CNBC DOCUMENTARY, "REMINGTON UNDER FIRE"

[saddlebum]

Did anyone else see this on TV Sunday evening. I was pretty blown away by all the information they gave about the famous safety issue on the Rem. 700. They showed proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that Remington has known from the begining, (60yrs), that the 700 had an issue with the gun going bang without touching the trigger.
They even interviewed the man who designed the 700 and he admited there was a problem with it. He mentioned it to Remington in print in 1946. In '48 he made a formal recomendation, in print, to Remington that they change the safety connector setup in the trigger group. The cost of the fix at that time was 5.5 cents per gun. Remington refused.

They showed several demonstrations of the unintentional firing of different 700s, including a couple of military snipers. They have had literaly thousands of complaints in the last 60yrs. One guy won a 17 million dollar law suit for shooting his foot off. Many others were settled in secret according to the report. They interviewed ex-employees that said they were told to lie about the problem and try to cover it up.

Not long ago Remington started shipping rifles with a different trigger group. It is the same modification that the creator of the 700 had suggested back in '48. Only took them 60yrs to get around to it! AND, They still offer the faulty 700s too.

I have known about this issue for a long time. But the information about the cover-up and all the documentation they presented was a little shocking. Not to mention the interviews with the creator of the 700 and former employees.

CNBC's 10-month investigation stretched from Florida to Alaska, turning up thousands of complaints, two dozen deaths, more than 100 injuries and 75-plus lawsuits, all alleging the gun fired without the trigger being pulled.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/39554936/

[Sweet 6.5]

Remington 700?? Can't be. You sure it's not maybe the Zastava made ones??

[Old Grizz]

I saw the documentary about a year ago and in my opinion it's another corporate cover up. I can remember as far back as Viet Nam snipers complaining about misfires when taking off the safe. We just passed it off blaming on the dirty and dusty conditions of Nam.

[BRL]

I'm sure a percentage of it is accurate. But, no-one wants to admit it was their fault when a gun goes off accidentally...especially if an injury or death is involved. However, I'm also sure the media made it out to be worse than it really is. After all, they ran the story (and keep running the story again and again) for ratings and to create a stir among non-shooters for political reasons and possibly create doubt in the minds of shooters. I know this might seem harsh and it's difficult to get one's thoughts across in a forum post sometimes. I've had dealings with the media in the past and have had other business associates in the same position. In my past experiences, the one holding the microphone really does not care one bit about the person on the other side of the microphone. They are daydreaming as to how their rating is going to skyrocket after this airs. I know that's not all of them but certainly more than there should be.

Does anyone have any information as to how many 700's have been made and sold since its inception? I'd like to possibly find out what percentage of "accidental" discharge and lawsuits versus the number of 700's made...the most popular rifle. Not that this fixes anything but it puts into perspective this situation vs all other gun companies that have been sued for fault. Although, Remington...being the largest and most well known gun maker in the US...brings a little more meaning.
 

[helotaxi]

All I'll say is consider the source and understand that lawyers trying to sue Remington were the only source of "facts" for the story.

[saddlebum]

All I'll say is consider the source and understand that lawyers trying to sue Remington were the only source of "facts" for the story.

Mike Walker, who designed and built the 700, is the first one to admit that the safety connector in the trigger group is faulty and to blame for the inadvertent firing of the guns. Starting as far back as 1946. The official documents from Walker and Remington. The retired employee from Remington who was ordered to lie about the problem.......... I am considering the source.

While very true that injuries and deaths caused by the malfunction is largely due to "operator error", in that the gun must have been pointed at someone, still the gun should not have fired by itself. The majority of complaints are not law suits or injury accidents. Just people contacting Remington to complain about it.

As far as the percentage of 700s that go bang when they are not supposed to, what percentage do you consider acceptable?
Someone has come up with a percentage number and they gave it on the report. I'm not positive of the number so I will not try to repeat it here. The number was a low percentage number but considering the large number of rifles on the market, the number of unsafe rifles out there is still in the thousands.

If Remington had fixed the problem back in 1948 at Mike Walker's, (documented), recomendation, it would not have hurt the company much to do it. But now that there are millions of 700s out there, it would more than bankrupt the company. And the question of why Remington took Walker's recomendation and is producing rifles only recently with the problem fixed, is suspect to say the least.

[30-30man]

I don't know why any of what was reported surprised anybody. It was all well documented.  Even the designer said it had problems...That nailed the coffin shut in my opinion.  Remington has been rushing products to the market before the bugs were worked out and leaving the customer high and dry for years.  I have owned many Remingtons and all but one had a problem....I was done a long time ago them.

[saddlebum]

I found the numbers they used in the report. They say over 5 million 700s have been sold. After doing some calculating, somehow they came up with 1% as the number they thought were defective enough to fire by themselves. That comes out to 50,000.

No way to tell how many complaints Remington recieved since they buried as many as they could. The reporters showed evidence of complaints in the thousands.

There was a quality control issue with the manufacturing process of the triggers, according to Mike Walker, that contributed to the problem. While he worked there he got Remington to fix that in the assembly of the trigger. Walker told reporters that when he left Remington, they stopped that extra quality control process in making the triggers.

BTW, Walker was 98yrs old whenever that interview took place. He was still making guns and tinkering in his little retirement home.

This is a better link than the first one I posted.   
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/manufacturing/2010-10-20-remington-700-trigger-cnbc_N.htm

[mattl]

Didn't we kill this issue in the Remington fourm?  I have seen 700's that fire without the trigger being pulled.  They all (100%) had their triggers adjusted by someone other than the Factory.  Show me a "NEW" Remington 700 that has a faulty trigger, then I will believe this.  The only flaw that I can see in the trigger is the ease of adjustment by anyone.

[Harry Snippe]

Didn't we kill this issue in the Remington form?  I have seen 700's that fire without the trigger being pulled.  They all (100%) had their triggers adjusted by someone other than the Factory.  Show me a "NEW" Remington 700 that has a faulty trigger, then I will believe this.  The only flaw that I can see in the trigger is the ease of adjustment by anyone.

I don't see where every one needs to get fired up and make a statement that 100 % of the rifles that had a AD had their triggers  adjusted or tampered with . It is far from FACT SIR!!!
I has such a rifle . It was a 660 model in 308 , which was quietly repaired at no cost to me when returned to a Remington dealer at the time .
And like wise there are people that came forward and SAID they too had guns that had a AD before the guns were touched . Not ever guy need to be an "idiot" and take the darn thing apart when they come home . Some of us just load and learn to shoot them out of the box.

Now this subject has been gone over til the cows come home so lets let it die .
Good Bye

[mattl]

Didn't we kill this issue in the Remington form?  I have seen 700's that fire without the trigger being pulled.  They all (100%) had their triggers adjusted by someone other than the Factory.  Show me a "NEW" Remington 700 that has a faulty trigger, then I will believe this.  The only flaw that I can see in the trigger is the ease of adjustment by anyone.

I don't see where every one needs to get fired up and make a statement that 100 % of the rifles that had a AD had their triggers  adjusted or tampered with . It is far from FACT SIR!!!
I has such a rifle . It was a 660 model in 308 , which was quietly repaired at no cost to me when returned to a Remington dealer at the time .
And like wise there are people that came forward and SAID they too had guns that had a AD before the guns were touched . Not ever guy need to be an "idiot" and take the darn thing apart when they come home . Some of us just load and learn to shoot them out of the box.

Now this subject has been gone over til the cows come home so lets let it die .
Good Bye

Sorry, it was poorly written, but what I ment was all the 700 Remingtons that "I" have seen AD had their triggers adjusted by someone that didn't quite know how to.  I have never seen any rifle in unalterd condition AD.  That's why I would have to see an unaltered, taken care of rifle AD to believe that the trigger is faulty.  CNBC Documentary makes it sound like AD happen all the time.  I have shot thousands of rounds through remington 700's and never had any problems, maybe I'm lucky, who knows.

[Coyote Hunter]

Sorry, it was poorly written, but what I ment was all the 700 Remingtons that "I" have seen AD had their triggers adjusted by someone that didn't quite know how to.  I have never seen any rifle in unalterd condition AD.  That's why I would have to see an unaltered, taken care of rifle AD to believe that the trigger is faulty.  CNBC Documentary makes it sound like AD happen all the time.  I have shot thousands of rounds through remington 700's and never had any problems, maybe I'm lucky, who knows.

Go back and read the documents.  Remington was finding rifles coming off the assembly line that had problems and I think it was the 600's that had over a 50% susceptibility rate. 

[Harry Snippe]

Didn't we kill this issue in the Remington form?  I have seen 700's that fire without the trigger being pulled.  They all (100%) had their triggers adjusted by someone other than the Factory.  Show me a "NEW" Remington 700 that has a faulty trigger, then I will believe this.  The only flaw that I can see in the trigger is the ease of adjustment by anyone.

I don't see where every one needs to get fired up and make a statement that 100 % of the rifles that had a AD had their triggers  adjusted or tampered with . It is far from FACT SIR!!!
I has such a rifle . It was a 660 model in 308 , which was quietly repaired at no cost to me when returned to a Remington dealer at the time .
And like wise there are people that came forward and SAID they too had guns that had a AD before the guns were touched . Not ever guy need to be an "idiot" and take the darn thing apart when they come home . Some of us just load and learn to shoot them out of the box.

Now this subject has been gone over til the cows come home so lets let it die .
Good Bye

Sorry, it was poorly written, but what I ment was all the 700 Remingtons that "I" have seen AD had their triggers adjusted by someone that didn't quite know how to.  I have never seen any rifle in unalterd condition AD.  That's why I would have to see an unaltered, taken care of rifle AD to believe that the trigger is faulty.  CNBC Documentary makes it sound like AD happen all the time.  I have shot thousands of rounds through remington 700's and never had any problems, maybe I'm lucky, who knows.

I do agree that a lot of people tinker with things they do not have a clue when they start.Then with any gun the chance the gun will some time fire when it is not intended is good .
So yes Remington does fine guns that were altered have an AD.
Then there are the people like myself , not knowing and with out the net as we know today , just send the gun back to remington as I did , and it quietly was repaired .The new trigger never had  a problem and yes a year later- I did have it altered by a qualifed smith.
There is a persentage that do at some time fault although many which well may be the highter persent never have a problem .
To say that your gunns never did it so you want to see one that does, is like saying to your Mom I did not see I was bornso Maybe I wasn't .
This subject was on Gaybeards back in Dec. If I am not mistaken there were a few guys that said - Yeah!! my gun had a AD as there was also people that came forward on Beartooth forum . Think if you r not the first owner you could phone remington with the serial # and ask if it is involved in the recall.Yes you will probably pay shipping ,but some day some one might touch your gun--
The 600,650 some of the 700 and others are affected . Remington does have a list .

[Coyote Hunter]

... Think if you r not the first owner you could phone remington with the serial # and ask if it is involved in the recall.Yes you will probably pay shipping ,but some day some one might touch your gun--
The 600,650 some of the 700 and others are affected . Remington does have a list .

\
When I bought a used 1975 Rem M700 BDL in 2005 I was able to take it to a certified Remington repair center (Gander Mountain) and they either sent it to their repair center in Wiscobnsin or sompalce thereabouts or back to Remington for repairs.  I did not have to pay any shipping in either direction.

Don't know if mythat M700 had a FOR problem or not and don't really care - if it did it doesn't now, and that I do care about.