sierra matchking

[jimneye]

Can the 70gr matchking in .243 be used for hunting deer or coyote?  Is it strictly a target round?

[SHOOTALL]

If they worked on deer then they would not need to make GameKing bullets . The HP is for areodynimics not to expand.

[necchi]

 While people do use them for hunting game, and they are the bullet used by the military in some ammunition, it is known to have unreliable terminal damage to game. 4 legged mammals are simply built different than the 2 legged kind and can simply survive major trauma better or are capable of running off somewhere to hide and die than man.
 About the best artical I've seen is in this link that shows bullet expansion and fragmentation of several bullets at different velocities;
(some screen magnification is needed)(it's dated but the pictures speak for themselves)
http://stevespages.com/jpg/bestbullet.jpg

 I guess I'd use'm on yotes if I didn't care about the hide and simply wanted to dispatch the vermin without regard to whether or not the animal dropped right there or not. Several other smaller varmint would be on the list also.
 But with deer I want something that will leave a proper wound channel and damage so I can recover my meat. There's simply too many other really great bullets made for hunting big game.
But those SMK's sure do fly nice don't they? 

[243dave]

I love the 70gr matchking in my 243's, they are very accurate.  I've only shot two deer with them and it killed them.  Muzzle velocity was probably over 3500fps and range of the first was a little over 150yds and it was a small doe.  The shot was placed behind the shoulder and it ran 75yds before dying.  The exit wound was about the size of a 50cent piece.  I was surprised the bullet exited but it was a very small deer.  The second deer(average sized doe) was at 30 yards with no exit when shot behind the shoulder and I can't remember if it ran or died right there, this happened ten years back.  The bullets did kill but for deer I want a bullet that exits and leaves a big hole, the 70gr matchking won't be dependable or consistant for this, it lacks the weight to be a good deer bullet and the explosiveness for a good coyote bullet.  In my opinion the 70 matchking is a awesome target bullet but there are much better hunting bullets out there.     Dave    

[sabbatus]

the ones used in military rounds are for match purpose only, they are not to be issued for, or used in combat.  They are primarily for target competition, and for armorers to check accuracy improvements.   Now dont get me wrong i know guys that carried them in the desert, and they proved more than once that they are not for any living targets

[Grumulkin]

the ones used in military rounds are for match purpose only, they are not to be issued for, or used in combat.  They are primarily for target competition, and for armorers to check accuracy improvements.   Now dont get me wrong i know guys that carried them in the desert, and they proved more than once that they are not for any living targets

Actually, Sierra match bullets are used in U. S. military sniper rounds.  I'm going to tell ya'll some things that apparently many don't know.

1.  You can stick a 27 gauge needle just about anywhere in the body and death will be unlikely to occur.

2.  Once you get up to an 18 gauge needle size, you can create a wound in a large vessel so death will occur but probably slowly.  Put the same needle into a chest cavity and a pneumothorax could occur which, if it became a tension pneumothorax, could kill the victim.  The same needle in the heart could also kill.

3.  If you're at a wound diameter of 17 caliber and put a hole in the heart or major blood vessel of a deer, bear or lesser animal, said animal will in all likelihood die.  If you put that bullet in bowel, unless somehow it creates an abscess that is walled off, the animal will most likely die in a few days.  If you put that bullet in the chest and it only enters one lung, it will cause a pneumothorax which, if it becomes a tension pneumothorax, will kill the animal.  If the same bullets penetrates both lungs it will cause bilateral tension pneumothoraces (i.e., collapsed lungs), which isn't survivable.  Of course, the trick is to get a 17 caliber bullet to vital organs so, if you're using one on a large animal it better be a solid to ensure penetration.

4.  Cartridges with more power, give better penetration increasing your options for shot angles, ranges, etc.  A bullet that expands simply causes a bigger hole and faster dispatching of an animal on lung and heart shots.

People kill deer and larger animals with arrows which don't expand.  Plenty of game animals have been killed with solid lead balls and bullets which don't expand.  The biggest and most dangerous animals such as elephant, rhino and cape buffalo are frequently hunted with solids which don't expand.  It's simply laughable to claim that Sierra match bullets won't kill game animals because they don't expand.  By they way, match bullets act much like a solid with very good penetration and frequently they fragment and/or tumble which increased tissue damage and speeds death.

By the way, I've shot all sorts of animals with so called match bullets from groundhogs up to deer and pronghorn with Berger VLDs and can testify they're just fine.  My bullet of choice for an African Wildcat and a Black Backed Jackal were 300 gr. FMJ bullets out of a 375 H&H Magnum and guess what?  The Jackal ran maybe 10 yards and the Wildcat was DRT.  You guys who say match bullets don't leave a good exit wound or blood trail, simply don't know what you're talking about.

By they way, I've taken a deer with a .20 caliber 45 grain bullet.  Would anyone who doesn't think a 70 gr. bullet is heavy enough like to guess what the range was?

[243dave]

Grumulkin, the question asked in the OP is about the 70gr matchking out of a 243.  We all know the VLD's have a good track record but they are not the bullets in question.  A 70gr matchking out of the 243 is not a great bullet for deer or coyote, sure it will kill them but there are better ones.  In deer they lack penetration when compared to a 100gr bullet and for coyotes they lack the explosiveness most people desire.  Of course a .20cal 45 grain bullet will kill deer, a 22 rimfire will too, but what is your point ?  Personally I like the 70gr matchking for turkey hunting in fields they expand but is not super explosive like a ballistic tip or v-max of the same weight.  When it comes to deer, light for caliber match bullets are not as good as a normal or heavy for caliber bullets designed for big game, I imagine you know this.  Of course a light match bullet will kill, no one will argue they won't, I just happen to know there are many better bullets for hunting than the 70gr matchking.     Dave 

[necchi]

You guys who say match bullets don't leave a good exit wound or blood trail, simply don't know what you're talking about.

Haven't seen anyone say that.

 I want something to kill the deer faster than waiting for an animal to finally succum to a small pnemothorax, There are simply several better choices.
 Sure the SMK will fly better in almost every gun out there when compared to an average cup-n-core or bonded hunting bullet of comparable cost, but is 1/2 moa or smaller needed when hunting Deer?
 The average guy at the range the week before season is happy with "pie plate" accuracy at 100  

[Lloyd Smale]

why would you feel a need to when theres much better bullets to hunt with.

[Grumulkin]

In regards to coyote, why use an "explosive" bullet?  Of course you can but why would you need to?  We're talking about a dog; a Sierra Match King out of a 243 is more than enough.

In addition, a .243 caliber bullet or even a .224 caliber will cause more than a "small pneumothorax."  It's kind of like how a single sperm with cause more than a small pregnancy.

I'm also simply amazed that one would talk about supposedly better hunting bullets and then go on to say that pie sized 100 yard accuracy was acceptable for some; it's not close acceptable for me.  Put your pie sized accuracy great hunting bullet in a leg and see what happens.  Following that, put your 1/2 MOA inferior for hunting match bullet in the neck or through the lungs and watch what happens.

In my opinion, accuracy is king.  I would rather use an accurate match bullet than a wonderful hunting bullet with less than acceptable accuracy.  All that said, I use bunches of mainstream hunting bullets but not because I've drunk the cool aid provided by bullet manufacturers who want you to buy their supposedly better bullets.

[cwlongshot]

Can the 70gr matchking in .243 be used for hunting deer or coyote?  Is it strictly a target round?

The answer is yes and yes its designed as a target round. BUT... It's labled MATCHKING. Like Shootall said, if you wanna hunt with one use a GAMEKING.

 This same question brings up a lot of feelings and opinions. I suggest you go to SIERRA, and read what they say about the bullet that they make...

 Personally, Like many, I have strong opinions here. I feel we OWE more to the game we hunt. We should dispatch as quickly and humanely as possible. It's not about the ability to kill as a death that takes a week or a second has the same end result. IMHO that's a foolish talking. I DO NOT use any MATCH or FMJ bullet for big game hunting. Now for the coyote, if your a pelt hunter FMJs can be a option, but pick your shots well, as the idea is to RECOVER what you shoot... I still prefer a expandable bullet.

CW

[necchi]

Geez Grumulkin, you can twist a mans words. Of course you can kill a deer with a .17, heck you can do it with a snare. But I wouldn't do it unless I was starving.
You Sir have a different ethic than I, and I wish you a good day. 

[cwlongshot]

Why would you feel a need to, when theres much better bullets to hunt with.

To my way of thinking,  this about sums it up... 

CW

[Lloyd Smale]

buddy and i have tested and killed animals with lots of .223 bullets and hands down the best one for deer sized game is the 60 grain partition.

[Grumulkin]

Geez Grumulkin, you can twist a mans words. Of course you can kill a deer with a .17, heck you can do it with a snare. But I wouldn't do it unless I was starving.
You Sir have a different ethic than I, and I wish you a good day. 

Ethics?

When I lived in Pennsylvania, my dog alerted me to a wounded deer a bit after gun season.  It was a nice buck with a rear leg hanging by shreds of tissue no doubt caused by an "adequate" cartridge with "ethical" hunting bullets.  Who knows, it may have been shot by a hunter satisfied with "pie sized" 100 yard groups.  Apparently it's unappreciated but I'm merely trying to educate you gentlemen about how bullets dispatch game.  A supposedly inadequate bullet in the right place with stop a deer or whatever a lot faster that a "premium" bullet from someone satisfied with pie sized accuracy in the wrong place.  Perhaps one of you would like to explain why solids and not expanding bullets are used on elephant?  Then explain to my why a solid wouldn't kill a deer?  Why is it ethical to use a solid on an elephant and not on a deer?  Then tell me what the purpose of frangible bullets is and how they work.  You do know, I presume, that frangible bullets have been marketed for big game hunting.

By the way, I took 6 deer last year.  Nothing I hit got away and the furthest anyone of them got was about 30 feet.  Three were DRT.

[cwlongshot]

Geez Grumulkin, you can twist a mans words.

Ethics?

When I lived in Pennsylvania, My dog alerted me to a wounded deer a bit after gun season.
#1 It was a nice buck with a rear leg hanging by shreds of tissue no doubt caused by an "adequate" cartridge with "ethical" hunting bullets.  Who knows, it may have been shot by a hunter satisfied with "pie sized" 100 yard groups.
#2 Apparently it's unappreciated but I'm merely trying to educate you gentlemen about how bullets dispatch game. 
#3 A supposedly inadequate bullet in the right place with stop a deer or whatever a lot faster that a "premium" bullet from someone satisfied with pie sized accuracy in the wrong place. 
#4 Perhaps one of you would like to explain why solids and not expanding bullets are used on elephant? 
#5 Then explain to my why a solid wouldn't kill a deer?
#6 Why is it ethical to use a solid on an elephant and not on a deer? 
#7 Then tell me what the purpose of frangible bullets is and how they work. 
#8 You do know, I presume, that frangible bullets have been marketed for big game hunting.

#9 By the way, I took 6 deer last year.  Nothing I hit got away and the furthest anyone of them got was about 30 feet.  Three were DRT.

Grumilkin, OMG, Necchi is rite!! You CAN twist things around now can’t you!?!? You must like stirring the pot, as I know you have been around and I am quite sure you know the REAL answers to your questions.

Having said that, I’m game for some good natured sparing, I’ll decipher your partial truths and out of context comments…

I inserted some # into your quote and I’ll go thru them here…

1) So you SAW a hunter shoot this deer in the ham? You KNOW it was shot buy a firearm incapable of acceptable accuracy? Or Are you ASS umeing these things? You know full well the exact same FMJ placed bullet would quite likely have left that animal the very same slow painful death.

2) This statement reminds me of another statement.. ”Its best to keep quite and be thought of as ignorant than open your month and remove all doubt.”

3) Bullets weather FMJ or expandable bullets kill the same way. They punch holes thru (hopefully) vital organs. The simple fact is expandable are more efficient doing it.

4) Here is another one I KNOW you know the reason!! Because African game is TOUGH, HEAVY muscles and boned and thick skinned! What you didn’t mention is there is a MINIMUM bullet diameter! Most places it is .375 diameter. Also brain shots are common place of the elephants. Solids ARE occasionally used, but they are super tough bullets. Solids are needed because the penetration needed to reach the vitals and break those big bones. Again YOU KNOW THIS! How does it relate to Whitetails here in USA?

5) Its been stated MANY times. NO ONE said a solid would not kill. The do, no argument. BUT under the MORAL and ETHICAL obligations EXPANDABLES are what is LEGAL in most states. NOT FMJ bullets. Can YOU can answer me that one?

6) Again mostly answered in #4. But because an elephant is HUGE, EXTREAMLY thick skinned and heavy boned. Penetration is the name of the game. Expansion would still be very beneficial for the big pachyderms, but no one can shoulder fire a firearm that would provide enough penetration with one. Generally speaking you done brain shoot Mr. Whitetail.

7) Who is talking about “Frangible” bullets? Expandable bullets, cause MORE disruption to the vital organs. Just look at a gell block shot with a FMJ compared to one shot with the same weight and diameter expandable bullet. Cause more hemorrhaging and better bone breaking results.

NO I do not! Frangible bullets are designed to totally disintegrate after impact. Nearly eliminating the chance of damage to surrounding personal or property. EXPANDABLE bullets are designed to penetrate adequately for the game they are built for while nearly doubling their diameter to disrupt a larger area. A larger wound channel and faster more humane kills are the result.

9) I am happy to read this. I never doubted your ability to hit what you shoot at.

Again, I am quite certain that you know the answers to your comments and are merely stirring the pot here…

CW

[Tom W.]

God forbid someone should mention cast bullets....

[Grumulkin]

cwlongshot,

I didn't see the hunter shoot the deer in the ham but, given the usual guns/bullets used, averages heavily favor the use of an "adequate" cartridge and a hunting bullet.  Now, if an FMJ or match bullet had been used, the wound to the leg would have been much smaller and the bullet probably would have penetrated quite a bit better making it much more likely the deer wouldn't have died a miserable lingering death.

I mentioned a couple of times that bullet placement was the key issue and I would prefer an accurate bullet over a supposed hunting bullet that wasn't so accurate.

You of course are entirely right that bullets kill by putting holes in vital organs and that the reason solids are used for elephant is for penetration.  If the area on the animal is selected appropriately, however, whether deer or elephant, a solid, match or FMJ bullet will dispatch said animal cleanly and without the meat or hide damage inherent to expanding bullets.  I also would not advocate using any type of ammunition was was in violation of game laws but, believe it or not, FMJ and solids are legal for certain uses including deer in the U.S.A.  Regulations vary in Africa but in South Africa, solids are not only legal but even recommended for certain types of big game hunting other than dangerous game.

This is the exit wound on a Steenbok taken in South Africa with a 340 Weatherby Magnum.  We had been advised to bring some solids and my friend, reading on a box of Barnes XLC bullets, saw they were "solid copper."  Solid copper, true, but not solids in the true sense of the word.  The PH also advised shooting the animal right behind the chest but, in the heat of battle, a lung shot was taken.  The taxidermist had a bit of work on that one.

A groundhog taken with a 190 gr. Sierra Match King out of a 300 Win. Mag.  It didn't go far.

The entry wound on the rear of the left rear leg of a deer I took with a 25/06 shooting a Berger 115 gr. VLD.  The deer was departing and angling away.  I had intended an angling chest shot but got a little too far back and thus made a version of the Texas heart shot.  This is where great penetration is a good thing since the deer died anyway and didn't have a leg with most of the meat ruined dangling by shreds of tissue.

[243dave]

You keep talking about hunting bullets as if they are inaccurate, thats not true, most are accurate and a few very accurate.  If you have a modern gun that shoots hunting bullets in groups no better than pie plate sizes its time to trade it off or get a new barrel.  The only semi-custom gun I ever had would shoot its best 100yd groups with 180gr sierra pro-hunters, and I tried many different match bullets in it, it averaged in the .3's with the 180gr pro-hunters for five shots.  Of course this goes to show that some guns just prefer some bullets over others and on average I admitt match bullets are more accurate, but it also goes to show that some hunting bullets has some great accuracy potential.  Match bullets will generally be superior in accuracy to hunting bullets only in custom or semi-custom guns.  What I mean by this is most factory guns are not accurate enough to take full advantage of the accuracy potential of match bullets.  Most match bullets have the potential to shoot in the .1's and under but a factory gun will not show this because they may not be able to produce a group better than .5" regardless of the bullet used.  After a bit of load development I can just about get any hunting bullet to shoot under a inch and half with any of my bolt actions and usually under a inch.  The 190 matchkings is a awsome bullet out of the 300mag for hunting and targets, I wouldn't have no hesitation of using it deer hunting again, they're good.  The 115gr vld's have a good reputation for big game and berger even recommends them, but we will have to agree to disagree on the 70gr .243 matchkings, there are better choices when it comes to hunting deer and coyotes.    Dave       

[Grumulkin]

Actually, what I said was that if I were to choose between an accurate match bullet and an inaccurate hunting bullet, I would choose the match bullet.  I agree with you, many hunting bullets are very accurate and if accuracy is acceptable, I'm quite happy using them.

[SHOOTALL]

If they worked on deer then they would not need to make GameKing bullets . The HP is for areodynimics not to expand.

If those who produce the bullets advise to use other bullets than match bullets for hunting that should be enough. Ya'll have gone on about what a bullet does in game . I think anyone with a grain of brain knows a good hit is better than a poor one. An expanding bullet in a deer ( LIGHT SKINNED CRITTER) that expands is better in that if a GOOD shot is made it will do more damage . As far a going thru a solid will and most expanding will also. I have shot them and had the bullet go thru from chest to hind quarter . Lets look at the bullet that goes thru. or heven forbid misses. In some places its a danger where deer are hunted Either match king bullets or FMJ are both more dangerous in this case. Some locations don't allow FMG for hunting for this reason . I don't have the name of a location that does not allow match kings for hunting but it seems there are some.


Some where between a 22 solid short and a 458 win mag 500 gr. steel jacketed solid there are hundreds of better bullets for deer . But both will kill deer ,
The 243 vs the 22 . depends on bullet and case. A 40 gr. 223 in a 1-9 twist , I wouldn't make it my go to gun. A 1-7 twist with a 68 or 70 + gr. bullet why not if a sensable hunter takes good % shots ?And the case is large enough to give the fuel to get enough speed.
Part of the problem is compared to 22 bullets/rifles there are very few in 243 on the market.

[cwlongshot]

Just to clarify, Match bullets can and do expand, but its a secondary consideration to accuracy. They are built with consistency and accuracy not expansion. They just aren't designed to expand, but are not built like a FMJ either.

Actually, what I said was that if I were to choose between an accurate match bullet and an inaccurate hunting bullet, I would choose the match bullet.  I agree with you, many hunting bullets are very accurate and if accuracy is acceptable, I'm quite happy using them.

 NOW YOUR TALKIN, Grumulkin!!!

CW

[Kurt L]

I got a bunch of these bullets you are asking about cheap
the 70 matchking .
I loaded and test a bunch for my 6mm rem improved and got them at 4000 fps.
FAST and TINY GROUPS
but NOT FOR GAME they do not work!!!!!!!!!!
I have shot crows at 50 yards that only loose a couple feathers ,with my 243 and 58vmax
they blow up.
deer they suck also for this I have killed many a deer with 243win rather it be 58vmax or
95sst and never lost or even had to track a deer with it.
I shot one with the 70 matchking at about 100 yds and it fell like a ton of bricks,then
 jumped up and gone.
lost blood after 50 yds and never found the deer.
I will not shoot game with these any longer.
I am going to try 70 ballistic tips and I am sure they will do the job.

They just do not open or mushroom for this they may do good for fur and coyote etc or
shooting paper.