Author Topic: The Tariff as a cause is defended  (Read 6428 times)

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Offline ironfoot

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Re: The Tariff as a cause is defended
« Reply #60 on: May 13, 2011, 10:39:11 PM »

"...in America everyone knew that from 1846 to 1861 a free trade system prevailed, and that Representative Morrill carried his protectionist tariff through Congress only in 1861, after the rebellion had already broken out. Secession, therefore, did not take place because the Morrill tariff had gone through Congress, but, at most, the Morrill tariff went through Congress because secession had taken place."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morrill_tariff
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Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: The Tariff as a cause is defended
« Reply #61 on: May 14, 2011, 12:18:47 AM »
Being that my rebuttle to wn contains the link which both explains and follows the proper time line any futher remarks debating that which comes from your link is, in my mind, not worth the effort. One only has to read the full article of my first link to understand the thinking and results at the time the event was happening versus something written some 150 years later biased by not only the time passage but the winners version. ::)
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Offline Dee

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Re: The Tariff as a cause is defended
« Reply #62 on: May 14, 2011, 01:41:30 AM »
Being that my rebuttle to wn contains the link which both explains and follows the proper time line any futher remarks debating that which comes from your link is, in my mind, not worth the effort. One only has to read the full article of my first link to understand the thinking and results at the time the event was happening versus something written some 150 years later biased by not only the time passage but the winners version. ::)

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Offline williamlayton

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Re: The Tariff as a cause is defended
« Reply #63 on: May 14, 2011, 02:18:12 AM »
Well--it seems that we all are writing 150 years later.
This history folks. It comes with a lot of points of view. All are entitled to that concept of freedom to interpret the past as they see it.
The main facts overlooked is that we either learn from it or we don't. We dang sure are not going to change it.
This is discussion not convinceing---in other words-- it is not a revival.
I certainly am not about changing opinion--I am about presenting a point of view and each must look and consider---but they don't have too accept.
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Offline wncchester

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Re: The Tariff as a cause is defended
« Reply #64 on: May 21, 2011, 02:48:36 PM »
"This tariff (on the South only) was an intrumental piece of legislation to reduce the effect/affect of European influence in America and protect American manufactureing."

Translation:  Tariffs were the biggest source of income the early Federal government had.  The Northern power structure was determined that northern industrialists would dominate the south's agricultural economy and it was being accomplished by taxing them into a 'no alternative' market for southern products, AND to tax the Souths imports so heavily as to force them to obtain inferior and high priced manufactored products from the North.   So, yeah, a lot of Northern power brokers dreamed of getting richer by expanding to the West but they - and Lincoln - intended to do it on the backs of the South.  They did it too.
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Offline williamlayton

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Re: The Tariff as a cause is defended
« Reply #65 on: May 21, 2011, 03:09:09 PM »
WN
The tariffs were not on the South. They were on imported goods. 75% of all imports went thru Northern ports. Southern ports--notably Charleston--were refusing to collect them.
Now you may argue that this gave the Northern industrialist the ability to get rich--and i won't argue that point as you are correct. The flip side of this is that also helped stabilize the American economy. The South had the wealth and resources to establish a modern (for the day) industrial base and not be dependant on Europe AND to compete with Northern industrialist. Why didn't they do this?
It is also one of the reasons the South lost.
My opinion is thet the South had no plan--especially for winning. This violates a lots of rules of warfare. It is also the reason that Lee was not the best General of the war.
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Offline wncchester

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Re: The Tariff as a cause is defended
« Reply #66 on: May 21, 2011, 03:55:53 PM »
Will, the tariffs were on goods predominately needed in the South but little of which was needed in the North, which is WHY those taxes were so great.   Products desired by the North had low tariffs.   Products made in the North were sold in the South without taxes, all contrived to force the South to pay the costs of Northern production.   If you think all that was a lofty plan of the northern industrialists and northern politicians to 'strenthen the economy of the Union' rather than lining the  pockets of the northern rich you have been deluded.

The South didn't develop a large industrial base because of economics, same as the North did do so.   Why isn't have to figger out; agriculture was much easier to do in the South and, with fairly taxed imports/exports, they could easily sell cotton, etc, to buy the superior industrial products of England and Europe.   That was NOT what the North wanted of course so they had squeezed the South almost from the founding of the Republic, and it was getting worse each year.  I doubt the North thought the South would ever seperate but when it happened they just switched to military products and got richer than they would have ever done without the war. 

The North had no plans to 'win a war' in 1861 (where did you get that idea, for either side?).  But, with virtually all of the nation's ships and industrial plants in their hands, it was no great intellectual challange to devise one of blockade, was it?   And, after only four years, with all that capacity and only four-five times the man power of the South, those really smart northern guys did in fact win the fight to subjegate the villianous South.  Nothing to it when they had such brains and human virtue on their side, right??

Prior to 1861, and for some time afterwards, the South had no plans for a war at all, much less plans of how to win one; why should they?  The South simply intended to form an economic Confederation that met the needs of the region, leaving the North to go its way in peace!  Why should they not have thought so; southern states had freely joined in the Union (of still independant states) to escape a tyrannical government and had fought much of the second half of the American (civil war) Revelotion.  And, unlike much of what had happened in the North, they usually won.  The South had no Constitutional reason to think states couldn't freely seceed if the central government became oppressive, as it had done and certainly planned to continue. 

The WAR came because of Lincoln and the indignate northern wealthy suddenly faced with the loss of easy financial pickings, not because of the South.  At that, if the fight had not begun in Charleston it would have somewhere else because Abe was determined it would be so.  None of it was to 'free slaves', that only came into the picture as a propaganda ploy to raise indignation in the northern population so they would send their sons south to die.

All of that is fact, not the 'winner's' continueing propaganda.
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Offline williamlayton

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Re: The Tariff as a cause is defended
« Reply #67 on: May 22, 2011, 01:09:32 AM »
Lots of Ideas going on here WN
Good structure--let's take each a paragraph at a time.
First: It is certainly true that the buyer of any product pays for the cost of construction + a profit. Forced is a word which needs discussing.
We cetainly desired to be a Republic--to be self sustaining. That was what it is all about.
They--the Northern industrialist--certainly wanted to be rich. Are you a Communist?
No I am not deluded--but that staement shows that you don't understand economics.
Europe did not have superior products OR tecnology.
This can better be understood by the embarog's and tariffs imposed by England on John Deere. They made the singlebest plows in the world at the time. Stainless steel--a break-thru teccnology.
You are blameing the wrong folks when you claim the North was the only ones that wanted riches. That was what the South was all about and it was on the backs of slaves.
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I get the idea that the South had no plans to win from the facts that they had no plans to win.
What were they going to do with the North if they won? Armistice? Well, you don't leave your enemy intact when you win and walk away. that snake will heal and bite you in the butt.
Yoy need to read some basics in warfare and winning. Try some Chinese thoughts for a basics.
No the South had no plan and ws doomed because of it.
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If you are going to start a war--come into conflict with someone--it is stupid not to have a plan. It got the South defeated. It got Lee defeated.

IF easy financial pickings is the best arguement you have for engaging in war then you don't understand finance 101.
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Offline BAGTIC

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Re: The Tariff as a cause is defended
« Reply #68 on: July 29, 2011, 01:43:49 PM »
The southern states seceded and what did the Union do? Nothing. Not one effort was made to force them back in.

Then why was Lincoln ramping up to invade the states that had left the Union?  Why did he flatly refuse to pull federal troops from southern soil?
He wasn't. What troops from what southern soil.?

And why were there so many northern editorials saying that the southern states needed to be forced back because of the loss of trade  that the north would suffer if the South as allowed to leave?  Since when do newspaper editorials equal government policy? Journalists were just as big as**holes then as they are now. Sorry, but your picture of the federals just having a garden party that those evil southerners fired on is revisionist garbage.

Offline BAGTIC

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Re: The Tariff as a cause is defended
« Reply #69 on: July 29, 2011, 01:53:35 PM »
Lots of Ideas going on here WN
Good structure--let's take each a paragraph at a time.
First: It is certainly true that the buyer of any product pays for the cost of construction + a profit. Forced is a word which needs discussing.
We cetainly desired to be a Republic--to be self sustaining. That was what it is all about.
They--the Northern industrialist--certainly wanted to be rich. Are you a Communist?
No I am not deluded--but that staement shows that you don't understand economics.
Europe did not have superior products OR tecnology. Europe DID have superior products and technology. It was largely the demands of the war that stimulated the development of American industry. Our steel mills and machinery were vastly inferior at that time. BTW the South did not develope much of an industrial base because it is difficult to support such a base using illiterate slave labor. Ask the Nazis how 'slave labor' worked out fot them. Slavery also destroyed the local market for such products. Slaves don't buy much.
This can better be understood by the embarog's and tariffs imposed by England on John Deere. They made the singlebest plows in the world at the time. Stainless steel--a break-thru teccnology. John Deere was not making stainless steel plows.
You are blameing the wrong folks when you claim the North was the only ones that wanted riches. That was what the South was all about and it was on the backs of slaves.
Blessings

I get the idea that the South had no plans to win from the facts that they had no plans to win.
What were they going to do with the North if they won? Armistice? Well, you don't leave your enemy intact when you win and walk away. that snake will heal and bite you in the butt.
Yoy need to read some basics in warfare and winning. Try some Chinese thoughts for a basics.
No the South had no plan and ws doomed because of it.
Blessings

If you are going to start a war--come into conflict with someone--it is stupid not to have a plan. It got the South defeated. It got Lee defeated.

IF easy financial pickings is the best arguement you have for engaging in war then you don't understand finance 101.
Blessings

Offline subdjoe

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Re: The Tariff as a cause is defended
« Reply #70 on: July 29, 2011, 02:28:37 PM »
The southern states seceded and what did the Union do? Nothing. Not one effort was made to force them back in.

Then why was Lincoln ramping up to invade the states that had left the Union?  Why did he flatly refuse to pull federal troops from southern soil?
He wasn't. What troops from what southern soil.?

And why were there so many northern editorials saying that the southern states needed to be forced back because of the loss of trade  that the north would suffer if the South as allowed to leave?  Since when do newspaper editorials equal government policy? Journalists were just as big as**holes then as they are now. Sorry, but your picture of the federals just having a garden party that those evil southerners fired on is revisionist garbage.

Ever hear of a place in SC called Ft. Sumter? 

No, and I never said that editorials were federal policy.  They do however reflect public sentiment and, often, government policy.  I offered them not as something representing policy, but to show the mindset of the day.  From the hundreds I've read, it would almost seem that the sentiment of the north was for waging war for the purposes of keeping southern money flowing into federal coffers, and to prevent loss of shipping to the Confederacy with its much lower tariff (10% v. 46%).  When the public demands a war for economic reasons, they usually get it.  When a government sees a revenue source it depends on dry up, it will usually go to war to keep it. 

ADDED:  I've seen few editorials before the shooting started that said anything about ending slavery.    A few, yes, but the majority I have read put the economic benefit of the north as the reason.
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Offline BAGTIC

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Re: The Tariff as a cause is defended
« Reply #71 on: July 30, 2011, 06:41:57 AM »
Fort Sumter was NOT Confederate territory. It was Union territory as was Fort Moultrie from which Union troops had earlier been forced.
http://www.civilwarhome.com/sumterownership.htm
I have seen on this thread the Battle of Fort Sumter described as 'bloodless'. It was not though losses were slight. Nonetheless the attack on the fort and the earlier attack on the Union vessel Star of the West which was attempting to deliver supplies to the fort was itself an act of war.
http://www.civilwarhome.com/timeline.htm
Notice the timeline. See how long the process of secession had been going on. During all this time the Union had not taken any action against the seceding states. It was only after the Attack on Fort Sumter that the Union began defensive preparations of Washington, D.C. itself. Now the Confederate states had every legal right to secede. Support of States Rights was widespread throughout the nation, North and South. The North did not seek a war. They were desperately seeking a reaceful reconciliation. The southern secessionist movement had begun long before Lincoln even took office. The problem was the grandiose  delusions of many southern political leaders. They certainly take no back seat to the likes of Mummar Gadaffi as megalomaniacs. They lead (mislead?) their people into a devastating and unwinnable war the consequences of which generations. The economic, political, and social implications of the Civil War lasted until after WW2.  The worst part is that it is still not over. It provided the basis of a still existant cult which permeates much of southern culture. The 'glorious legend' of the Old South has become a fantasy, a caricature by which many southerners seek to claim a tiny bit of a glory that never existed. They fit into the same category as the never say die neo-nazis and Japanese right wingers. It would be comical if it were not so tragic. Instead of letting the wounds heal they persist in picking at an old scab.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: The Tariff as a cause is defended
« Reply #72 on: July 30, 2011, 10:13:40 AM »
According to John Deere they were able to get superior steel for their plows in the 1840's---from Northern steel mills.
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: The Tariff as a cause is defended
« Reply #73 on: July 30, 2011, 10:44:38 AM »
According to John Deere they were able to get superior steel for their plows in the 1840's---from Northern steel mills.
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Quote
John Deere in the 1800's
Posted by Green Fun Store on 3/21/2011 to History of John Deere
The 1800's were an extremely important time in the history of John Deere and began the trend towards innovation that would make them a household name for decades to come, according to the Appalachian Blacksmiths Association.

In 1838, John Deere himself invented a plow made from steel, an addition that was completely unheard of at the time. The idea took off with flying colors, with Deere and Co. selling thousands by 1853. The steel was a vast improvement over the iron-forged plow that was previously used by most people and provided a longer lasting product that could be easily repaired if broken.

The U.S. steel industry was extremely underdeveloped at this time and made poor-quality products, something that forced Deere to import steel from England to create a superior product. The decision, of course, paid dividends. Deere became the most respected name in the industry and was the only place people would shop if they wanted a quality product.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: The Tariff as a cause is defended
« Reply #74 on: July 30, 2011, 12:08:15 PM »
In 1846 John Deere began purchasing quality steele from Jones & Quiggs steel works in Pittsburg.
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: The Tariff as a cause is defended
« Reply #75 on: July 30, 2011, 04:37:27 PM »
Which does not negate that Deere, after not being able to get good quality steel from US mills bought superior quality steel from England. 

By the way, did you ever dig up doc on your claim of England slapping an embargo on Deere poughs?  Or are we just supposed to accept that as fact, like your claim that Deere was producing stainless steel ploughs in the 1830s or 1840s?
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: The Tariff as a cause is defended
« Reply #76 on: July 30, 2011, 07:10:44 PM »
I'm still not sure it wasn't stainless but I will bow to your needs and confess it was good American Steel.
I don't agree with your quick net one paragraph conclusion.
The North sure produced some good quality steel to fight the war with.
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: The Tariff as a cause is defended
« Reply #77 on: July 30, 2011, 08:27:32 PM »
Why don't you do a bit of research on stainless steel, Billy?  Maybe also research "forge welding stainless steel."  And a thought experiment for you, if stainless was being produced in quantities to allow its use for ploughs, why are there no stainless steel ploughs or parts of them in existence now?  Why are there no other stainless steel manufactured goods from that period in existence? 

And how about some documentation on that embargo.

Oh, and doing more research for you:

Quote
By May 24,1839, Deere had built three more plows, and before the year was over he had produced a total of ten. The plows sold for ten to twelve dollars each, which was a considerable purchase for a farmer of that day. In 1840 Deere produced forty plows; in 1841, seventy-five; in 1842, one hundred; and in 1843, four hundred. That does not seem like a great number by today's standards, but in addition to the shortage of funds, farmers were still skeptical about the durability and usability of the plow. Deere had to establish a reputation as a manufacturer of superior plows. However, according to historian Wayne G. Broehl, Jr.: "It was largely his [Deere's] ability to dramatize these products and get them into the hands of his customer... that made him a success."


The demand for broken saw blades for plow shares exceeded the existing supply, and plow makers looked elsewhere for satisfactory steel. Deere purchased steel from Sheffield, England, at a cost of $300 per ton, but it still required polishing for proper scouring. In 1844 he secured improved steel produced by Lyon Sharb & Company of St. Louis, which he used for the plow share, but he continued using wrought iron for the moldboard. In 1846 his search for steel similar to what was made in Sheffield ended when Jones and Quigg Steel Works of Pittsburgh produced the first slab of cast plow steel made in the United States. This was far superior to any other steel on the market.

that from http://www.lib.niu.edu/2001/iht810102.html

I'm still not sure it wasn't stainless but I will bow to your needs and confess it was good American Steel.
I don't agree with your quick net one paragraph conclusion.
The North sure produced some good quality steel to fight the war with.
Blessings
Your ob't & etc,
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Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline BUGEYE

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Re: The Tariff as a cause is defended
« Reply #78 on: July 31, 2011, 03:49:32 AM »
can't say if they were stainless but metalurgists of the time were starting to mix in chromium to cut down on corrosion.  true stainless came along circa 1900.
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Offline williamlayton

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Re: The Tariff as a cause is defended
« Reply #79 on: July 31, 2011, 04:16:19 AM »
On to another discussion--this one is growing whiskers.
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Offline SouthernByGrace

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Re: The Tariff as a cause is defended
« Reply #80 on: August 03, 2011, 03:16:56 PM »
I'm still not sure it wasn't stainless but I will bow to your needs and confess it was good American Steel.
I don't agree with your quick net one paragraph conclusion.
The North sure produced some good quality steel to fight the war with.
Blessings

William, that wasn't Steel they used to fight the war with, it was Iron. Cannon weren't made of steel, but iron. Trains were made of iron, as well as the rails they traveled on.

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Offline williamlayton

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Re: The Tariff as a cause is defended
« Reply #81 on: August 03, 2011, 10:49:41 PM »
Rifles were iron? Check with Colt on this one.
Winchester?---Rails of iron? Not sure about that--might have been but I would bet on steel.
Cannon were brass--IMO.
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: The Tariff as a cause is defended
« Reply #82 on: August 04, 2011, 04:27:09 AM »
"With Artillery war is made."
Your ob't & etc,
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Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: The Tariff as a cause is defended
« Reply #83 on: August 05, 2011, 10:58:51 AM »
Not if you have an air force.
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