to shoot your handgun at longer range no matter what the setting or situation...I just say, never say never. Which is why I still like to shoot long range target and plinking...just to keep up on it never hurts. I personally find the 1911 with some good sights one of the best for all around use in the populated places, and a J frame size revolver in really hot weather is OK for me in populated places as well.  Country type settings, in very small towns under the right settings, a single action with a short barrel could also be with me, depending on weather, surroundings and such things.

My point is, if you are not LE, if you carry only to protect yourself and your loved ones, you will NEVER need to shoot someone with your carry gun at long distance.

Not sure what you mean by this...if you mean an LE might have to shoot someone at long range with his handgun...but nobody else ever will...I would say whatever happened to him could also happen to me, So I guess I could be in the same boat as an LE in that regard. Not sure what you meant though. So excuse me if I got it wrong. 

[Savage]

I carry a pocket .380 or a compact 9mm about 90% of the time. It is my hope that I never have to use either one on an attacker. I carry the smaller guns because I have become complacent and lazy since my retirement. If I were to NEED a gun, and could only use a handgun, I'd want the biggest, high capacity one I could get. IMO we should all carry the most powerful, accurate one possible. While the likelihood of a long range encounter is unlikely it is not beyond the realm of possibility. I shoot my full size pistols at long range frequently with good result. It's certainty no handicap to have that capability. I know I should carry a larger pistol more frequently. Guess I'm gambling I won't need one. I've never heard of anyone surviving a gunfight wishing they had used a smaller gun, or had less ammunition. 
Savage

[trotterlg]

Yes, but I am betting there are a lot of people who wish they had a tiny gun in their pocket and not the big gun in the desk at home.  Larry

[LocnLod]

I have concluded the best carry guns are compact.  If you carry a full size 1911 or an N frame Smith, you are no doubt well armed, but you are toting more size and weight that can be rationalized by a reasonable person.  Small group size from a carry gun, IMO, is nice, but useless. 

What is your opinion?     

OK, so not only do you think that accuracy in a carry gun is useless, but you think that people that carry full sized guns are unreasonable?  Nice.

[Spirithawk]

My main carry is a Kel Tec PF-9. 1) because of ease of carry and concealment 2) 9mm is an acceptable self defense caliber and 3) because the PF-9 is more accurate than many much larger semi auto handguns and at longer distances.

My feelings on the subject....NEVER SAY NEVER! Being prepared for anything is better than finding yourself unprepared and thus maybe dead. As I keep saying. Better to have and not need than to need and not have!

[LocnLod]

Also, props to Savage for being honest!!!

[Savage]

Although I'm not a huge fan of Clint Smith. I'm sure his skills and knowledge of handgun use far exceed mine. I do however, agree with his carry gun philosophy: "A Handgun is not supposed to be Comfortable, but Comforting" 
Having considered the above, perhaps I should carry the compact nine more often---------. But, then my Officer's size 1911, or Glock 19, isn't a LOT bigger. Hmmmmmm, hate it when I start second guessing myself!!
Savage

[mcwoodduck]

I think you can classify handguns into;
Target
Hunting
Duty
Carry
and
Novelty.
Target guns are just that, over sized with over sized everything sights, mag wells, mage release, slide release, barrels....  Basiclly IPDA type guns, olympic , or other target shoots in mind when the gun was put together.
The hunting gun are usually large bore longer barrels with adjustable sights.  Specials or light loads are used in place of the heavy hunting load.
Duty guns are full sized guns  4 to 5 inch barrels in standard calibers 9mm,38 Super, 357 Sig, 357 mag, 40, and 45  these are you full sized 1911, sig P226, Beretta 92's and the Glock 17 ect.
The cary guns are chopped and bobbed versions ofthe duty guns or special designed for carry with rounded edges.
The officer models, the glock 26, the Detective special and J framed revolvers.  Most still in a duty caliber (380, 38 Special and up)  Even a 32 ACp in the form of a Walther PP or Colt 1903.
The novelty guns are tiny things that are are tiny, made to be hide out guns.  Some are funtional and somewhat easy to shoot some are not,
in 22 LR and up to 380.  Micro autos, micro revolvers, derrengers, and anything that looks like it should be on a key chain, belt buckle or for Defensive Barbie is in this catagory.
I think what you carry is going to depend on what you see as a threat, where you are and what clothing you wear.
When I lived in Southern CA and walked the dog in the morning I carried a novelty gun, a small Walther TPH in 22 LR for three reasons.  1 it was loud, 2 my threats were Coyote, and 3 Wearing shorts in the desert heat I needed to Hide the gun. Protection for the dog more then me and the loud noise was more what I wanted than to have dead yotes.
When I lived in Va I carried a Sig P230 as I was on a bike and needed it to be compact and hiden but large enough to grab and use.  Protection against being a target of oppertunity while on my way to and from work.
When I had my live threatened I had my P 226 with spare mags on me. I was a target and being hunted.  I met two guys with baseball bates in front of my apartment that did not want me to testafy against the Roderick Peoples for stealing my Jeep. 
No matter what you want to carry, practice with it.  Be able to get the gun out and on target quickly and safely. Having a novelty gun jammed in your front pocket while you are sitting is not gojng to come out smooth or safe.  Be able to make multiple hits quickly.  Go shoot IDPA with your carry gun.  There is nothing better to get you used to drawing and shooting.  If you need a gun so much will e going on that drills and mussle memmory will help you.

[Savage]

Good advice, shooting IDPA with your "Real" carry gun. The "BUG" matches are not very realistic as each string is started at "Low Ready". Good job classifying handguns. I might also add that some guns fall in more than one classification. I know more than a few whose duty gun is also their carry gun. Then there are guns than sorta overlap categories. I consider the Glock 19 and the Commander size pistols to be examples. Most of us could carry a larger gun. I think most of us don't want to bother with the carry system required to carry anything larger than a pocket gun. I know I have been guilty. Many times I'm out with a 7 shot .380 or 9mm without even a spare magazine. Perhaps that means we don't really believe that someday we might actually have to use our carry gun? If I left the house today, knowing I was going to be in a gunfight with a handgun, which one would I carry? I can tell you for sure, it wouldn't be my P3AT or PF9.
Savage

[SHOOTALL]

My opinion is you have no idea what you will face when you go in public . My opinion is I don't trust my like to mouse guns . Not my opinion but fact I have been shot at on the river by a guy with a rifle . Either he was a poor shot or was just trying to worry us. The hand gun we had was not enough I felt under gunned. Again fact I have been on the recieving end of automatic gun fire in down town Richmond ( it happened alot a few years back gun fire not me getting shot at) . Not sure who was the target but a small gun offered little comfort. In the Richmond area on I 95 , I 64 and I 85 road rage is popular again a mouse gun dosen't make one feel all warm and fuzzy. I have been caught in one roit while working . Most see these thing on TV or hear about them on Radio . But there are those lucky ones who happen to be where they start no warning . Same thing happened with a storm in the Atlantic once.
 I have no clue how having a larger gun can be a bad thing in a gun fight , sorry .
 If you have suficent distance you can take cover . Key word is IF . If you are in a parking lot ? If you are in a park ? Anytime if is involved I error on the worst side of if.
group size at the range gives a picture of the guns accuracy. In it one finds confidence in the weapon . Compact is good , but compact and powerful are better . Just my opinions .
 I agree that shooting at someone far away could be bad in court. And leaving or cover are better choices but its not 100% either can be accomplished.
I find a 340 pd is a good carry gun and when clothing or in a vehicle allows backing it up with a bigger more powerful gun works for me.
Before anyone can suggest what others should carry they should check out the the needs in the area.

[mcwoodduck]

Savage Thanks,  Yea a few guns can be in multiple catagories and in some cases the novelty class can move up depending on your size.  The Walther TPH that I like and can shoot will not work in my friends hands as he is too large to hold the thing.  My Colt Detective special is about as amall of a gun as he can shoot and still hit anything.  My Ex Girfriend loved the TPH and the P230 and they fit her pitite frame.
If I knew I were going to be in a gun fight today, not sure I would leave the house or at least take an M1A tank to work, but we can not live like that.  Odds are in your favor that you are not going to be in one.
You look at you risks, heading to the office, post office, bank, grocery store, restaraunt and what have you as you go through your day.
the idea of having a gun with you is either going to get you out of trouble or get you really deep into it.
Your 7 rounds of 380, statistically are more than enough.  Most gun fights do not go more than 6 rounds total.  But hten you look at the Hollywood shoot out and if you were somehow involved it something like that 7 rounds are not going to do much.
It is the group shooter that is the most dangerous to me.  Walking into a mall, school, meeting, office or other and trying to, well not sure what the truly crazy want to do.  This is where your gun is going to be effective in ending the shootings.  If you are alert, do not look like prey most preditors are going to leave you alone.  But I just fell into the same misgivings the original poster of this thread said, I am making similar assumptions as to what would or could happen.  Again why I like IDPA as the people setting up the matches are setting up different senerios that you may not have thought about.  And seeing and shooting it will give you a leg up if confronted with it in real life.
But in my life a moron trying to make a name for himself, wanting to go to Paradise and taking as many infidels with him.
I am not large, a little fat but I do walk around with my head up and moving.  I look back at people that look at me and I do not make it a point ot go to the ATM late at night across the street from the drug dealers.  If I need cash for the day or week, I get it in the AM headed to work or out on my way for the weekend in the AM or I will take an early lunch and go to the bank before the noon rush.  I get the bulk of cash and head to my car where I put a few $20 in my front pocket and the rest in the wallet.  If people want to rob me they see me pull up to $60 out of my front pocket to pay for things.  As I need more I reload my pocket knife that I use as a money clip from the wallet.
If at some time I do have my head up my ... And am confronted with someone holding a gun trying to rob me, I am not going to out draw someone holding a gun.  Just hand over the wallet, watch, cell phone, or cash and hide the fact that I am armed (if I am).  Most likely it will be the pocket knife with the $60 that I am throwing and running in the oppisite direction looking for cover. If he has a knife, different story.  Open a little distance , pull a gun get a good discription, see if he still there to drop the knife, and call the police.

[Savage]

mcwoodduck,
Always wise to avoid dangerous situations and places. I try my best to do the same. You just gave a good example of an event when you might need to make a longer than statistical shot to end a bad event. Any place there are a lot of people can be targeted by suicidal nuts such as the one in Arizona, as well as the ones in schools, churches, and malls around the country. A well placed shot from a legally armed person could have saved lives in all of them. I am reasonably proficient with my smaller carry guns, but for a potentially longer shot such as one that might present itself in a mall, or other crowded area, I'd feel a lot more comfortable with a full size pistol that I shoot a LOT better. NEVER & FOREVER are two words I rarely use.   
Stay Safe, Savage

[mcwoodduck]

After some shoots we kjoke around and shoot handguns out at the 200 yard line. at the gong or even at clay birds.
With a little practice you can get really good quickly.
I still have not hit a clay bird with the Det Special or the P230 yet but I am reall close.
Hitting the 20" gong is kind of easy.
one day i was frustrated not being able to hit a clay bird at the 200 yard mark, I was missing but not by much and was throwing dirt all over the bird i was trying to hit.  The guy standing next to me said he would be thinking twice of shooting at me from that distance with a rifle.
I think if you were in a mall and even if you could not make a head shot to end any thing (assuming the guy would stand still)
tossing a few rounds close enough to him may change his plans and allow other to get away.

[Savage]

I try to end my range trips with the same exercise. The 100yd gong is a given. Well,------------most of the time! lol. The 200 is doable, but requires good trigger control. You are indeed correct! Few realize how well you can hit with a handgun at extended range. I normally shoot what I have with me. That's my IDPA guns, so it could be a 9mm/.40/.45. I enjoy shooting at extended ranges just for grins. Of course it's good practice as well. Sometimes rifle shooters are surprised to see anyone shooting a pistol at that range. Often, the looks on their faces says it all.
Savage

[Casull]

because the PF-9 is more accurate than many much larger semi auto handguns and at longer distances.

Please explain.

[Spirithawk]

because the PF-9 is more accurate than many much larger semi auto handguns and at longer distances.

Please explain.

For such a short barrel the PF-9 is surprisingly accurate. Not just my words but of almost everyone whos fired one. I've read quite a few reviews where the PF-9 was taken to a range with other handguns such as the XD's and Glocks, just to name a couple, and the PF-9 proved itself consistantly more accurate. I've done so myself with friends as well comparing the PF-9 to their semi auto handguns. It's not just been compared to more exspensive handguns, but also larger calibers as well, and again got better groups than most. People are also stating that they are getting consistant hits on human silhouette type targets at ranges out to 50 yards, which I concider pretty darn accurate for as small a handgun as the PF-9. I don't figure to be making those kind of shots in normal self defense situations but if the PF-9 is accurate at those ranges then it's plenty accurate even closer. You don't have to take my word for it, just do an online search for PF-9 reviews and read not just what the guys that write reviews for a living say but also what PF-9 owners are saying. Not saying that it's more accurate than a long barreled revolver but not talking revolvers.

[Mike in Virginia]

Shootall brings up a good point, and I stand corrected.   He was shot at while on a river.  I make lots of float trips in the summer, fishing.  If I were shot at from the bank, I can easily imagine that the distance might be more than 25 yards.  I'd want a gun with me that could shoot back.  I take back my earlier statement of NEVER needing long distance capability.  If I were on the water in a canoe, with no means to quickly take cover, I'd definitley need a gun that could reach my assailant.     

[Savage]

Short barreled guns are not inherently less accurate. Accuracy is more a product of a number of other factors such as repeatability of lockup, and barrel quality/condition. In short, in a Ransom rest, and two identical pistols, (No Such Thing) the short barreled pistol might group better than the longer one due to barrel harmonics, tighter lockup, or other factors. The primary accuracy problem with short barreled guns is found in the difficulty of accurate shooting due to the size/weight/short sight radius. Compound that with the poor sights and trigger of most small pistols and they are really hard to shoot accurately. My PF9 is likely to be capable of better groups than I can hold, although I consider the 5" 25yd groups mine shoots from a rest to be acceptable for a backup pistol. I can easily go to my Glock 22 and more than cut those groups in half, due to the longer sight radius, better sights, and better trigger. The trigger likely being the most critical factor here. (The trigger on my 22 is not stock, although a stock Glock trigger is better than any of my KTs.) Single action triggers are the way to go for maximum accuracy, IMO. Mine pretty much can group better than the Glocks by a large margin. For a precise shot at distance, a 5" 1911 would be my first choice, and it's easier for me to conceal than my full size Glocks, but has limited ammo capacity.  So, if I am making a choice of full size pistols, I must choose between best accuracy, reasonably accurate but large ammo capacity, or a smaller gun with limited ammo capacity, less powerful, less accurate, but more comfortable to carry. Maybe I need to carry one of each--------
Savage

[Spirithawk]

Short barreled guns are not inherently less accurate. Accuracy is more a product of a number of other factors such as repeatability of lockup, and barrel quality/condition. In short, in a Ransom rest, and two identical pistols, (No Such Thing) the short barreled pistol might group better than the longer one due to barrel harmonics, tighter lockup, or other factors. The primary accuracy problem with short barreled guns is found in the difficulty of accurate shooting due to the size/weight/short sight radius. Compound that with the poor sights and trigger of most small pistols and they are really hard to shoot accurately. My PF9 is likely to be capable of better groups than I can hold, although I consider the 5" 25yd groups mine shoots from a rest to be acceptable for a backup pistol. I can easily go to my Glock 22 and more than cut those groups in half, due to the longer sight radius, better sights, and better trigger. The trigger likely being the most critical factor here. (The trigger on my 22 is not stock, although a stock Glock trigger is better than any of my KTs.) Single action triggers are the way to go for maximum accuracy, IMO. Mine pretty much can group better than the Glocks by a large margin. For a precise shot at distance, a 5" 1911 would be my first choice, and it's easier for me to conceal than my full size Glocks, but has limited ammo capacity.  So, if I am making a choice of full size pistols, I must choose between best accuracy, reasonably accurate but large ammo capacity, or a smaller gun with limited ammo capacity, less powerful, less accurate, but more comfortable to carry. Maybe I need to carry one of each--------
Savage

Interesting and thanks. I agree that for accuracy it's hard to beat a single action. When I chose the PF-9 for my primary carry I did so because of it's many features rather than one. I had been carrying just a P-32 and wanted something with a bit more range and punch and the P-32 for back up.  I have trouble seeing most sights but for some reason I have no trouble at all with the PF-9's. That was a big plus for me. Also, I normally don't shoot double actions all that acurately but I find the PF-9's trigger comfortable and no problem. Not sure why. But getting back to range, I feel it will shoot accurately at any reasonable range I might need it too. I too have ran into trouble on float trips. That's why I also carry a rifle when on one.  

[S.S.]

Group size is useless   Now that is interesting!
"Sorry about shooting up the street JUDGE I was aiming
at the car-jacker and hit the pre-school by mistake"...
I will say that if one cannot hit what they are aiming at
then they have no business carrying a firearm.
Say you walk in on a robbery at your local gas station
and the robber grabs the cashier (A very Pregnant young lady)
and uses her as a shield to take a shot at you! All you can see
of him are from his eyes up. I think group size would
be quite important then. I am not being an A$$ here but am completely serious.
I have had many rounds fired at me in anger, most missed
and a couple didn't so I am very familiar with how these scenarios play out!
An inaccurate handgun (or Shooter) is an accident waiting to happen .

[SHOOTALL]

Shootall brings up a good point, and I stand corrected.   He was shot at while on a river.  I make lots of float trips in the summer, fishing.  If I were shot at from the bank, I can easily imagine that the distance might be more than 25 yards.  I'd want a gun with me that could shoot back.  I take back my earlier statement of NEVER needing long distance capability.  If I were on the water in a canoe, with no means to quickly take cover, I'd definitley need a gun that could reach my assailant.     

Its one of those times when one realizes they have little control over their destiny . Since you are from Va. it was the James above Scottsville float.

[mcwoodduck]

Group size is useless   Now that is interesting!
"Sorry about shooting up the street JUDGE I was aiming
at the car-jacker and hit the pre-school by mistake"...
I will say that if one cannot hit what they are aiming at
then they have no business carrying a firearm.
Say you walk in on a robbery at your local gas station
and the robber grabs the cashier (A very Pregnant young lady)
and uses her as a shield to take a shot at you! All you can see
of him are from his eyes up. I think group size would
be quite important then. I am not being an A$$ here but am completely serious.
I have had many rounds fired at me in anger, most missed
and a couple didn't so I am very familiar with how these scenarios play out!
An inaccurate handgun (or Shooter) is an accident waiting to happen .

I am going to jump in here on this for a second.
I agree Group size is unimportant when it comes to the pistol/ revolver.
What the gun can do from a rest has little bearing on what it will do in your hand.
Most of the handguns out there will outshoot the shooters.
I for one cna not shoot the glock full size gun.  The grip angle is just wrong for me.  With practice I can do OK with them but it just feels wrong in my hand.  The gun is awsome but I can not drive it and no matter how accurate the gun is I can not make them work and my group size suffers, usually vertically.  Take another brand equal in craftmanship and I can make it work.  I have shot the X out of targets with my Sig P220S. not hit the X but all 10 rounds in the X.  Not saying the sig is a better gun I am just able to drive it better.
The grip and how it fits in your hand, the length of pull, and the sight radius have more to do with your accuracy than the gun's tolerances and bench accuracy.
I do agree with you that shot placement and the ability of someone to hit what they are aiming at with a particular handgun is paramount to what you carry.  shooting the gun gun in real world positions is important.
When I was on the Valley Forge Millatary Academy Pistol team in High School we shot against other Military Academys.  One day the Coast Guard academy team showed up and Half of our team was high schoo lthe other half was Junior College.  We all sighted in and ran a mini match in our sight in process making notes that on  rapid fire I squeezed the gun and i should make a click here or there.
The Coasties came into the range and everyone of them rested their guns on the bench and sighted them in, adjusted sights and were filling the 10 ring with holes.  The guns they had were top of the line and we won by a huge margin.  I do not think their top shooter beat our 2nd string guys.  We shot real world, they shot for accuracy and group size. 

[williamlayton]

I tend to think that what we are talking about here is not shooting wildly.
I don't think I would attempt a 5 yard shot in a crowded McDonalds ubless it were absolutely clear in my mind that it was necessary to protect me or others from death or injury.
I agree whole heartily that shot placement is a good thing---but---well, but.
Blessings

[SHOOTALL]

If you use your sights instead of point shooting at typical defense range ( contact to 5-6 feet ) group size may not be important anyway.  I would suggest that those serious about self defense get a timmer and do a real reality check on how fast they can draw and fire a shot that would stand a chance at stopping an attack. If you start close ( some even strike the target as they draw like in reality) and go to 15 yards . One you will learn when you need to use the sights with regard to distance. Two test are - a 3X5 index card at eye level at 7 yards , draw and fire in 1.5 sec. or less. Second is a standard sheet of typing paper at 15 yards draw and fire 2 shots in 2 seconds. If you can't hit the targets in these test in the time alloted you would have trouble doing so with effect on the street in real life attacks. This is why being aware of suroundings is so critical.

[S.S.]

I tend to think that what we are talking about here is not shooting wildly.
I don't think I would attempt a 5 yard shot in a crowded McDonalds ubless it were absolutely clear in my mind that it was necessary to protect me or others from death or injury.
I agree whole heartily that shot placement is a good thing---but---well, but.
Blessings

Shot placement is the only thing, especially with smaller caliber firearms.
I never have been one to go in for the spray and pray idea of defending myself
or my family. I just picture from reading some of these posts, the Gangsta' on TV with his gun
turned sideways shooting up a street corner in a drive-by.

[jcn59]

Using the biggest gun you can get is okay for a canoe trip but not for self defense in town, unless you want to "accidentally" kill your neighbor or someone down the street.  A shotgun loaded with #4B would be a better house gun in a residential area than a big handgun.   I stay away from metro areas.  I don't think anyone has tried to shoot me in a long time.  Ever?

I generally carry a substantial load when walking my dog in N. WI woods unless I'm grouse hunting, then the KelTek 9mm comes along for company, with the shotgun.  The KT is WAY more accurate than you would suspect.   I wouldn't consider a big coyote at 40-50 yards to be out of range.  I'm not saying I could hit it first time every time, but I would get more than if I just said it's out of range.

[Mohawk]

Few instances of SD happen in yards. It is feet. Accuracy is important for certain scenarios but not my main concern. I think a SD gun with no sights at all would be a good seller.

[Empty Quiver]

I tend to agree with the OP. How exactly do you explain a 25yd defensive shoot?

I will also admit that I figure my chances of dieing in a shark attack are higher than being involved in a gun fight. I don't swim in the ocean, for the same reason I carry, no reason to tempt fate.

I am always tempted to overdo everything though. I have settled on a P239 in .40S&W. I have located mag extenders for it and now have 9 rounds of Gold Dot goodness available if needed. I carry on the large side of minimalist I suppose.

I can't help myself, bigger is better, more is almost enough. I really want to talk myself into a Walther PPS but 6 .40S&W sure don't seem like much of a loadout.  I know... I'm goofy in the head if I think 6 .40's at 72" is insufficient, but there it is.

[jcn59]

I remember when airplane hijacking came into vogue in the seventies, the liberal mantra was to do as your captives say, so they don't hurt you.   This prompted a rash of copycat crimes.  The hijacking didn't stop until we started killing the perps.  This is not rocket science.

I think it was  John Connor who recently wrote in the "Handgunner" magazine something like he wishes congress would replace the "duty to retreat" law (Wisconsin & other states?) with a "duty to engage" your perpetrator.

As I understand it, duty to retreat means that if someone broke into your house and proceeded to steal everything he could, you can't  deadly force to stop him, or you could call 911 & hope for the best.  You can only use deadly force if you have retreated as far as the prosecutor said was possible, AND you would have to convince a jury that your life was in danger.

That is just crazy.  What ever congressman thought up that excercise in stupidity should have his mother slap the crap out of him.

Mohawk, is that a model 10 laying on top of the deer.  If so, what was the load?  Thanks!