Range Report / bad chamber

[mikejmarine]

Good afternoon all!
I just came from the rifle range here on Quantico, and well I think I might have an issue.  In the picture I’ve attached (from left to right) are 2 examples of brass fired from my H&R .243 ultra varmint rifle.  The first piece of brass (far left) is a hand load that I came up with using a recipe out of the 7th edition Hornady reloading book.
Bullet: 95grn Hornady SST
Brass: Winchester brass 
Case length: 2.0375
OCL: 2.6760
Primer: Federal large rifle match GM210M
41.0 GRN of IMR4831
 
The second piece of brass is a factory load I bought from wall mart (Federal 100 GRN soft points)  I don’t have any load data on them, but my concern is the bulge that seems to have formed.   So far I’ve only run 35 rounds though the gun but every piece of brass that has been run though the gun seems to have formed the same bulge.  Now I’ve been reloading pistol ammo for the past 2 years but this is only my second go at rifle ammo.   Is this normal?  I've never seen this before and I'm just a little worried.  I was just hoping to just resize the neck and reload them again but now I’m kinda weary about even reloading them at all.  I didn’t see any other signs of high pressure, any guesses on what could be going on? Now the last piece of brass is a new piece of brass.  I just put it there to show the difference. 

Thanks for any advice/ help you all can provide.
Mike

[jeepmann1948]

I think your rifle needs to be sent back to H&R for a new barrel.Call customer service and get a call tag for the freight. Also include the fired brass samples and request a trigger job for free. The bulge is cause by an oversized chamber, and in a h&r the only fix is to replace the barrel.Good luck, welcome aboard.
We here at GBO thank you for your service
Semper Fi
George

[Saloon slug]

jeepman is right send her back. Looking at your pick it looks like the bulge is just on one side of the case leading me to think that the base of your chamber was cut out of round.

[diddlyv]

Looks a whole lot like just about all the brass that comes out of my 308's and 06s.  The very bottom of the case really cannot change dimensionally as it is solid.  The Case walls forward of the case head do expand some in the chamber. 

If you are really concerned about an over sized chamber you can do a chamber cast and measure it.

I would actually measure your fired cases vs unfired case to see what the difference actually is.

There needs to be some slack in a chamber or rounds will not chamber or extract.

There has to be someone at quantico that can square you away.

[Fred McIntire]

Rather than send the gun off, try eMailing these pictures to H&R, or send them the fired brass and see what they have to say.

Fred

[mikejmarine]

Well dang.   I'll give my buddy over at precision weapons a call and see what they say before I get ready to send the rifle off.   I really appreciate the advice, but I wasn’t expecting to hear that I may have a bad barrel the thing shoots awesome!...oh well......  Thanks for everything and I’ll keep the thread up to date with what is going on… Thanks again!

[petemi]

Your small arms Gunny should be able to put you on the right track.  Even though you're a Jar Head, know that we all appreciate what you're doing for us, even this old Squid.  Thanks buddy, stay alive and healthy, and keep your head down.  I wish I wasn't 70 and could be with you.

Pete

[mikejmarine]

Well I decided to send in my rifle, did that back in January…..So I called Remington last week to figure out what the status is on my rifle and they told me that it was all packed up and ready to be sent back.   I inquired about the status of my original 234 barrel and the associate on the phone said that the notes on the rifle said that it was just in for fitment of a new 308 barrel.  I said that was incorrect and that the main reason the weapon was in was for warranty work on the original barrel.  The associate told me that because he didn’t see it noted on the rifles file and that he would have it pulled and checked.  He said that if I didn’t receive the rifle by today that I should call in to figure out what its status is.  Well apparently they didn’t check over the old barrel?   Not really sure because the associate that I talked today said that it’s been put on administrative hold…. Ahhh, oh well, I’m not complaining by any means even though it sounds like it.  I’m just glad I kept up on them otherwise I could have gotten a bum rifle back.  I’ve had gun work done before and it’s taken a lot longer that a few weeks to have it done. So if I get it back by the end of the month I’m going to count myself lucky… Just figured I owed an update to you all…. 

[Deerhunter#1]

Well I got one of the same barrels fit about 9 mnths ago and have went through a numbers of powders and bullets to get it ti shoot good groups at 100 yards. I was just at the range and after looking at the factory winchester brass I have the same bulge noticable on one side of the brass to the point of feeling a ridge when you run your finger over it. Let me know what you come up with as I will be calling and sending them picks of my brass tomorrow.

[Deerhunter#1]

Well I just got my return tag today. This will be the 4th time in 1 year since I bought this gun and barrel they are going back. I hope they can give me a barrel that work. I feel like they have had the gun more than I have. At some point enough is enough and I am about there with this one. I just got the receiver back getting one of the found 7.62x39 barrels fit. I took that to the range and am getting FTF on remington factory CL ammo. I know there were problems on military ammo and there hard primers but not on standard ammo.

[petemi]

My 7.62x39 Handi cracks every time even with junk Russian ammo.  Perhaps I lucked out and got a good one......and it is accurate.  It has become one of my favorite "go to" rifles.  Just now, I'm working with a slightly gun shy dog with it cause the ammo is cheap and the bang is enough to get his attention.  I have dies, etc. for it, but haven't reloaded for it yet.

Pete

[mrbgt]

The .204 barrel I have does the same thing to my brass, slightly oversize chamber . Doesn't effect accuracy though , it shoots real well. It is hard on brass, but I've loaded several cases multiple times no failures yet . 

[gcrank1]

Wonder how the brass would look if the load was backed off a tad?
FWIW, Ive never found best accuracy at max anyway.

[mrbgt]

I've noticed the Hornady brass , is holding up better , might be a little thicker , I purchased it as live ammo . The Winchester brass I bought distorts more , even though I'm not maxxing it out  .

[Deerhunter#1]

Understanding some brass holds up better than others. the ammo I am shooting is standard winchester x factory ammo. Neither of my other 4 handis come out with this bulge with factory ammo. That is my concern. Also that it is an uneven bulge as it goes around the case. As mentioned my accuracy with this barrel has never been that great. Hopefully they will be able to fit me a new barrel as this one I feel is def defective.

[mikejmarine]

Good afternoon all,
Well, I’m thoroughly disappointed.  I finally got my rifle back from H&R last week and I was able to take it out for a test shoot to see if they fixed the issue I was having with the budging brass.    Long story short, they DID NOT FIX IT, nor did they put a note or anything in the box saying what they did to it.  I called H&R service and they are sending me another shipping label to send it in to be looked at again.   Also a new issue, don’t know why or how it happened but my butt stock where it meets up with the receiver is all messed up now.  I’ll post pictures when I get home.     I think it’s sad that this wasn’t fixed, even after I called them and asked them to make sure that it was looked at before they sent it back to me.  Oh well, what are ya going to do? 

[Deerhunter#1]

Well my 243 ultra fluted as mentioned has the same issue. I was sent a return label back when this post started but wanted to get to the range one last time to shoot it as If it will get better. Hope to get there this week. I have also noticed that this barrel seems to be no longer available on the accesorry barrel list was it discontinued because of these reasons? Win x shoot ok but only two shots and then open up. I know the first one counts but would like to be able to spend some time at the range actually shooting not taking two shots and waiting 20 minutes to shoot it again. my 223 doesnt have this issue and its a standard barrel.

[Ololique]

A bulge at the base of the brass is nothing to be overly concerned about.  The base of the brass is solid through the head area, then opens up right above the head into the powder chamber.  Most manufacturers produce brass inside the Saami chamber specs for that particular round, +/- some specific tolerance.  Firearm manufacturers then cut chambers to Saami specs, and if they're mass produced rifles, they will likely be at Saami max or close to for the chamber spec.  If not, there would be a significant number of returns due to brass not fitting. 

What you're seeing is brass that's on the low side, a chamber that's on the high side, and the slack in between in being blown out during firing.  It does put a bit more strain on the brass from being work hardened, but other than that, there's absolutely nothing wrong with this.  At worst, you may get a few less firings out of reloaded cases. 

I suggest you hang on to your gun and quit sending it back to the people at H&R.  If it's shooting well and the brass isn't rupturing upon firing, then I'd consider this a non-issue.  I've seen this plenty of times and I would consider this normal.

[Deerhunter#1]

What if the bulge is only on one side of the case at the bottom.

[Ololique]

The chamber may be oblong at the base.  Poor quality control, but not a safety issue.  It may also be caused by the extractor or ejector holding the case off center in the chamber.  Regardless, it's not a big deal.  You've got a fully supported chamber and the brass is just showing the effects of a chamber not cut 100% perfectly round, or on the larger side of the specs.  Brass does nothing more than provide a sealing gasket against the chamber walls.  The brass itself, in this firearm, does not contain the pressure.  It's pressurized for sure, but the strength comes from the steel, not the case.

Again, I've seen this plenty of times.  It's an issue of tolerance stacking and mass production.  To get around this, you need to buy a large quantity of brass, do a dimensional study on base diameter and then have a custom chamber cut to your brass specs.  The only thing this will provide will be pretty brass though.  Last time I checked, game animals and targets don't care how pretty your brass is.   

[quickdtoo]

What Ololique said, more that likely the chamber is within SAAMI Specs, a chamber cast would tell you one way or another.

Tim

[trotterlg]

If you have a SAAMI spec chamber most brass will show a buldge, modern brass is at the minimum size, so what you see is mostly normal.  Also, the break action gives a little, so the brass streaches more than in a bolt gun, you will probably not be able to rechamber fired brass in your gun like you could in a bolt gun.  Larry

[Deerhunter#1]

Great info. Can a off or not centered straight cut bore cause accurace issues. That is my real concern as this gun isnt the best shooter. If its cut off center would that place the bullet off center also to start with and make it work harder to get stable before leaving the barrel. Again dont know if this would matter

[necchi]

Good point Deerhunter,
 I don't really think it's an issue with an off center chamber. It's just a fact that most Handis are generous in chamber size and more of an issue with crooked ammo.
 It's called runout in the loading world, where the bullet itself is not concentric with the case, it's actually tipped a bit. Factory ammo is not know to be the best stuff out there for low runout issues.
 I noticed a huge improvement in accuracy when I got a gauge to measure runout and took control of the issues at the bench to improve the concentricity of my loads.
 I have to aggree with the others that the mark/bulge shown in the photos by the OP are indeed quite common, I'm new enough at loading to remember being concerned when I first saw that mark too, enough to run off to a couple of local shops with cases in tow to ask about'm. Case head seperation IS an issue for the loader, but there's ways to find out if the problem is internal or just an external die mark from sizing or chamber marks from firing.
 A paper clip bent like in the pic and used to "feel" inside is one simple way. The pic shows case head seperation and it's location on some 30-06 brass. Notice how it's just above the marks show in th OP's pic's. If you look close you can see the die mark on the case on the left.

[Deerhunter#1]

Well I quess my questions have been answered and I will follow up with a range report later this week If it stops raining. Hey Tim was the 24 inch ultra 243 fluted barrel discontinued? Thanks for the help.

[mikejmarine]

Well this all makes sense but ….. When I start shooting Saturday I didn’t see the “bulge” but after about five rounds in it was noticeable, and the more I shot the worse it got.   I pulled the range safety officer and the range OIC over to take a look at the rifle.  They along with four other shooters advised me to send it back to H&R and at least get their take on it, because now instead of being on just one side it’s all the way around.   Other than getting a chamber cast, could I take a set of calipers to the shot case and compare it to the specs provided by Quickdtoo ?   Tell you what though, if I saw brass that looked like what it’s been putting out I would just toss it.  I would be scared to fire reloaded brass out this thing, for fear of case-head separation.  … Oh hey, on another note the .308 barrel they sent me shoots awesome and it doesn’t have the “bulge” even with some mildly warm hand loads in it. 

[quickdtoo]

Hey Tim was the 24 inch ultra 243 fluted barrel discontinued? Thanks for the help.

I think so, the acc barrel page has been updated and it's not there any more. They may still have some tho, you can call and ask if they have any FR03844 barrels available.

Tim

[quickdtoo]

Other than getting a chamber cast, could I take a set of calipers to the shot case and compare it to the specs provided by Quickdtoo ?   

You might be able to, but it wouldn't give you an accurate measurement of the chamber, just an idea, doesn't take into account a poorly fitted barrel, but doing a chamber cast would be the best way, Cerrosafe is easy to work with and reusable, there's a link in the FAQs on chamber casting, Site sponsor 4D carries it. IIRC, Blake has said you can use pariffin, never tried it tho, but it would be a cheap way to try.

Tim

http://www.4-dproducts.com/submenu/Cerosafe.htm

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/chambercast/index.asp

[beaverslayer]

Hey, I've seen this many many times.  Man you should see the brass that comes out of my 8mm Mauser at times.  Those case bulge a great deal and I've never had a case separation even with Max loads shot 6 or 7 times.  The reason H&R ain't fixining these guns cause there ain't nothing wrong with them.  When the bulge is on one side, it's because the chamber is a little big and the cartridge is laying on the side of the chamber when fired and the brass expands to fill the chamber.  When it's all the way around the cartridge was centered when fired.  When you resize try just partial sizing the brass and see if accuracy doesn't improve on the next firing.

[OR-E-Gun Bill]

(A rainy day project) after reading Ololique's Reply #17

This thread concerning brass bulging in Handi rifle chambers had me checking some brass measurements on two calibers, .204 Ruger and .308 Win.. All new brass taken with 5 random cases in each brand.
With the actual measurements taken vs. the specs shown on the two caliber case dimensions plus the tolerences allowed in the Handi chambers or any chamber for that matter, one would expect some degree of bulging in their fired brass as shown in the OP's picture, some more than others.
Looking at several other calibers, I do notice that Winchester brass seems to be consistanly on the low end in measuring the two spots on the cases.



Nosler brass has bulged the least in my Handi rifles, at least in my experiences.

Bill