Forming 9.3x62mm from 30-06? Is it safe?

[lgm270]

I've seen a lot of controversy about forming 9.3x62mm cases from 30-06, based on the argument tht 9.3 chamber specs and brass base diameter  are  .476"  http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd93x62.jpg compared with the smaller base diameter of the 30-06 which is .470"  http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd3006.jpg.


Specs for 9.3x62mm show the rim diameter at .470" and the base diameter at .476".  This means the 9.3x62 mm rim is smaller than the base of the case.  In the 30-06, by comparison,  the  official rim diamter is .473" but the base diameter is .470.  The 30-06 rim is  larger  than the base of the case.

I've seen reports of people who said no problem, just go ahead and do it, and others who reported ruptures and case head failures resulting in flames and smoking out of the breach of actions when firing 9.3x62 ammo made from '06 cases.

Any comments?

[JJ Kelly]

Hello,
I have a CZ 550 in 9.3x62mm and yes I use 30-06 brass. First anneal the case neck
and shoulder soft, expand with RCBS .30 to .40 die making case look straight. Now with
forming die set to zero head space in your gun by chambering brass. Once die is set
trim, full length re-size and load. Upon firing brass, above solid head expands, you will
full length re-size but it not going back to the 06 size. I have had S & B brass in 9.3x62
seperate, never any problems with 06 brass and I load hot. RCBS would not sell the
reloading kit if it didn't work.  Using the 06 brass you do save a lot of money.

[RaySendero]

Why not just buy the correct brass?

Grafs has both Hornady and Prvi in stock:

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/823

[lgm270]

Why not just buy the correct brass?

Grafs has both Hornady and Prvi in stock:

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/823

Maybe a better idea to get a .35 Whelen instead.

[RaySendero]

Maybe a better idea to get a .35 Whelen instead.

lgm270,
Your answering your own thread with a post like that?
Maybe you should stick to factory ammo!

[JJ Kelly]

Hi Guys,
Ray, I pick up 30-06, 270, 280, .35 w at the range for free, the Priv
brass is less expensive but look at what norma and lapua get for 100
cases. Also I have fun making my own, the same reasons for why you
reload in the first place.
Igm270, I really believe 9.3x62mm is a much better than .35 W, this topic
has been debated enough here. the point here is you can make safe
9.3x62mm ammo from 30-06 brass.

[RaySendero]

Hi Guys,
Ray, I pick up 30-06, 270, 280, .35 w at the range for free, the Priv
brass is less expensive but look at what norma and lapua get for 100
cases. Also I have fun making my own, the same reasons for why you
reload in the first place.

JJ,

I understand what your saying.  I, too, like making ammo and building rifles.  But on the issue of range brass and reforming cases - I've had some bad experiences over the years.  I'll try to explain my experiences but, if I lose you rambling just ask:

I no longer collect range brass or reform cases for my rifles - Still do some of this for pistols/revolvers but not my rifles.

1) 270 range brass was easy to gather.  Grouped it into lots of the same case brands.  Reloaded it and fired as groups it in my 270.  FL resized it and reloaded it keeping the cases grouped.  Found the some significant velocity differences between the brands but the std deviation and X spreads between the cases brand were mostly comparable – Just would load up all one brand at a time and required me to re-zero that rifle. When all these were shot/used I would do the same for the next case brand group.  One of the brands would give my rifle fits on accuracy.  First time I cycled through this brand I thought the rifle or scope had broken. Then this accuracy problem when away when I switched to the next brand but I did not figure out what had happened – Thought the scope mount or rings I checked and double checked some how fixed it.  Then sure enough accuracy problem returned when I had cycled back to the brand.  Still did not associate the problem with that brand of cases for several months.  When I finally figured it out and did some experiments it verified the cases were the problem but till this day I don’t understand the root cause.  I would not wish this type of trouble-shooting problem on anyone.

2) I reformed some 284 Win Brass to 7.5x55 just to get started shooting an old Swiss K31 I had just obtained some years ago.  Those reformed cases were just as accurate as starting with new 7.5 cases but required a different load recipe.  Again I could never explain why – They measured the same case powder capacity but velocity and pressure were different.

3) I’ve had several other bad experiences with some range brass I collected where a few must have been shot in a rifle with a bad headspace.

So based on IMO, I’ve just made it my SOP to obtain new cases with the proper head stamp for all my rifle reloading if at all possible.  Luckily none of the problems I ran into above have cost me to lose a deer or hog but it easily could have.  Also get better precision reloads and less time trouble-shooting aggravating problems.

[JJ Kelly]

Hi Ray,
With 9.3x62mm and my CZ550 my re-formed brass using Federal, Winchester and
Remington 30-06 all shot the same as Norma factory ammo and re-loads using
Norma or Lapua brass. Also my 270 gr loads at 100yds are same point of impact
as all 286 gr loads. The only problems I had was with Seiller and Bellot ammo and
brass. To get back to the question, "is it safe", depending on the rifle there could
be a problem because the rim and at bottom of case is.468 and after firing it expands
larger above the solid web. If your gun has a larger chamber, could the case split?
Yes, so you have to look for warning signs. On a side note, if I had to have a .358
gun, it would be a .350 rem mag.; lots of free cases laying around.

JJK

[RaySendero]

JJ,

My 9,3 progressed from a pawn shop POS Vz-24 in 2003 to this 8x57 in 2004:



to this 8x57 in 2006:



to this 9,3x62 in 2007:



I began reloading for it using runing through ladders of 6 different powders using the 285 PP.  Found it really liked IMR-4320 just switched it out the 285 PP with a 286 NPT and Wal-La.   

[kombi1976]

I guess you could by why not save yourself the trouble and buy Lapua factory brass?
That's what I use in my T3 Lite Stainless.

[JesterGrin]

To be sure you make some valid points. Even though what  you did learn took time and money to do so. All of this info I found in reloading books and other publications of which I have found the info holds true.

Anytime you change brass manufacturer things change. So to make things easier try and stick with one brand of brass.

Also even if you stick with one manufacturer for brass they may change lot to lot as they are made as said so in many publications on this.

To help with this problem if you stick with one manufacturer for brass then weigh your brass into lots and try and keep the weight from case to case as close as possible.

Also other than the case weight there is bullet weight. And yes bullet weight of a jacketed bullet can very from one to the next. So if you are really pushing for the limits of accuracy weigh them as well. Just as you would weigh each powder charge and trickle the powder in to make sure each load is the same. The more consistent you can make each round to match the other the better accuracy you will have.

This is just a small part that will help you have the most accurate ammo you can. But it all depends on how accurate you wish your rifle to be. Some have to have 1/2 in groups at 100 yards while others are happy with 1 1/2 to 2 in groups at 100 yards for a hunting rifle. But also remember that the gun and the shooter is only capable of obtaining certain accuracy limits. In other words please do not keep shooting said rifle and looking for the Holly Grail of accuracy and along the way shoot the barrel out trying to find that last 1/4 inch. Be happy with the best that you can do or if it does not make you happy change the rifle or sell it and start with a new one. But that is just my soap box opinion.


 

Hi Guys,
Ray, I pick up 30-06, 270, 280, .35 w at the range for free, the Priv
brass is less expensive but look at what norma and lapua get for 100
cases. Also I have fun making my own, the same reasons for why you
reload in the first place.

JJ,

I understand what your saying.  I, too, like making ammo and building rifles.  But on the issue of range brass and reforming cases - I've had some bad experiences over the years.  I'll try to explain my experiences but, if I lose you rambling just ask:

I no longer collect range brass or reform cases for my rifles - Still do some of this for pistols/revolvers but not my rifles.

1) 270 range brass was easy to gather.  Grouped it into lots of the same case brands.  Reloaded it and fired as groups it in my 270.  FL resized it and reloaded it keeping the cases grouped.  Found the some significant velocity differences between the brands but the std deviation and X spreads between the cases brand were mostly comparable – Just would load up all one brand at a time and required me to re-zero that rifle. When all these were shot/used I would do the same for the next case brand group.  One of the brands would give my rifle fits on accuracy.  First time I cycled through this brand I thought the rifle or scope had broken. Then this accuracy problem when away when I switched to the next brand but I did not figure out what had happened – Thought the scope mount or rings I checked and double checked some how fixed it.  Then sure enough accuracy problem returned when I had cycled back to the brand.  Still did not associate the problem with that brand of cases for several months.  When I finally figured it out and did some experiments it verified the cases were the problem but till this day I don’t understand the root cause.  I would not wish this type of trouble-shooting problem on anyone.

2) I reformed some 284 Win Brass to 7.5x55 just to get started shooting an old Swiss K31 I had just obtained some years ago.  Those reformed cases were just as accurate as starting with new 7.5 cases but required a different load recipe.  Again I could never explain why – They measured the same case powder capacity but velocity and pressure were different.

3) I’ve had several other bad experiences with some range brass I collected where a few must have been shot in a rifle with a bad headspace.

So based on IMO, I’ve just made it my SOP to obtain new cases with the proper head stamp for all my rifle reloading if at all possible.  Luckily none of the problems I ran into above have cost me to lose a deer or hog but it easily could have.  Also get better precision reloads and less time trouble-shooting aggravating problems.

[stainless]

The casehead on 9.3x62 do not only show a difference in size - the casehead on 9.3x62 is usually a little more massive/stronger.
I would use fireformed brass from .30-06 only in reduced loads.
Shoot Privi Partizan 9,3x62 to get affordable brass or buy Graf cases, which is Privi brass.

[LanceR]

Gentlemen, this has been an interesting read for a few reasons and I thank you.  As a newcomer here I've enjoyed the wide range of diverse opinions and experiences on the site.

If I were to buy a medium bore rifle the odds are it would be a 9.3x62mm CZ 550 full stocked rifle. 

To me the goal in hunting, reloading etc is "no drama".  As a retired infantryman I believe that surprises are best saved for birthdays and ambushes.

The caliber choice is because it is all I would ever expect to need and the rifle choice is because it would match my deer/black bear rifle so there would be a minimum of new muscle memory to learn to shoot it well.  Like I said; "no drama".

When considering range brass we have no idea whether the rifle that fired it had excessive headspace or not and as unlikely as it may seem the chance remains that the brass is fatally stretched and weakened at the junction of the base web and the side wall.  A normal pre-reloading inspection and full length sizing would likely not find that.

Neither do we know if they are reloads that may already have been used a few times (although some educated guesses can be made from a careful inspection) or subjected to over pressure loads.

In the world of managing risks there are two considerations that trump all others.

The first trump card is "gut feeling".  Many years of occupational health studies and surveys have shown that most folks injured on the job had a "gut feeling" that what they were doing was not quite right.  A person looking at all the different results experience by those who have gone before before them in forming 9.3x62mm brass from 30-06 cases could easily get that "gut feeling".

The second trump card is statistically valid experience.  No one person, or even a small group of us, will from ever reload enough to outweigh the mass of experience of the whole of the industry and the hobby.  Some among us can comfortably state "It was safe for me" but no one can honestly state "It will be safe for you".  The standards of the industry and hobby at large lead to firm "No! It is NOT safe!" even though a lot of folks have done it and, reportedly, still have both eyes and all their fingers.

That said, I'd guess that whole thing boils down to whether the cost of a hundred Graf and Sons cases is outweighed by the time, effort and potential safety issue of one particular reloader forming "new" brass from one particular batch of "old" brass.

For me, I'd buy the brass.

Again, thanks.

Lance

[parkergunshop]

Lance,

I have reloaded dozens of calibers and have over 50 sets of reloading dies on the wall behind my reloading equipment.

I never even considered using salvage brass from a shooting range, your wisdom must have been shared some where some how.
,
If you can't afford to use new or known source brass in reloading you don't need to be doing it   Even if you know the source you can't tell what kind of loads the user fired in the cases.

I saw a guy show up at a rifle range and the first three shots, he fired the primers fell out of the cases when they were extracted.

Reason, he cleaned his cases with a chemical cleaner and then dried them in his kitchen oven.  Amazing how much brass you can ruin in a 400 degree kitchen oven.

You never know what another user has done to brass.

[kombi1976]

Unless you know the guy giving you the brass and know he's a safe loader and shooter getting brass from other people is dangerous. And for a cal like this where good brass is available for an affordable amount it's unnecessary to be forming brass.

[JJ Kelly]

Hi Guys,

After reading the latest on this topic, I wanted to say a couple of things.
Yes it is easier just to buy brass in 9.3x62mm. I don't reload for other people
and I am sure what I am doing is safe. Well taken that when you find brass
you are not sure what has been done to it; that's why you should know
what your doing. When inspecting brass, using a paper clip bent and sharpened
on the end, you can feel the inside of the case to see if there is any signs of
separation. Headspace, because you soften neck and shoulder, expand to .40
and carefully put the shoulder in the right place, the brass fits your gun. You can't
say that about factory .35 whelen ammo. These are just a few reasons I am
confident in my reloads and reloading allows me to shoot more.

[crash87]

When Bob Fulton 1st designed the "HAWK" line of wildcat cartridges, It was bases on the 9.3X62 case. 30/06 brass was easier, obviously, to get and was used to fireform the wildcat.  Then Dave Scovill decided to ride on the back of Bob's work and changed the case to 30/06, and was then able to put his name on the cartridge too.    (pretty much the same as he did with Elmer's bullet)   So, yes, I would have to say it is safe. There are wildcats out there that are drastically different than their parent case and, are used to form the wildcat. The 9.3 and 30/06 are minute differences in areas where it doesn't really matter anyway.