Sod Wads? Hay Wads? Clay Wads? Wooden Wedges?

[seacoastartillery]

     In the Subject line of this thread there are three historical ways to hold a cannonball against the powder when firing at a target which lies below the bore axis when the tube is level.  This is called firing at an angle of depression.  What we are wondering is this:  How do you or would you fellows hold your solid shot against the powder when your tube is depressed?

     Also, there was an old text that I read years ago, source unknown, that contained language which amounted to instructions for the placement of the wooden wedges when firing at angles of depression "the wedges shall be upon the ball's center-line, half way up the bore or higher", or words to that effect.  Does anyone have a clue why the gunner would be instructed to do this?  Wouldn't these wedges drive the pressure to unsafe levels??

Think about it.  Let us know your thoughts or perhaps share your experience,

Tracy

    

[dominick]

The method used by the Revolutionary War soldier for his smoothbore musket was prepared paper cartriges;  They would open the paper and pour in the powder, then the ball, last was the paper that the ball and powder's wrapped in, then the rammer.  This is the method I use for small bore cannons.  The paper wad in front holds the ball and charge in place when the barrel is depressed.  Also, Do I read it as [wedges in the bore in front of the ball?]

[GGaskill]

If the wedges were very small, I think they would compress quickly enough to minimize their pressure increasing effect.  In any case, they must have required a special tool to place.

[jeeper1]

Without mentioning names I know someone who had to suddenly use bread in his swivel gun a few summers ago.

[lance]

Without mentioning names I know someone who had to suddenly use bread in his swivel gun a few summers ago.

Jeeper1, Are you talking about a certain Pirate? do you ever hear from him? tell him lance said hi.

[Artilleryman]

I have never heard of wedges being used for anything but disabling a gun.   To temporarily disable a gun one method was to ram a projectile without powder and use wooden wedges to hold it in place so that the gun could not be fired.  The wooden wedges could be removed by burning them out. 

Use a sabot to keep the projectile from rolling away from the powder, or move the gun to a more advantageous position.

[Max Caliber]

The Ordnance Manual of 1863 gives instruction on how to make ring-wads or grommets to hold a ball in place in a depressed barrel. Wedges should not  have been a problem if their thickness was at on less than the windage. The idea was not to wedge the ball tightly in the bore but only to scotch or chock the ball from rolling.

A thin disc of Styrafoam, a bit larger than bore diameter, works well but makes an irritating noise being shoved down the bore.

[Double D]

I do recall reading about using wedges to keep shot rolling out of a depressed barrel on naval vessels.  I do remember a discussion on this some where on the board.  I think we got into it when discussing drawing shot and the issue wedging shot in depressed barrels came up.  Again it was ina Naval sense.

The problem may be definition.  We say wedges today and get the picture Triangular device. But what was meant in the era?  When looking for wedges references I came across several period references to devices that lock into a teeth in a ratchet as wedges.  I would be, in a modern sense more likely to refer to those devices as pawls.  


I checked A TEXT-BOOK NAVAL ORDNANCE. AND GUNNERY 1880 and did not see reference to wedges to hold shot in depressed barrels. I did find find the above mention ratchet wedges.   I also found this:

WADS. No wad is required over a shell, but a
grommet-wad may be used in heavy rolling, or to prevent
the projectile moving forward should the bore be depressed r
also if it is shaken by the running out of the gun.

When loading with shot, a grommet-wad is placed over it.

No wad is placed between the charge and the projectile in
ordinary service, and it is positively prohibited to place a
wad over an elongated projectile.

1330. A grommet-wad consists of a selvagee, or circle of
rope equal in diameter to the bore of the gun. The
wads are made by a wad-machine, which consists of pairs of
disks adapted to each calibre of guns, which, being placed
face to face on a spindle and keyed, present an annular score
grooved in such a way as to make, when fitted, a grommet of
the required size. Transverse notches are cut in the circumference
of the disks to the bottom of the score, for the convenience
of marling the wad before taking it off the mold.

In making the wad, the end of a rope-yarn is left in the
score, and the mold is turned by a crank until the score is
filled.

The grommet thus formed is marled like a selvagee-strap,
and a section of about an inch is taken out of it, in order to
make the wad, when swelled by the dampness, enter the bore
of the gun readily. Grommet-wads should be made neither
too hard nor too soft ; and to avoid either of these two
extremes, a sufficient number of hitches only is taken to
give the wad the consistency required for service. Sections
of one-third or one-fourth of these wads will answer as well
in case of need.

I believe the reference mentioned earlier about wedging shot in depressed navel gun came from a Pre civil war document.

[seacoastartillery]

     Not just on board ships, but on land as well, frequently artillery crews had to contend with a solid shot's tendency to roll, like here at little Fort Phoenix built in 1775, near the entrance to the Fairhaven-New Bedford harbor in Massachusetts.  Two of these five, 24 Pdr. Model 1819 Siege Guns, needed some method of preventing that potentially disastrous problem from occurring.  The other three were un-banded, conversion rifles, so didn't need any help.  You can just imagine how common this problem was at all the various seacoast forts scattered around the U.S. and around the world too, especially for cannon on the second or third tier.





     The membership comes through once again with some terrific ideas designed to stop footloose solid shot.  The only one that Mike and I are perplexed about is the question put forth by our own, Dominic Carpenter.  The question he asks at the end of his post deserves a creative solution.  We will know if Dom still has a sense of humor shortly after he reads this post.  

  Also, Do I read it as [wedges in the bore in front of the ball?]  

     I had to call Mike in California to discuss his question.  We came up with a solution, but it certainly would be expensive!  The way we read his question is this:  Dom must be thinking of possibly driving, really small wedges into the windage space from 'behind the solid shot'if he is questioning the placement of wedges in front of the ball.  We finally decided that it could be done by calling up Gulliver in his travels; hopefully he is still in Lilliput, and can enlist the aid of the tiny populace there to help us out.  Basically this is the drill they would have to accomplish:  Two or three of the Lilliputians would be placed at the muzzle of the level and loaded cannon by a helpful artilleryman.  They would then hike down the bore until they arrived at the ball. The one with the ladder would place it against the shot just above the equator.  Then the tiny fellow with the sack of little wooden wedges and bronze chisel and copper hammer would ascend the ladder and jump off onto the ball when he reached the top of the bore.  He would then crawl through the largest windage crevice at the shot's very top and chisel through 6 layers of aluminum foil with his non-sparking bronze chisel.  He would then mine out just enough powder to make space for the two tiny wedges which he would then drive between the bore and the shot surfaces.  He would then crawl between these two wedges, slide down to the steadied ladder, descend it and the three would then hike back to the muzzle, stopping to rest along their route.  After reaching the muzzle, they would bang their little hammer on the muzzle face, "tink, tink, tink" to get the artilleryman's attention and he would lift all three once more in his hand and transfer them to safety.  The hazard pay charges by the Lilliputians would be terrific for this work, which is the main reason it's not done this way.  

Tracy and Mike



    

[Double D]

I didn't read  Dom's question that way.  I read it just as he wrote, Do you mean wedges driven in from the front? 

I did find some reference to the subject in A treatise on ordnance and naval gunnery  By Edward Simpson that refers to uses of hay and clay. 

[dominick]

         The membership comes through once again with some terrific ideas designed to stop footloose solid shot.  The only one that Mike and I are perplexed about is the question put forth by our own, Dominic Carpenter.  The question he asks at the end of his post deserves a creative solution.  We will know if Dom still has a sense of humor shortly after he reads this post.  

  Also, Do I read it as [wedges in the bore in front of the ball?]  

     I had to call Mike in California to discuss his question.  We came up with a solution, but it certainly would be expensive!  The way we read his question is this:  Dom must be thinking of possibly driving, really small wedges into the windage space from 'behind the solid shot'if he is questioning the placement of wedges in front of the ball.  We finally decided that it could be done by calling up Gulliver in his travels; hopefully he is still in Lilliput, and can enlist the aid of the tiny populace there to help us out.  Basically this is the drill they would have to accomplish:  Two or three of the Lilliputians would be placed at the muzzle of the level and loaded cannon by a helpful artilleryman.  They would then hike down the bore until they arrived at the ball. The one with the ladder would place it against the shot just above the equator.  Then the tiny fellow with the sack of little wooden wedges and bronze chisel and copper hammer would ascend the ladder and jump off onto the ball when he reached the top of the bore.  He would then crawl through the largest windage crevice at the shot's very top and chisel through 6 layers of aluminum foil with his non-sparking bronze chisel.  He would then mine out just enough powder to make space for the two tiny wedges which he would then drive between the bore and the shot surfaces.  He would then crawl between these two wedges, slide down to the steadied ladder, descend it and the three would then hike back to the muzzle, stopping to rest along their route.  After reaching the muzzle, they would bang their little hammer on the muzzle face, "tink, tink, tink" to get the artilleryman's attention and he would lift all three once more in his hand and transfer them to safety.  The hazard pay charges by the Lilliputians would be terrific for this work, which is the main reason it's not done this way.  

Tracy and Mike

Are you Ok, good buddy?  

I didn't read  Dom's question that way.  I read it just as he wrote, Do you mean wedges driven in from the front?  

I did find some reference to the subject in A treatise on ordnance and naval gunnery  By Edward Simpson that refers to uses of hay and clay.  

I also read that somewhere.   Early artillerist's also heated an iron cannonball until red hot and used damp clay and hay as the wadding between it and the powder.  Early incendiary projectiles.

[dan610324]

hay I never heard about , but something vey similar
the straw left when you harvested the corn wheat and such grains , dont know the english name for the remaining straw
thats whats used here in sweden in 17th and 18th century
it was also used between the powder and the ball

[Double D]

 
I also read that somewhere.   Early artillerist's also heated an iron cannonball until red hot and used damp clay and hay as the wadding between it and the powder.  Early incendiary projectiles.

Dom that is also referred to in A treatise on ordnance and naval gunnery  By Edward Simpson

[Rayfan87]

hay I never heard about , but something vey similar
the straw left when you harvested the corn wheat and such grains , dont know the english name for the remaining straw
thats whats used here in sweden in 17th and 18th century
it was also used between the powder and the ball

Chaff

[dan610324]

thanks

[seacoastartillery]

  

Are you Ok, good buddy?  

    I guess I'm O.K. and it seems you still have your sense of humor.  I was worried!  Hah.  Not really.

 
I also read that somewhere.   Early artillerist's also heated an iron cannonball until red hot and used damp clay and hay as the wadding between it and the powder.  Early incendiary projectiles.

Dom that is also referred to in A treatise on ordnance and naval gunnery  By Edward Simpson

     I've read more than a few times over the years that the ultimate test of a clay or damp hay wad was to let the red-hot shot cool down in the tube.  If, during this process the powder did not ignite, then the wad was a success.  Also there was a cautionary note for the gunner to fire soon after the loading had occurred when using damp hay wads, because the steam generated could ruin the powder if there was a long delay between loading and firing.

hay I never heard about , but something vey similar
the straw left when you harvested the corn wheat and such grains , dont know the english name for the remaining straw
thats whats used here in sweden in 17th and 18th century
it was also used between the powder and the ball

Chaff

    I don't know what you had on the ground after you had harvested your crop of broom-straw, ( probably broken bits of broom-straw), but we had plenty of it in the old days around here.  Heck the town where Seacoast Artillery is located is named "Broomfield".  As the story goes, this area was famous for it's high quality 'broom-straw' which was shipped to broom makers all over the United States.  The rabbit population was notable as well.  When I moved here in 1977, the broom-straw was gone, but the rabbits were everywhere!  They still are.  They breed like rabbits, you know!

    I got to thinking yesterday and wondered if maybe the reason that these small wedges were used in chocking cannon balls without apparent worry might have something to do with what happens in the bore after the powder ignites.  Most of us know that 'Blow-by Gasses' squeeze around the shot, shell or bolt every time a cannon is fired.  These high velocity gasses are visible after they emerge from the cannon as a distinctly separate puff of smoke in front of the smoke which emerges after the shot has left the bore.  Examples of this are in pics posted below.  Could it be that these blow-by gasses blow the little wooden wedges into tooth-pics and that is why the old gunners didn't worry about using them?

Any thoughts on that idea?

Tracy

Barbell shaped clouds indicate the presence of 'blow-by gasses' and 'propulsion-gasses' in each photo.
This one is from high-prairie rifling experiments in 2004.  Yes, muzzle-loaded rifle projectiles let some 'blow-by' gasses pass before obturation of the skirt occurs.




Early Parrott 100 Pdr. testing in 2006.  Barbell shaped cloud formed once again.




Even Cat Whisperer's 2-liter soda bottle mortar did it at the New River Valley shoot in 2007.




And Gary's smoothbore Parrott cannon produced a nice example when shooting a solid shot, (Fox Ball) at the Montana Scale Model Cannon Shoot in 2009.

[dominick]

  Wouldn't "hay, straw, chaff" have the same  meaning if mix with clay for a wadding. 

[Rickk]

How about taping a cardboard wad to the ball with masking tape and loading it cardboard down? Windage would prevent rolling, but cardboard should not get one into any sort of trouble if it gets in the windage area on it's way out.

[Cat Whisperer]

That sounds a lot safer to me.

[GGaskill]

Put the cardboard (corrugated paper) against the powder and it will act as a sabot.

[seacoastartillery]

     Dominic,   I believe those hay or straw or chaff wads were merely damp, just a little, to allow a mass of that material, unmixed with clay or any other binder, to clump together and act as a wad to hold the shot in place.  

     Rickk,    That sounds like a practical solution, much like a sabot, without the higher cost and complexity of manufacture.  I agree with CW, it would be a lot safer as the materials used would essentially be blown to atoms upon firing the piece.  It is interesting to note that paper-mache sabots associated with some Civil War projectiles, were the only type of sabot approved to be shot over friendly troops.  We infantrymen, had we lived during that era, would not have appreciated getting clobbered by a 5 pound chunk of wood with a flailing iron strap in the back of our heads!!

     But what about my assertion that the old artillerymen of that era just had no concern about these slivers of wood, (wedges), because they would be blown into toothpicks by the primo-emergent, (blow-by) gasses?  We think that, upon firing, the ball would instantly be ready to fly with nothing of substance blocking it's path.  Do you agree or not?

Tracy

[Double D]

If in the modern sense if you thought you needed something to hold the ball, how about making your own felt wads.  This link is from the Martini Henry link list Durofelt, felt for wads - http://www.durofelt.com/image_26.html. 

[dan610324]

DD
is that henry guy the man who mix the martinis or the one who drink them ??

oooooooohhh  sorry , it said link list  NOT  drink list
it might be time for new glasses now , or at least clean the old ones   

[Victor3]

 Them guys way back when sure did go to a lot of trouble to keep their balls in place. Didn't nobody tell 'em 'bout loominum foil?

[MR.GADGET]

I also read that somewhere.   Early artillerist's also heated an iron cannonball until red hot and used damp clay and hay as the wadding between it and the powder.  Early incendiary projectiles.

Talking about Hot shot. There were a lot of forts that used Hot shot on ships to start the ship on fire.
Fort Macon Still has the hot shot oven and lots of info on this use.

[Artilleryman]

It was said that hot shot if not used and allowed to cool would no longer fit in the bore. 

[dan610324]

that cant be correct
iron gets larger when heated
so if it still fit the bore when its hot it will of course fit the bore when its cold again

[seacoastartillery]

     Dan,   Artilleryman is correct.  I have read this several times over the years.  What he did not mention is the fact that scale formation is the likely cause of this phenomenon.  Rust could easily be removed, not so easy with scale!  We know from experience about that.  Remind us after August of this year.  We will put this to the test with one of our 4" cast iron cannonballs.

Tracy

[dan610324]

yes of course you will get a scale on it
but I cant believe that the scale would expand while the ball is cooling

[GGaskill]

I gotta go with Dan on this, old guys notwithstanding.  Something other than the shot must be causing it to stick in the bore.