Info on pre 1898 artillery designs

[partsproduction]

 My pastor gave me a barrel from a GAU8, the Warthog Gatling, 30MM, gain twist, approximately 8ft lth. I plan to make him a muzzle loader of half of it so he will feel free of government intervention. The other half I hope to make into a breech loader utilizing the Krupp sliding breech. The main interest is in shooting, not in making a replica, but have heard that the BTAF will not trouble one who makes a replica type from before 1898 as long as it doesn't use fixed ammunition.
 Question 1, How close to a pure replica does it have to be?

 Question 2, What are the elements involved in avoiding BTAF interference? Do I have it essentially correct?

 Question 3, There are many sources of info about post 1898 designs, but little between the war of Southern aggression (The South started that nasty war) and the first world war, can anyone point me to a source, book, DVD, or anything, for info of artillery designs from 1865-1898?
Thanks,
partsproduction

[Double D]

If you review the rules for posting on this board, you will find one of them is we will not give interpretations of ATF rules and regulations.  You must write them and ask them to interpret their rules.

Also if you review the rules for this board and build a cannon to the criteria in our rules you should be on pretty safe grounds wit ATF, but the final decision is of course theirs.

I will also say if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and looks like a duck it probably is a replica.  Replica is not the the same as duplicate

If you feel your design might bring yourself to ATF's attention, then you should draw up plans and send them to ATF for approval before you start the build.  If ATF allows the build as an antique replica , post the letter here and tell us about the build.

As far as research of artillery , it is right at you finder tips.  I just googled rifled  breech loaders  and got 95,000 hits.  Start reading.  The very first hit is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifled_breech_loader.  Look through that document and you will find mention of the  Krupp horizontal sliding block.  Google Krupp horizontal sliding block and you will get another 2400 hits. You should be able spend hours leaning with all this information.

And of course the fellows here will provide you with additional ideas.  

[Cat Whisperer]

Partsproduction -

WELCOME to the board!  Now that we know what you like, we await pictures of the manufacture and use of it!

DD told you right.  Do what he advised.   

[partsproduction]

 Thanks for the kind replies. I was really asking for info on books that would show the models from that specific era, 1865-1898, as that would probably render more information that can be "resized" larger, and I wouldn't be opposed to cutting a page out and using it to make my design.

 As to the BATF, is that how most 0of you who have made breech loaders have approached the problem? I've certainly considered that a letter from the BATF could fend off many attacks later. The end product will be very valuable, and I certainly don't want it to end up confiscated or (Gulp!) destroyed.

[Double D]

I don't think we have very many breech loaders here. A couple of  Whitworths maybe.  Whitworth is well documented pre 1898 and a bag gun and doesn't use fixed ammunition.

If the breech loader you are building under is under 50 caliber it's just any other breech loader firearm for us and you can post it here.  I'm not sure how BATF wou

If your caliber is over .50 then to be posted her it can't use fixed ammo that available commercially unless you get a letter from ATF saying you are allowed to build the gun.

In either case the gun has to be a replica of a gun made before 1898 for this board.

[Double D]

Here's one AN INTRODUCTION TO BRITISH ARTILLERY IN NORTH AMERICA Historical Arms Series No. 4  James Gooding.

[GGaskill]

While one might say that the modern era in small arms (rifles, at least) began with the M1898 Mauser, the modern era in field artillery began with the French 75mm Model of 1897.  So a replica of the French 75 would seem within the purview of the forum since shells for them are not readily available in ordinary commerce. And the US breech loading mortar Models of 1890 would fit, too.  And the disappearing rifles of the Endicott period coastal batteries.

Also, check out this thread.

Lots of stuff happened before 1898.

[KABAR2]

The twist breech used on the French 75MM dates back to the 1850's  you can
run afoul of the ATF is adding recoil systems and pneumatic tires,  both of these are considered
modern features,  why not keep it simple like the Whitworth?

[Artilleryman]

The Ellsworth and the Hughes gun are both breechloaders from the Civil War period.

[Double D]

He is looking for breech loaders after the Civil war and before 1898.

[Max Caliber]

I think it would be a worthwhile project to put together a list, with pictures and drawings, of breech loaders that might be likely candidates for replication, from the Civil War to 1898. Looks like a job for the Board's fine research department, Boom J.

[Double D]

  Looks like a job for the Board's fine research department, Boom J.

He does do good work, doesn't he...

[Cat Whisperer]

  Looks like a job for the Board's fine research department, Boom J.

He does do good work, doesn't he...

I second the motion. 

[GGaskill]

A good place to start is with

Modern Guns and Mortars Adopted in the United States Land Service, Their Carriages, Projectiles, Fuzes and Sights

 

[Victor3]

My pastor gave me a barrel from a GAU8, the Warthog Gatling, 30MM, gain twist, approximately 8ft lth. I plan to make him a muzzle loader of half of it so he will feel free of government intervention.

 A member here made a Parrott rifle from one of those barrels. I made him this mould. IIRC the projectile was 2260 grains...

[Cannoneer]

I think it would be a worthwhile project to put together a list, with pictures and drawings, of breech loaders that might be likely candidates for replication, from the Civil War to 1898. Looks like a job for the Board's fine research department, Boom J.

I thought about what books, articles, and sites I might have saved/bookmarked when I first saw this topic, but I haven't had the oportunity to check yet (I will). I don't think I've got a whole lot of stuff on breech loaders of the period that covers the 1860's till near the turn of the century; if I do most of it will probably be concerned with Whitworth and Armstrong rifles. Not that long ago I tried to find some information on the U.S. Navy 3-inch BLR, and couldn't turn up much of anything.     

[partsproduction]

 Thanks for the ideas. My pastor has indicated a desire for a breechloader as well, as was his original intent when he bought the barrel, so I can duplicate my efforts in all areas. I was thinking of a fortress mount but he says he would rather have wood wheels, which are available in ebay. So, two light pack animal style mountain guns with Krupp breech.

 The Whitworth has a problem built into itself for me, the hexagonal bore, to me if it's a replica of a Whitworth it should have a hex bore.

 That book AN INTRODUCTION TO BRITISH ARTILLERY IN NORTH AMERICA, Amazon minimum $230!! Obviously I want my ducks walking happily in a row before talking to the BATF, but $230 is a big investment. I guess that's par for the course when looking for weird info.

 If the BATF would approve a Whitworth with standard rifling I suppose I could get past my own problems with historical accuracy.

 The mold for the GAU8 barrel, interesting, did they stabilize? If the cylindrical form is basically a Mine' form for a muzzle loader did the walls expand and take the riflings? Great looking mold! As a breechloader I plan on running out a couple hundred 12L14 projectiles with driving band grooves, the original projectile used nylon driving bands, that might work again too, make the rings, heat them in oil, slip them over and to the grooves and press them in. The sides of the grooves could have some kind of retention geometry machined in, recover as many fired projectiles as possible and put new rings in place. Sounds like a few years of fun shooting right there.

[Double D]

Thanks for the ideas. My pastor has indicated a desire for a breechloader as well, as was his original intent when he bought the barrel, so I can duplicate my efforts in all areas. I was thinking of a fortress mount but he says he would rather have wood wheels, which are available in ebay. So, two light pack animal style mountain guns with Krupp breech.

Before you get to wrapped up in Ebay pay a visit to our    
Blackpowder Cannons links list  and look at the wheels vendors listed the there. You are more likely to finda fiunctional wheeel from them instead of ending up a witha make do or decorative wheel.

  

 

That book AN INTRODUCTION TO BRITISH ARTILLERY IN NORTH AMERICA, Amazon minimum $230!! Obviously I want my ducks walking happily in a row before talking to the BATF, but $230 is a big investment. I guess that's par for the course when looking for weird info.

If ever you need a book go to  www.ABEbooks.com.   There are 33 different copies of that book for sale ranging in price from $5 to $28. www.abebooks is a world wide search engine for antique and used book sellers. I never buyanything from  Amazon.

If the BATF would approve a Whitworth with standard rifling I suppose I could get past my own problems with historical accuracy.

You would not really need BATF approval to build a Whitworth, but if you use the 30 mm barrel  it wouldn't  not hurt to ask first.  You can get plans for the  Whitworth from AOP.

  

As a breechloader I plan on running out a couple hundred 12L14 projectiles with driving band grooves, the original projectile used nylon driving bands, that might work again too, make the rings, heat them in oil, slip them over and to the grooves and press them in. The sides of the grooves could have some kind of retention geometry machined in, recover as many fired projectiles as possible and put new rings in place. Sounds like a few years of fun shooting right there.

Mike and Tracy are the steel projectile Experts.  They are a bit busy right now building my  Krupp.

[Victor3]

  The mold for the GAU8 barrel, interesting, did they stabilize? If the cylindrical form is basically a Mine' form for a muzzle loader did the walls expand and take the riflings? Great looking mold! As a breechloader I plan on running out a couple hundred 12L14 projectiles with driving band grooves, the original projectile used nylon driving bands, that might work again too, make the rings, heat them in oil, slip them over and to the grooves and press them in. The sides of the grooves could have some kind of retention geometry machined in, recover as many fired projectiles as possible and put new rings in place. Sounds like a few years of fun shooting right there.

 The gentleman said they were quite accurate. I asked him to try and recover a projectile to check the engraving but I don't remember that he did. If you search his handle "Nitrosteel" on this forum you'll find posts about his cannon and the projectiles. I think they'll be about a year (or is it two?) back.

 I don't think a steel driving band would engrave well in this bbl; too fast of a twist with fine grooves. I was thinking of using a short section of bbl incorporated into a mould to cast projectiles with the rifling on them for a breech loader.

 Be advised that whatever the material these barrels is made from is some very tough stuff to machine. I need to take it to the lab at work and find out what the heck it is.

 

[partsproduction]

I don't think a steel driving band

 The projectiles would be steel, with grooves to receive plastic driving bands.

 Watching one of the documentaries about WW1 recently I saw old footage of two guys horsing a large shell around, maybe 10" diameter, and they were pounding a straight section of square brass stock into the groove with hammers. I always wondered how they did that, but assumed it was done by a machine, I still have trouble believing that millions of shells were "Banded" by such primitive methods.

 As said, my plan is to cut grooves in the projectiles that have geometry cut into the sides that will retain the nylon rings made separately. We make many tens of thousands of parts every year and slipping a few hundred projectiles into cue shouldn't be too hard.

 If they are shot into a berm they can be "mined" and reused.

[GGaskill]

I think it wouldn't be too hard to make a groove that would take 12 gauge solid copper wire for use as a driving band.  The band doesn't have to go 100% around the projectile and the wire is soft enough to be bent by hand into the groove.

[dan610324]

maybe tin soldered to the projectile ??

[GGaskill]

It shouldn't even have to be mechanically attached.  The compression by entering the bore should grip the projectile enough to spin it.