Author Topic: 357Mag? (Read 1286 times)

Yabbie · « **on:** January 11, 2011, 10:23:54 PM »

G'day Guys, I'd better introduce myself first I guess. I'm an Aussie from a rural part of Victoria where I mostly hunt deer (sambar) usually with hounds. Am keen on huntin anything tho so stalk and wing shoot aswell.

Been lookin here for a little while after I picked up a H&R handi in a store and hatched a plan

Now for the good bit...

What sort of pressures can a handi in 357 handle?
Are they the same as say a .30-06 action?
They are few and far between over here and the on-ground info is scarce. My little idea I've hatched is to get a 357Mag handi and run a .35Territorian (necked up .303Brit) reamer down it to make a nice light ute (pick-up) rifle that packs a punch

So do you think it will work? what sort of issues do you think I could run into?

Cheers Fellas,

Yabb....

bilmac · « **Reply #1 on:** January 11, 2011, 11:52:55 PM »

I guess old Brit Empire folks neck their 303s up and down like Americans do the 30-06. You will have the real experts signing on soon that can quote chapter and verse about pressure and such. My thought is that the rifling twist might not be ideal for that much velocity. A common rechamber here is to 357 maximum, which gives a nice boost in velocity with very little effort, most guys do the work themselves. But you would need ready access to American tools and brass.

jon f · « **Reply #2 on:** January 12, 2011, 12:18:13 AM »

I agree with bilmac, ream it out to .357 max. Cases are available from Adventure camping in Wangaratta.
If you get sick of it, sell it to me.
Jon

Darreld Walton · « **Reply #3 on:** January 12, 2011, 12:42:25 AM »

Yabbie,
Welcome!
The .30-06, .270 Winchester, .25-06 Remington, .243 Win., are all chambered in these rifles, so to your question, yes, they'll handle pressures similar to what these rounds produce.
I'd say that yes, the round you have in mind would work out. I question, though, whether the bore and twist would be ideal for what you have in mind.
I'm a bit interested in your idea, as I have a War II era (1944) "Smellie" with a rotten bore that I'm not sure what to do with. A rebore is an intriguing idea to put some life back in this rifle.
It's been so long since I've been asked, or asked myself, the question about international shipping of firearms, the reason I'm scratching my head, is because H&R has a "Accessory Barrel Program", where you send your receiver and forearm to the factory, and they fit a number of barrels, including smoothbore and rifled shotgun slug barrels to your frame for a VERY reasonable cost.
http://www.hr1871.com/Support/accessoryProgram.asp
Take 'er easy, and good luck to you!

Yabbie · « **Reply #4 on:** January 12, 2011, 12:57:55 AM »

Quote from: Darreld Walton on January 12, 2011, 12:42:25 AM

Yabbie,
Welcome!
The .30-06, .270 Winchester, .25-06 Remington, .243 Win., are all chambered in these rifles, so to your question, yes, they'll handle pressures similar to what these rounds produce.
I'd say that yes, the round you have in mind would work out. I question, though, whether the bore and twist would be ideal for what you have in mind.
I'm a bit interested in your idea, as I have a War II era (1944) "Smellie" with a rotten bore that I'm not sure what to do with. A rebore is an intriguing idea to put some life back in this rifle.

Thanks for the replies. Some one over here said that there were different strength actions, the rifle ones all look the same to me

I'd nearly get away with the .375maximum cept it's borderline in case length to be a legal samber cal in this state, has to be a minimum length of 2inch. Spose I could just go 444m but that'd be boring!

Darreld, they were one rifle that us Aussies had heaps of after the wars (we used 'em for a loooong time!) so conversions and wild cats were common place for an old SMLE. 22 cal up to 35 were quite common but 25 and 270 were the most common, throw a few 410 shotties in there too. we still see a few 25 & 270's for sale from time to time.

petemi · « **Reply #5 on:** January 12, 2011, 01:31:29 AM »

Yabbie,
g'day and welcome.

I believe .357s have been built on both SB1 and SB2 frames. The SB1 won't handle what you want to do. If you remove the stock from your rifle the SB1 will be solid cast iron while the SB2 is skeletonized alloy. If it came new in the box, the model number on the box will tell you. Another Handi caliber you can play with is the .38-55. You can cut down .303 brass and I believe you have to head trim them a bit. I have some cut down .30-40 brass for mine as well as factory Winchester.

I have a short 16.5 inch .357 Maximum on a SB2 frame. Since the reamer is not a gun part, I believe you could rent it.

Good luck,

Pete

gcrank1 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 12, 2011, 03:42:04 AM »

Check out the FAQs section in the header of this forum; you will answer a lot of questions you havent yet asked.
Assume you have the SB-1 (low pressure) action until you know for sure from the FAQs.
To maybe meet your length limit consider the .35Rem. re-chamber?; but if an SB-1 keep the loads mild.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #7 on:** January 12, 2011, 06:01:43 AM »

Welcome Yabbie! As a couple fellas mentioned, the 357Mag has been offered on both low pressure ductile cast iron frames and high pressure alloy steel SB2 frames, so be sure of what you have before attempting any high pressure rechambers, the 357 Remington Maximum is very popular and works fine on the cast iron frames. The accessory barrel program is only available in the US, H&R export any parts out of the US, they do have service points in Canada tho, and likely elsewhere.

Tim

Yabbie · « **Reply #8 on:** January 12, 2011, 09:04:24 AM »

Thanks for your help guys.
I may have to speak to the importer about what frame the particular 357 they bring is then, if they still do, as our wholesalers over here seem a bit odd in what they supply sometimes.
Thanks again, sheesh there's a lot of stuff to browse at GBO!
Cheers

quickdtoo · « **Reply #9 on:** January 12, 2011, 09:42:41 AM »

The best way to find out what frame you have is to remove the stock and see what the tang looks like, here's a direct link to the FAQs info. A person could call H&R and ask what barrels can be fitted, but being down under, that may not be practical, and I don't know what serial number prefixes H&R has used on their international firearms, if it has a two letter prefix starting with N or H, it's a modern frame, if it's just single letter or two letters starting with something other than N or H, it was made by H&R Inc that went out of business in 1986 and has a cast iron frame which isn't suitable for any high pressure barrels like the 30-06, H&R won't fit high pressure accessory barrels to any SB2 rifle frame made before 2000 as a matter of fact.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,80979.msg498556.html#msg498556

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,26264.msg503417.html#msg503417

Yabbie · « **Reply #10 on:** January 12, 2011, 10:07:35 AM »

Thanks Tim, I haven't got one just yet, doin the reasearch so as I don't end up with one I don't want. I'll be purchasing new from the local gun shop so it'll be as current as I can get. Lookin at getting a sythetic jobbie in blued finish if I can so it can take a bit of a beating but not be white in low light and scrub. It would be the ideal ute gun for these parts I reckon.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 12, 2011, 10:16:39 AM »

FWIW, Ive read that the 'reflective' quality of the polish job, not the color, is what makes it visible. That is to say, a brushed or sandblasted stainless finish will reflect less light than a polished blued steel, even though it is dark colored. We humans 'see' differently than critters, I guess.
To my mind, I can easily understand it with a low luster blue, but have never tried the actual visibility test in the field.

jon f · « **Reply #12 on:** January 12, 2011, 01:05:03 PM »

Yabbie,
I ordered a .357 mag Handi from Adventure Camping and Fishing in Wangaratta in May of 2009. Apparently its coming, one day.... Good Luck !!
I was hanging out wanting to play with a Handi , so I picked up a second hand .223 with a NU prefix, which makes it 2004 production. I paid a little over $400 for it.
Regards Jon

petemi · « **Reply #13 on:** January 12, 2011, 02:16:53 PM »

Man, I hate seeing how you Aussies are being screwed so badly when you buy a gun or parts. I don't think our currency exchange is that far apart, but it seems to me you're paying double.......and waiting. I volunteer to help any and all of you in any way I can .......without ending up in the crossbar hotel. This Tucson shooting thing is gonna light a fire, and I think in the long run, we Yanks are gonna lose some of our rights along the way. It might be a good time to donate to the NRA.

Pete

briannmilewis · « **Reply #14 on:** January 12, 2011, 06:27:03 PM »

Just for the record for all my fellow American GBO members...being from down under I did not even have to look at his opening words, to tell he was for OZ (one of our affectionate names for the place). His handle Yabbie screams Australian!!!!

Yabbie · « **Reply #15 on:** January 12, 2011, 07:39:37 PM »

Thanks Brian. I'm an aussie through and through thats for sure, settler family from the start. Had to move away from my home town tho, cause Melbourne just got too close for this country boy. Surrounded by forest again and loving it!
Cheers Fellas

briannmilewis · « **Reply #16 on:** January 13, 2011, 02:07:08 PM »

Yabbie: I grew up in Melbourne, Ashwood/Ashburton, spent all my school holidays on a dairy farm at Warrigul(sp).

Yabbie · « **Reply #17 on:** January 13, 2011, 09:14:51 PM »

Warragul (means wild dog/dingo by the way) and is a busy rural hub nowdays. I came from a little place called Harkaway, now vitually a suburb of melbourne. I miss the family farm sometimes but I love livin out on the edge of the forest and mountains here.
While I'm here..what sort of twist rates are the new synthetic stocked 357s?

Jacko · « **Reply #18 on:** January 14, 2011, 03:06:16 AM »

G/Day Yabbie, I'm way out of my depth here, don't own a Handi as I keep finding other project's, soon though got most of the saved cash now for a 45.70. I'm relying on my feeble knowledge of twist rates, what I've read in the Handi facts and elsewhere. I briefly considered the same project but chose to go with a Lithgow SMLE action and my TSI barrel is 1:12 twist just to keep it 100% Australian, the Handi sure would have been cheaper though

I am sure other similar calibres like .358 Winchester and .35 Whellen in other Rifles manage to punch 250 gr pills along just fine with a 1:15 twist rate assuming thats the twist on the current crop of Rifles. The 303.35 in a Handi Rifle should approach .358W ballistics no drama's in the Handi's action and there is plenty of stout 200 and 225 gr .35 cal projectiles on the Aussie market, the Woodleighs for one that will handle a beast the size of Sambar and should shoot real well.

If your end up with a 1:18 twist - question for the more knowledgeable folks but wouldn't a round or blunt nosed short for calibre .357 projectile with a large bearing surface in the 250 - 280 gr range still stabilize if it was driven hard as compared to the same weight but longer pointed bullet. My limited knowledge of Sambar habits, particularly when hunted over hounds is that Ranges are short, scrub is thick and shooting is fast and under 100 yards so a stout heavy proj will be an advantage.

I know bore diameter plays a role but my Marlin .44 mag pushed a 240 gr pill along at 1700 fps with a 1:38 twist rate better than I can shoot, why wouldn't a 1:15 or 1:18 push a similar weight pill accurately along at 2200 fps

A .35 Remington will work with the .357 Handi's twist rates if I understand what I'm reading alright, bugger it's case length is too short for Victorian regulations with Sambar. Another issue may the difference in Rim dia between the .303 Brit case and the .357 mag case and extractor modifications.

regards Jacko

45-70.gov · « **Reply #19 on:** January 14, 2011, 03:47:43 AM »

just get a 45-70 gov......and be done with it

our government...but it will work there too

all other calibers are just accessories

petemi · « **Reply #20 on:** January 14, 2011, 04:36:34 AM »

Quote from: 45-70.gov on January 14, 2011, 03:47:43 AM

just get a 45-70 gov......and be done with it

our government...but it will work there too

all other calibers are just accessories

I've got to agree with that one

Jacko, what are the restrictions. I gotta believe the sambar is a good sized deer.

Yabbie, As a young sailor, I hunted whitetail deer in Florida on a club hunt with hounds. I didn't care for it much. They posted hunters around a mile square piece on the fire control trails and turned the dogs loose. Pretty soon a Florida Conservation officer came by and said "They're comeiing out on the other side, hop in the truck and we I'll take you over there. I stood there shucking cartridges out of my lever gun, and the guy says "Reload and get in here." I didn't know, at the time, that I could carry a loaded rifle in a vehicle in Florida. We got over on the other side, and the radio came on saying they're running a fawn. Don't try to catch the dogs, grab the deer and the dogs will stop. Well, I ran track in school and was pretty quick. The little guy came out all spraddle legged and tongue hanging out with the dogs in the same condition behind him. I ran and tackled the deer and was almost immediately burried by hounds, The other guys rushed up and caught the hounds and I let the little deer go. A buddy of mine did shoot a nice buck later in the day. That was my first and only experience hunting deer with hounds. I prefer to still hunt, stalk or bait. I don't imagine you could tackle a Sambar

I do have beagles and love to run Snowshoe Hare with them, so I'm not against hound hunting. Every once in a while, one of my dogs will run a deer, and it's a pain in the butt. A hare circles, but a deer runs cross country and is hard to follow. It is difficult to get the dog back, and most times ya just gotta wait til he comes home.

Pete

gcrank1 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 14, 2011, 06:17:51 AM »

My Greenhill charts indicate for a 1:18 twist/ .357 cal.:
Max Length: 1.06"
Max Weight: 250gr.
If your are going to ere, do so to a tad lighter weight, shorter or faster twist.

Yabbie · « **Reply #22 on:** January 14, 2011, 11:05:22 AM »

Thanks again for your replies guys, Im slowly puttin a picture of what I need together. Limited supply over here is gonna be a pain in the butt me thinks. The case has to be over two inches in length so it's legal for Sambar but it won't be a primary sambar rifle (I have a 7600 carbine in 35Whelen for that) just something to stick in the truck.

Pete, sambar are a big deer, elk sized in a shorter, stocky frame. The areas we hunt with the hounds are mountain type country with thick forest and can be 20sq miles at a time with no roads into it. We can only hunt with 5 hounds at a time and a maximum of 10 hunters. Good beagels will hunt 30miles if the deer isn't shot early and it gets into the nasty country. We don't really have to worry about the hounds startin fawns cause they have no real scent to trail and most of us walk the hounds on the marks of the deer for a while before lettin 'em off. We shoot whatever deer the hounds are on, Sambar stags have a habit of runnin through their girls to loose the hounds...works too. Makes for a fairly even spread of harvest and good overall heard management. Part of the hunt is for the hounds(I love workin with the hounds and hearin their music in the mountains), part for trophy (we all like to shoot big stags) but mostly for me meat gathering (I dont buy beef from shops anymore). We aren't allowed to bait for deer over here.

Cheers!

petemi · « **Reply #23 on:** January 14, 2011, 11:34:35 AM »

Yabbie, I too love the hound music. One time three of my beagles jumped a Snowshoe Hare in a creek bottom on the south side of the property. I said, "Self, the bunnie'll be back, sit and relax." I sat in the sun on the north slope of the creek bottom and listened to and enjoyed the beagle song. About 45 minutes later, I woke up with 3 beagles jumping on me and licking my face. I had an orphaned, malnutricioned little female beagle for about 12 years. She was all crippled up but loved to hunt. Cally was her name. One day, there's Cally on a snowshoe. The snowshoe was sitting on a stump and Cally was howling and running around in circles around the stump looking for him. It was so funny I let the bunny live. Gotta run, chores to do.

Pete