Letters to editor on abortion.

[powderman]

IRONGLOW, DDZ. Thanks for the links. These libs should see exactly what kind of low lifes they voted for and still support. POWDERMAN. 

[bigbird09]

ok powderman I got another one for ya.  Its not really much to argue about, I just wanna hear you opinion more than anything.  Say abortion is outright outlawd, so that people that would have probably originally went to the clinic to get an abortion now don't have that option,  so that lead to them trying to "self-abort" which lead to the death of the baby, as well as injuring the mother all because she couldn't go to the clinic to get it done the right way.

[powderman]

BIGBIRD09. I would not feel sorry for a woman being injured herself while trying to kill an innocent baby. The sterile environments today leave little risk to the female wanting to kill her child, thereby increasing the use of abortion for females not wanting to be bothered with raising a child. As long as there is also a risk for the female, I believe the numbers of butchered babies will be drastically decreased and lives saved. I say females because a woman has a natural instinct to bear her young and a real mother would do everything possible to protect her child, and never consider murdering it. Hope this answers your question. Not sure if you are familiar with the Bible but God told Jeremiah, I knew ye before I formed ye in the womb, eaning life begins at conception. These pro death folks love to throw around all kinds of different names, but rest assured, they are talking about flesh and blood human life, not some kind of blob. POWDERMAN. 

[teamnelson]

Maybe "FIFTY MILLION" blastospheres and fetuses but I doubt even 1,000 babies were aborted

junior, you really got to the key difference between the two sides on the abortion debate. It is a comfort to the pro-choice movement to believe that what is being aborted is not a baby, but "blastopheres and fetuses."

You also indicated that you believe morality is deterimined by a majority view, a belief I've heard articulated as what is moral is what the consensus of the people believe is moral. As a sometime professor of ethics I appreciate the nuance in that belief.

So let's put the issue of abortion to a public vote, in order to allow the majority view to be expressed in order that morality might be determined (per your stated view)? Or is there a fear that perhaps the majority are not pro-choice, and therefore your view would be determined as immoral? Would it not be best to give the public their choice in the matter?

[billy_56081]

powderman,

i hear your point but what is say it was a young girl say 16-18  know generally they say its bad for girls that yoing to have kids but it happens every day i know, but say shes raped she then has to take the child of her raper to term  thats 9 months that she would have to deal with the baby and it would ne hard enough on a girl that young with being raped let alone having the kid  even if she did give it up.   Now i dont have a problem with it if she can do so with out sever mental and physical implications  which can be had given the case you decribed,  but i can also atest to the stories that i have read where the girl committed suicided because of this.   Another thing that i want to bring up is prenatsl care isnt cheap  nietjer is being in the hopital for even a couple days   whos is to pay for that the girl?  her parents?   I know its bad to bring up money when dealing with a human life but why should the stupidity of and ignorate fool put a family into nore hardship then just having there kid raped?

My friends adopted daughter was the product of rape. Had her mother aborted her my friend and our whole community would have missed what a star this child became. She is the first and only student from our school district to have been a didvision one full athletic scholership winner.

And Jr good luck in the ever after. I know what I support is ok with God. Do you? I'd say I'll see ya on the other side, but I doubt I will.

[bigbird09]

And Jr good luck in the ever after. I know what I support is ok with God. Do you? I'd say I'll see ya on the other side, but I doubt I will.

I doubt you will as well.  I'm not much of a religious person.  Do I believe in the possibility of a god, sure, but until he come up to me and introduces himself or presents himself somehow to me I am a skeptic.  Same as I believe in aliens and big foot,  but that is off topic from this post and is neither here nor there.

Levi

[DDZ]

ok powderman I got another one for ya.  Its not really much to argue about, I just wanna hear you opinion more than anything.  Say abortion is outright outlawd, so that people that would have probably originally went to the clinic to get an abortion now don't have that option,  so that lead to them trying to "self-abort" which lead to the death of the baby, as well as injuring the mother all because she couldn't go to the clinic to get it done the right way.

If abortion was outlawed, I guess people might have to use some other means of birth control, instead of murdering a human being. Or how about some personal responsibility. I know, its just so much easier to kill the problem instead of taking responsibility for your actions.

Please define getting it done "the right way". An abortion is the act of killing another human. There is no right way about it.
I figure this doctor thought he was getting it done the right way. I wonder how many of these clinics there are.
 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41154527/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/    

[powderman]

BIGBIRD09. Can you imagine being tiller the killer, the baby butcher, that was killed himself? He bragged about killing over 30,000 babies in his career. I would not want to be in his shoes right now.
TEAMNELSON. Right you are about about the pro death crowd. They call babies all number of different things to try and justify that they are not killing human beings, but they know they are. I reckon if a  farmer plants corn and it drowns out when it's about 5 ft tall, but hasn't produced an ear yet,  they haven't lost a crop of corn, only some meaningless stalks. Same rationale. POWDERMAN. 

[bigbird09]

Please define getting it done "the right way". An abortion is the act of killing another human. There is no right way about it.
I figure this doctor thought he was getting it done the right way. I wonder how many of these clinics there are.

I'm meaning right way as in more safe then trying to stab yourself with a coat hanger right way.

Powderman I got another Q for you,

At what point do you consider a fetus/baby alive is it upon conception, or at the point that it's heart starts beating in the womb, etc.

[powderman]

BIGBIRD09. I think I posted this before but, In the Bible God told his prophet Jeremiah, I knew ye before I formed thee in the womb. Thats tells me that God is saying that life begins at conception. It can be found in the 1st chapter of Jeremiah, verses 4 and 5. Charlie. 

[beerbelly]

I don't believe in god, and when I was younger I had no problem with abortion. It at that time was just a solution to a problem.
  Well my grandson has gotten his girl friend pregnant. Although it will be a big hardship on both, they are having the baby. I am very glad they chose not to kill my great grandson! With a little luck I will live long enough to see him.

[Junior1942]

BIGBIRD09. I think I posted this before but, In the Bible God told his prophet Jeremiah, I knew ye before I formed thee in the womb. Thats tells me that God is saying that life begins at conception. It can be found in the 1st chapter of Jeremiah, verses 4 and 5. Charlie. 

Sounds like He's saying, rather the man who actually wrote the words is saying, that life begins before conception.  Maybe that's what the Bible means when it warms against "wasting seed."  PM, maybe you need to start having funerals for used condoms and sanitary napkins as both contain "seed."

To TeamNelson: What you and PM need is a Constitutional Amendment outlawing abortions.  Guess what? It wouldn't pass. 

[powderman]

BEERBELLY. Life grows more precious as we age it seems.
junior. Your last post was totally ignorant, even for you. No need for a constitutional am, theres nothing in there giving a female the right to murder her children. Murder is against the law, it simply needs enforced. POWDERMAN. 

[ironglow]

BIGBIRD09. I think I posted this before but, In the Bible God told his prophet Jeremiah, I knew ye before I formed thee in the womb. Thats tells me that God is saying that life begins at conception. It can be found in the 1st chapter of Jeremiah, verses 4 and 5. Charlie. 

Sounds like He's saying, rather the man who actually wrote the words is saying, that life begins before conception.  Maybe that's what the Bible means when it warms against "wasting seed."  PM, maybe you need to start having funerals for used condoms and sanitary napkins as both contain "seed."

To TeamNelson: What you and PM need is a Constitutional Amendment outlawing abortions.  Guess what? It wouldn't pass.

        Junior, Junior, Junior...

             Bible scholar that you apparently believe you are, perhaps you can enlighten us as to where your quote "wasting seed" can be found..like, book-chapter & verse..   If you are considering  Genisis 38 then I mustnprewarn you that your exegesis is quite faulty, besides not having that quote.

    In the meantime, please enjoy this video of a "blastosphere" in action;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfgq7WiHbh4&feature=related

[Junior1942]

ironglow, when I was a kid a preacher used Genesis 38 or a similar passage to make us believe we'd go to hell for masturbating.  Today, that makes about as much sense as your and PM's claim that a fertilized egg is a living human being. 

[crustylicious]

Exodus: "And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. "But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot

Sounds like if you and the doc have a wresling match before the abortion there's no risk of going to hell as long as you pay a fine

[bigbird09]

[qoute]PM's claim that a fertilized egg is a living human being. [/quote]

Well if you wanna get technicle it is a living human being, just the early beginning stages.  The cell is alive and begins to multiple as soon as the egg and sperm  dna combined.

As far as the wasting seed, thing  being that the sperm itself can't really do a whole lot by itself its not really muder, but it does say somewhere in the bible about wasting seed,  I do remember that from my time in a christian school, but that was along time ago.

[ironglow]

ironglow, when I was a kid a preacher used Genesis 38 or a similar passage to make us believe we'd go to hell for masturbating.  Today, that makes about as much sense as your and PM's claim that a fertilized egg is a living human being.

  Well Junior;
  The preacher of your youth needs to do a bit more study...perhaps that is why you seem to be on the wrong side of every Christian issue..

     Between Junior & Crusty ..we have a wealth of Bible experts...both wrong and missing the major points ! ..

[m-g Willy]

   When and if they succeed in outlawing all abortions their next step is outlawing all birth control.

And with abortion we have- partial birth abortion-
And there is even talk from one of obama's czars of extending the legal murder of babies to 1-2 years old in the coming future.

[powderman]

And there is even talk from one of obama's czars of extending the legal murder of babies to 1-2 years old in the coming future.




Would not surprise me in the least. Don't want a kid? Kill it, been legal since 73. The obaminations czars were carefully chosen by him to further promote moral decay and to help in the destruction of America. POWDERMAN. 

[scootrd]

Powderman knows from another thread  a close Jewish family who are friends of mine are going through a very difficult time right now. The woman has just been diagnosed with a very aggressive cancer and is pregnant. The doctors have already determined treating the cancer will surely affect the unborn child, and the Jewish faith believes the life of the mother comes before the life of the unborn child.

I ask all who have responded thus far to weigh in with intelligent comments . Lets try a sensitive approach in replies , as this has been very difficult for the family and there is much sadness in the situation and the decisions that may need to make within the next few weeks.

What choices would Jewish families have if abortion became illegal?

[m-g Willy]

Powderman knows from another thread  a close Jewish family who are friends of mine are going through a very difficult time right now. The woman has just been diagnosed with a very aggressive cancer and is pregnant. The doctors have already determined treating the cancer will surely affect the unborn child, and the Jewish faith believes the life of the mother comes before the life of the unborn child.

I ask all who have responded thus far to weigh in with intelligent comments . Lets try a sensitive approach in replies , as this has been very difficult for the family and there is much sadness in the situation and the decisions that may need to make within the next few weeks.

What choices would Jewish families have if abortion became illegal?

That is an (either or) issue.
It has to be an awful  burden to make the choice of which life you are going to try to save.
I don't think anyone outside the family could really give an answer for what THEY  should do.

[scootrd]

Powderman knows from another thread  a close Jewish family who are friends of mine are going through a very difficult time right now. The woman has just been diagnosed with a very aggressive cancer and is pregnant. The doctors have already determined treating the cancer will surely affect the unborn child, and the Jewish faith believes the life of the mother comes before the life of the unborn child.

I ask all who have responded thus far to weigh in with intelligent comments . Lets try a sensitive approach in replies , as this has been very difficult for the family and there is much sadness in the situation and the decisions that may need to make within the next few weeks.

What choices would Jewish families have if abortion became illegal?

That is an (either or) issue.
It has to be an awful  burden to make the choice of which life you are going to try to save.
I don't think anyone outside the family could really give an answer for what THEY  should do.

My question is not what they should do that is a private matter , My question is the Jewish faith mandates the life of the mother over the life of the unborn child.

So if abortion was Illegal , How could they follow their faith (whether one agrees or disagrees is not the question) It is the laws of their religion. If we make abortion illegal , they could not follow their religious laws or beliefs.

My family prays for them. Their family is devastated.
The older I get the more grey;s I find. and Not every issue is so black and white.

[scootrd]

When this topic was thrust into our friends lives , I did some research  on the subject - 
here are a few different official religious stances on the issue of abortion:

Judaism
Traditional Jewish teachings sanction abortion as a means of safeguarding the life and well-being of a mother.

Episcopal
While the Episcopal Church recognizes a woman's right to terminate her pregnancy, the church condones abortion only in cases of rape or incest, cases in which a mother's physical or mental health is at risk or cases involving fetal abnormalities.

Evangelical Lutheran
The official position of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America states that "abortion prior to viability [of a fetus] should not be prohibited by law or by lack of public funding," but that abortion after the point of fetal viability should be prohibited except when the life of a mother is threatened or when fetal abnormalities pose a fatal threat to a newborn.

National Association of Evangelicals
In 1973, the National Association of Evangelicals reaffirmed its opposition to abortion, except in instances in which the procedure is deemed medically necessary to protect the life or health of a mother or in cases of rape or incest.

Presbyterian Church
In 2006, the Presbyterian Church's national governing body, the General Assembly, reaffirmed its belief that the termination of a pregnancy is a personal decision.

Southern Baptist
In a 1996 resolution on partial-birth abortion, the Southern Baptist Convention reaffirmed its opposition to abortion, stating that "all human life is a sacred gift from our sovereign God and therefore ... all abortions, except in those very rare cases where the life of the mother is clearly in danger, are wrong."

Unitarian
Beginning in 1963, the Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations passed a series of resolutions to support "the right to choose contraception and abortion as a legitimate expression of our constitutional rights."

United Church of Christ
The United Church of Christ is a firm advocate of reproductive rights, including the right to a safe abortion.

United Methodist
While the United Methodist Church opposes abortion, it affirms that it is “equally bound to respect the sacredness of the life and well-being of the mother and the unborn child.” The church sanctions “the legal option of abortion under proper medical procedures,”

Catholicism
In accordance with its widely publicized anti-abortion teachings, the Catholic Church opposes abortion in all circumstances and often leads the national debate on abortion.

Islam
Although there are different opinions among Islamic scholars about when life begins and when abortion is permissible, most agree that the termination of a pregnancy after four months - the point at which, in Islam, a fetus is thought to become a living soul - is not permissible. Many Islamic thinkers contend that in cases prior to four months of gestation, abortion should be permissible only in instances in which a mother's life is in danger or in cases of rape.

[teamnelson]

To TeamNelson: What you and PM need is a Constitutional Amendment outlawing abortions.  Guess what? It wouldn't pass.

Junior, you said PMan was immoral because he was not in the majority; ergo you must believe that morality is defined by the majority view. What I have asked is if you would be willing to put the issue of abortion to a majority vote so that we in fact can see if the morality of the people is in favor of abortion. If the majority view is pro-choice, then you would have nothing to fear from a popular election. Are you willing to test your theory?

I said nothing about a constitutional amendment; I am happy with it the way it is. I believe the 10th amendment is an applicable reference here (in addition to the 9th as used by the dissenting Justices in Roe v Wade): "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." Given that abortion is neither delegated to the federal government, nor prohibited to the States, it is left to the States respectively, or to the people to determine where they stand on this issue. It appears that you fear allowing the people the exercise of their 10th Amendment rights. It is difficult then for me to truly believe that anyone is interested in the rights of women, when they would deny them the right to vote on this issue; especially when you consider that there are more women than men of voting age. Instead they would leave it to the decision of 7 men to determine what is best for a woman; that's convenient empowerment by any standard.

[nw_hunter]

I have to roll my eyes when I hear the term......"A woman's right to chose". Or the term "We are pregnant"

What about the Man, and the Baby in the relationship? Under the current law, they have NO rights!

I don't believe in Abortion, (I believe it's murder) but hypothetically if a woman is given the right to abort if she so chooses, shouldn't a man also have the right to force her to abort if he doesn't want it? After all! that fetus as some would call it, is a part of him.Shouldn't he have some say so in the matter?
The only right he has, is to support the child after it's born. I guess some can have it both ways!

My wife and I became the proud G Grandparents of a 6# 9oz. Baby girl at 2:00 am this morning.
Both Mother and Baby are doing well. What a precious thing, life is, and the most precious of all is a child!

[ironglow]

Scootrd & Junior;
          Perhaps you have short memories or you are too young to know, but the dilemma of the life of the mother vs the life of the baby dilemma is no new thing.  What do you suppose was then procedure before Roe vs Wade made wholesale killing legal (not moral, but legal) ?
      Before this abortion of a law was passed the decision was made by the parents, with doctors advice (not sales pitch).  It was still a painful decision for those with a conscience, but no doctor was ever arrested for saving the mothers life, even  if it came to an early C-section or whatever was required.  Those with enough life experience and and perception will realize that there was no debate and noone protested such procedures, since it was indeed since truthfully saving a mother's life is indeed a private matter .
      I believe we should be honest her and admit that of the nearly 50 million babies killed...using the very small percentage of doubtful cases as a wedge is a desperate attempt to set up a "straw man".
     As far as the Jewish  couple you mentioned, not being Jewish I cannot counsel them spiritually, but whatever they decide to do, the ramifications would be the same before or after the 1973  Roe V Wade decision.  They face a religious decision rather than a legal one.

      Seems I recall seeing a similar  tough decision being explained by a woman and her son during last year's super bowl.   I believe that son is a current football player!

[SHOOTALL]

The base for most argument is that a woman should have a choice . I agree 100% . I disagree with it being abortion though. She should exersise her choice as to having a baby before the seed is planted ! IMHO un-wanted children come from lazy selfish parents.

[Junior1942]

Junior, you said PMan was immoral because he was not in the majority; ergo you must believe that morality is defined by the majority view. What I have asked is if you would be willing to put the issue of abortion to a majority vote so that we in fact can see if the morality of the people is in favor of abortion. If the majority view is pro-choice, then you would have nothing to fear from a popular election. Are you willing to test your theory?

Sure, have your election.  A couple of points: You seem to be saying you want to eliminate the Supreme Court because you don't like one of their decisions.  Didn't you vow to uphold the Constitution?  Also, how do you propose to pay for the sudden huge increase  in individual welfare if you eliminate abortions?  Maybe we could tax churches!

[SHOOTALL]

By pass the supream court ? It is their job to make sure laws are consitutional. If another law is written in a different way or a a law is passed by vote it would still could be taken before the court if someone could prove it effected them. The court can't be by passed if a law is challenged . And that is the deal. EXAMPLE The 18 inch limit on shotgun bbl length has not been challenged because the one case that was to be heard - the man run and the case never was heard. So if anyone wishes to challenge the law its still open. The court hears cases that people feel the law is unfair to them and is effecting them in a negative way.
 With abortion the court could have said that child birth was a natural human event and the child has rights and if the woman had not wished to be pregrant then she should have refrained from intercourse. Even the decision we have now can be over turned .