Author Topic: Defensive ammo, is hp a must?  (Read 1084 times)

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Offline Basicguy

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Defensive ammo, is hp a must?
« on: January 27, 2011, 06:09:07 AM »
Whenever I have read about defensive ammo the consensus is that it must be hollow point. I have seen discussions extolling the virtues of the near magic HP bullets. Some times there are pictures comparing the fangs on the opened bullets.

I have been reloading for 5 years. Mostly for hand guns in standard calibers. I live in a rural area and target shoot out of my back door several days a week. Many times it is just to shoot a cylinder or magazine worth of ammo. I shoot varmints that come into my domain, protecting my pets and potentially my neighbors chicken and sheep. I do worry that methheads might invade. They are in the area.

As often as I shoot. I don't want to keep my handguns loaded with dollar a round (or even 25 cent a round) ammo. Mostly I shoot 40, 45, 44 or 357. I figure any lead bullet launched should defend me.  I understand that penetration could be more than I need but a hole clear through should give any target more ports to bleed out of. If the round goes through the next couple of walls afterward or goes sailing another 200-300 yards it won't hit anything that is significant. 

I don't generally load my guns to more than it takes them to be 100% reliable but usually shoot calibers that don't need max to be what I consider effective at short range. To give the old automobile analogy. Driving a big pushrod V8 rather than a small 4 cylinder (which can be powerful if you rev it a lot).

I am not in cities very often. They scare me.





Offline wncchester

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Re: Defensive ammo, is hp a must?
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2011, 07:30:32 AM »
There is no "must" to much of anything.  Especially so for hollow points, flat points are frequently just as effective.
Common sense is an uncommon virtue

Offline stimpylu32

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Re: Defensive ammo, is hp a must?
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2011, 08:12:05 AM »
For most of my 38 cal rounds like the 38 spl & 357 mag I use a JHP , for the others I like a wide / flat nosed cast bullet , they punch a large enough hole that expantion is not a real issue to cause a large wound channel , also in the winter were the rounds may need to go through a few layers , the heavy cast does a better job of hitting something besides material .  ;)

stimpy
Deceased June 17, 2015


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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Defensive ammo, is hp a must?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2011, 08:42:45 AM »
Years ago I would have said yes.
But thinking about it.
Most handgun hunters all talk about a large flat all lead bullet for the toughest of animals.
the 1911 and the 45 ACP built a reputation on the 230 grain hard ball ammo.
If you look at the books Street Spoppers and the results of the Strausburg test.
Hollow points win, but shot placement is key to all of it.

Offline Catfish

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Re: Defensive ammo, is hp a must?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2011, 10:47:41 AM »
I do not carry hand loads in in my CCW gun. I carry a 329 PD and with the 44 mah I worry about over penatration so I have the first 2 chambers loaded with prefraged bullets followed by HP`s if the first 2 don`t stop him.

Offline GH1

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Re: Defensive ammo, is hp a must?
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2011, 01:31:53 PM »
Part of the reason for hollowpoints, in addition to a larger wound channel, is they reduce the chances of over penetration and to a lesser degree, ricochet. So for me, it's HP's when I carry and cast when I practice. Unless I'm in the woods then it's cast all the way. Like you, I don't want to waste my high dollar factory HP's.
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Offline shot1

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Re: Defensive ammo, is hp a must?
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2011, 01:48:17 PM »
I carry ammo loaded mostly with Hornady XTP HP or Speer Gold Dot HP for self defense for the reason they open up really well and to limit high velocity exit wounds. I am responsible for the bullet even after it would leave a bad guy. I practice with cast of FMJ. When hunting with my Ruger 45 Colt for deer i is usually loaded with 250 Hornady XTP HP but when in bear areas it is stoked with hard cast 250 SWC and a healthy dose of H110.

Offline Hit or Miss

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Re: Defensive ammo, is hp a must?
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2011, 05:10:51 PM »
I carry factory loaded hollow points for self defense and practice with cast for the most part.

One thing you must be willing to do is defend your choice of load to a jury if you should ever have to defend yourself in court.  Ballistic labs are going to have a hard time duplicating your pet load  and your lawyer is going to have a hard time proving that was truly what was in that cartridge.   It's all a bunch of "what if's" but why take a chance?
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Offline helotaxi

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Re: Defensive ammo, is hp a must?
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2011, 01:03:38 AM »
One thing you must be willing to do is defend your choice of load to a jury if you should ever have to defend yourself in court.  Ballistic labs are going to have a hard time duplicating your pet load  and your lawyer is going to have a hard time proving that was truly what was in that cartridge.   It's all a bunch of "what if's" but why take a chance?
There has yet to be a case where load choice (factory or reload) or even caliber of defensive weapon has been an issue with regard to a defensive shooting.  The only question is "was lethal force justified?"  If the answer is "yes" then that is that, doesn't matter if the gun was a 12ga with 3 1/2" magnum shells or a .22 short derringer.  If the answer is "no" then you're royally screwed regardless.

If the ballistics lab has trouble duplicating a load, their "expert" status should be seriously called into question.

Offline Gohon

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Re: Defensive ammo, is hp a must?
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2011, 02:42:26 AM »
One thing you must be willing to do is defend your choice of load to a jury if you should ever have to defend yourself in court.  Ballistic labs are going to have a hard time duplicating your pet load  and your lawyer is going to have a hard time proving that was truly what was in that cartridge.   It's all a bunch of "what if's" but why take a chance?
There has yet to be a case where load choice (factory or reload) or even caliber of defensive weapon has been an issue with regard to a defensive shooting.  The only question is "was lethal force justified?"  If the answer is "yes" then that is that, doesn't matter if the gun was a 12ga with 3 1/2" magnum shells or a .22 short derringer.  If the answer is "no" then you're royally screwed regardless.

If the ballistics lab has trouble duplicating a load, their "expert" status should be seriously called into question.

I agree.............this myth seems to never die.  I have yet to have anyone show me in print where hand loads became a issue in a self defense case or was ever even mentioned in a case for that matter. 

Offline shot1

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Re: Defensive ammo, is hp a must?
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2011, 03:41:33 AM »
If you are defending yourself from "serious body harm or the threat of death" it does not matter what you use to "stop the threat". It can be a ball bat a brick or even a 155 cannon.  If it is a righteous shooting you are in the clear.

I think too many people watch these CSI TV programs and think that it is reality.

Offline mdi

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Re: Defensive ammo, is hp a must?
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2011, 07:59:51 AM »
My home defence arms all start with a "4", and therefore I don't need hollow points, IMO. 230 grain 45 ACP has ended many fights (Ruger P90 under my bed and my 1911 in my shed) and my .44s, Special and Magnum would have no problems removing an intruder from my presence, all using flat or round point ammo. My pocket .38 spits out flat points of about 160 grains that go where I want them and I'm confident they will do the job they are intended for...

Offline DannoBoone

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Re: Defensive ammo, is hp a must?
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2011, 11:13:47 AM »
If a person lives in a rural enough area to practice, and does it quite frequently, that alone
is a good deterrent to local "hoods". Those having any sense at all, don't care to invade
one's domain whom they know can very effectively protect themselves.

I believe there was a thread a few years ago over at 24hrcampfire about a study in which
it was proven that hollow points were less effective than solids when they had to go through
several layers of winter clothing.

I'd say the best thing to do either way would be to keep firing until the creep(s) ran out or
dropped.
We need to change our politicians
like we do dirty diapers.............
for the same reason.

Offline Hit or Miss

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Re: Defensive ammo, is hp a must?
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2011, 03:11:28 PM »
Google "handloads for self defense ayoob", I found 4 examples with documentation where handloads caused big problems for a gun owner.

This one is not a self defense shooting but does show the trouble one can get into quite clearly.  I'm not trying to be a smart aleck either, just want to get good information out there.

NJ V. Bias

This is the classic case of gunshot residue (GSR) evidence being complicated by the use of handloaded ammunition, resulting in a case being misinterpreted in a tragic and unjust way. On the night of 2/26/89, Danny Bias entered the master bedroom of his home to find his wife Lise holding the family home defense revolver, a 6” S&W 686, to her head. He told police that knowing that she had a history of suicidal ideation, he attempted to grab the gun, which discharged, killing her. The gun was loaded with four handloaded lead SWC cartridges headstamped Federal .38 Special +P.

Autopsy showed no GSR. The medical examiner determined that Lise Bias had a reach of 30”, and the NJSP Crime Lab in Trenton determined that the gun in question would deposit GSR to a distance of 50” or more with either factory Federal 158 grain SWC +P .38 Special, or handloads taken from his home under warrant for testing after Danny told them about the reloads. However, the reloads that were taken and tested had Remington-Peters headstamps on the casings and were obviously not from the same batch.

Danny had loaded 50 rounds into the Federal cases of 2.3, 2.6, and 2.9 grains of Bullseye, with Winchester primers, under an unusually light 115 grain SWC that he had cast himself, seeking a very light load that his recoil sensitive wife could handle. The gun had been loaded at random from that box of 50 and there was no way of knowing which of the three recipes was in the chamber from which the fatal bullet was launched.

We duplicated that load, and determined that with all of them and particularly the 2.3 grain load, GSR distribution was so light that it could not be reliably gathered or recovered, from distances as short as 24”. Unfortunately, the remaining rounds in the gun could not be disassembled for testing as they were the property of the court, and there is no forensic artifact that can determine the exact powder charge that was fired from a given spent cartridge.

According to an attorney who represented him later, police originally believed the death to be a suicide. However, the forensic evidence testing indicated that was not possible, and it was listed as suspicious death. Based largely on the GSR evidence, as they perceived it, the Warren County prosecutor’s office presented the case to the grand jury, which indicted Danny Bias for Murder in the First Degree in the death of his wife.

Attorney John Lanza represented Danny very effectively at his first trial, which ended in a hung jury. Legal fees exceeded $100,000, bankrupting Danny; Attorney Lanza, who believed then and now in his client’s innocence, swallowed some $90,000 worth of legal work for which he was never paid.

For his second trial, Bias was assigned attorney Elisabeth Smith by the Public Defender’s office. Challenging the quality of evidence collection, she was able to weaken the prosecution’s allegation that the GSR factor equaled murder, but because the GSR issue was so muddled by the handloaded ammo factor, she could not present concrete evidence that the circumstances were consistent with suicide, and the second trial ended with a hung jury in 1992. At this point, the prosecution having twice failed to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt, the judge threw out the murder charge.

It was after this that I personally lost track of the case. However, I’ve learned this past week that the case of NJ v. Daniel Bias was tried a third time in the mid-1990s, resulting in his being acquitted of Aggravated Manslaughter but convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. The appellate division of the Public Defender’s office handled his post-conviction relief and won him a fourth trial. The fourth trial, more than a decade after the shooting, ended with Danny Bias again convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. By now, the state had changed its theory and was suggesting that Danny had pointed the gun at her head to frighten her, thinking one of the two empty chambers would come up under the firing pin, but instead discharging the gun. Danny Bias was sentenced to six years in the penitentiary, and served three before being paroled. He remains a convicted felon who cannot own a firearm.

It is interesting to hear the advice of the attorneys who actually tried this case. John Lanza wrote, “When a hand load is used in an incident which becomes the subject of a civil or criminal trial, the duplication of that hand load poses a significant problem for both the plaintiff or the prosecutor and the defendant. Once used, there is no way, with certainty, to determine the amount of powder or propellant used for that load. This becomes significant when forensic testing is used in an effort to duplicate the shot and the resulting evidence on the victim or target.”

He adds, “With the commercial load, one would be in a better position to argue the uniformity between the loads used for testing and the subject load. With a hand load, you have no such uniformity. Also, the prosecution may utilize either standard loads or a different hand load in its testing. The result would be distorted and could be prejudicial to the defendant. Whether or not the judge would allow such a scientific test to be used at trial, is another issue, which, if allowed, would be devastating for the defense. From a strictly forensic standpoint, I would not recommend the use of hand loads because of the inherent lack of uniformity and the risk of unreliable test results. Once the jury hears the proof of an otherwise unreliable test, it can be very difficult to ‘unring the bell.’”

Ms. Smith had this to say, after defending Danny Bias through his last three trials. I asked her, “Is it safe to say that factory ammunition, with consistently replicable gunshot residue characteristics, (would) have proven that the gun was within reach of Lise’s head in her own hand, and kept the case from escalating as it did?”

She replied, “You’re certainly right about that. Gunshot residue was absolutely the focus of the first trial. The prosecution kept going back to the statement, “It couldn’t have happened the way he said it did’.”

The records on the Bias trials should be available through:
The Superior Court of New Jersey
Warren County
313 Second Street
PO Box 900
Belvedere, NJ 07823

Those who wish to follow the appellate track of this case will find it in the Atlantic Reporter.

142 N.J. 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)

Supreme Court of New Jersey
State
v.
Daniel N. Bias
NOS. C-188 SEPT.TERM 1995, 40,813
Oct 03, 1995
Disposition: Cross-pet. Denied.
N.J. 1995.
State v. Bias
142 N>J> 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)
Which lie got to you so that you refuse Him???

Offline EMC45

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Re: Defensive ammo, is hp a must?
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2011, 04:20:34 AM »
I have to disagree about uniformity in factory cases. I have pulled bullets and weighed charges/bullets and had some shocking results in regard to what the difference was from round to round. I load very uniform ammo and am confident that I can replicate round after round the same results ie; FPS and accuracy standards. I do carry handloaded ammo for SD. I have also read the articles about not doing so (strangely they are all by Masaad Ayoob). I have also seen his writings on various internet forums discussing this very topic. You can be civilly sued for taking someones life regardless of what ammo you use. Period. You kill someone in SD and the family can sue. Even if it is justifiable, even in a state with Castle Doctrine. That is why I don't worry about what is in my carry gun. Worst case scenario I will end up in court anyway. Hate to say it like that, but in this litigious society people will sue you for anything! Funny thing about the above-mentioned case is I grew up in Warren County and don't remember anything about this in the news. The guy was from Phillipsburg NJ (where I graduated HS) and it happened around the time I was in high school up that way. The courthouse is in Belvidere not Belvedere. Also went to HS there too.

Offline Dee

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Re: Defensive ammo, is hp a must?
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2011, 04:50:48 AM »
There is no "must" to much of anything.  Especially so for hollow points, flat points are frequently just as effective.

I would agree with this entirely. Hollow points are TOTALLY RELIANT ON HYDROLICS. If a recipient is wearing certain types of clothing, or is wearing layered clothing, the hollow point which acts much like a cookie cutter, with fill with these materials, and MAY NOT EXAPAND AT ALL. This is precisely why the 9mm has been such a poor performer in L.E.
In autos I carried flat points for this very reason. Even Col. Cooper was quite aware of this, and wrote about it.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Defensive ammo, is hp a must?
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2011, 10:46:41 AM »

 Even Col. Cooper was quite aware of this, and wrote about it.
[/quote]
Are you saying that even someone as Myopic as Col. Cooper could see the benefits of something other than what he professed?  Or was this during his period of then he praised everything then later moaned aboout everything that was not 22, 30-06, 375 H&H or 45 ACP?   ::)
I am not disagreeing with you. 

Offline Dee

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Re: Defensive ammo, is hp a must?
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2011, 11:03:16 AM »
Col Cooper was a walking contradiction. I put him right up there with O'Connor and the rest of the gun rag pioneers. O'Connor was lucky he didn't blow himself up with some of his shenanigans. But to address the issue at hand. Find your self a bowling pin and sit it on a flat surface. INTENTIONALLY shoot the pin on the side with a normal hollow point or ball and watch what happens. It will glance off, and most likely knock the pin over. Then make the same shot with a flat point and see what happens. It will bite into the pin, and spin it down. A flat point does the same thing to human bone. Rather than glance off the bone, it will bite in and break the bone. A more desirable trait in a fight, don't ya think?
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline charles p

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Re: Defensive ammo, is hp a must?
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2011, 12:42:00 PM »
When I was a kid, and hunted squirrel before and after school, a .22 rimfire HP would ruin meat and a round nose bullet was less destructive.  For deer hunting, I use pointed bullets in many calibers but I have also loaded BTHP bullets.  I can not tell the difference on deer. 

I've been told that the old wad cutter bullet in .38 cal makes a very good defensive round. 

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Defensive ammo, is hp a must?
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2011, 12:59:04 PM »
When I was a kid, and hunted squirrel before and after school, a .22 rimfire HP would ruin meat and a round nose bullet was less destructive.  For deer hunting, I use pointed bullets in many calibers but I have also loaded BTHP bullets.  I can not tell the difference on deer. 

I've been told that the old wad cutter bullet in .38 cal makes a very good defensive round.
Most Boat trailed Hollow points are to get the weight of the bullet to the back or make a longer bullet for the weight.
the jacket is thick and the hole small.  They act like FMJ bullets for the most part.

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Defensive ammo, is hp a must?
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2011, 12:59:41 PM »
Col Cooper was a walking contradiction. I put him right up there with O'Connor and the rest of the gun rag pioneers. O'Connor was lucky he didn't blow himself up with some of his shenanigans. But to address the issue at hand. Find your self a bowling pin and sit it on a flat surface. INTENTIONALLY shoot the pin on the side with a normal hollow point or ball and watch what happens. It will glance off, and most likely knock the pin over. Then make the same shot with a flat point and see what happens. It will bite into the pin, and spin it down. A flat point does the same thing to human bone. Rather than glance off the bone, it will bite in and break the bone. A more desirable trait in a fight, don't ya think?
Yes sir.