Author Topic: Barrells don't Fit??? (Read 2063 times)

Lawful Larry · « **on:** January 27, 2011, 09:17:12 AM »

A friend has and older Contender(serial #73**). I think the manufacture date is in 1969 time frame. Not sure, but should be very close. Well anyway I am thinking of buying it from him and brought it home. When I tried to put my newer barrels from my G2 on the frame, they wouldn't fit. I thought they were all supposed to fit? The sale price would be very nice.

Question, "Can the frame be sent back to the company and have an upgrade to accept the newer barrels?"

DEACONLLB · « **Reply #1 on:** January 27, 2011, 11:34:48 AM »

Larry when you say wont fit where is the place where they dont fit, I switch barrel back and forth all the time but my oldest frame is a 71 and a barrel from a G2 works just fine.Give us a little more info. The frame would not be plated to look like stainless if that is the case the barrel pin is a different size.

Deaconllb

Keith L · « **Reply #2 on:** January 27, 2011, 12:53:41 PM »

The only fit problems I know about were the Armor Alloy frames and barrels, and they could easily be modified to fit. Sometimes the locking bolts need to be polished to work also, but the barrels fit and close but the hammer will not cock.

Lawful Larry · « **Reply #3 on:** January 28, 2011, 02:19:32 AM »

Quote from: DEACONLLB on January 27, 2011, 11:34:48 AM

Larry when you say wont fit where is the place where they dont fit, I switch barrel back and forth all the time but my oldest frame is a 71 and a barrel from a G2 works just fine.Give us a little more info. The frame would not be plated to look like stainless if that is the case the barrel pin is a different size.

Deaconllb

It looks like the problem is with the locking lug. It appears that the newer barrels have a larger lug then the older barrels that came with the frame. When I try to close the action, it will not close, but will stop halfway. After looking at both locking lugs, old and new barrels, the older barrel lugs appear to be smaller compare to the newer ones. The newer ones look to be much more thicker. I hope that explains it a little better. Thanks.

Bullseye · « **Reply #4 on:** January 28, 2011, 03:21:45 AM »

Interesting. I have a G2 that my 8 older barrels will not work on, but I have had numerous barrels and 5 old frames and never had a problem. If I understand this right, your G2 barrels will not fit an old frame and I have never had this problem.

Hopalong7 · « **Reply #5 on:** January 28, 2011, 06:22:27 AM »

Larry, It is fairly simple to remove the lock bolt completely from the lug. Then try the barrel for fit without the bolt. If it will close then the bolt is the problem. In all the barrels I've tried, none have not fit any frame tried without the bolt in place. I will usually take a bolt from a barrel that works well with that frame and insert it into that barrel and try, just to be sure.

Walt

Lawful Larry · « **Reply #6 on:** January 28, 2011, 06:51:11 AM »

I am going to give TC a call and see if I can get an answer from a tech. Hopefully he will have something for me.

Thanks guys, will let all know what I get.

Ladobe · « **Reply #7 on:** January 29, 2011, 06:48:15 AM »

You can call TC and try to get a tech to talk to you... just remember they are in the process of shutting down the plant to move it, and may have already laid a bunch of employees off. So you may not be able to get a tech on the phone.

Besides, I think you already have the answer, and a very good suggestion from Walt on how to confirm it. Since TC went to just "one size fits" all with the split bolts that don't take into account for wear on older frames (from the 6 sizes of them they used to make), it has been normal to need to stone them to fit frames for the best lock up. Not that hard to do, and the easiest if you are just dealing with one frame a particular barrel will always be shot on.

Lawful Larry · « **Reply #8 on:** January 30, 2011, 05:18:07 AM »

Okay, I called and talked to a nice lady and told her my problem. She was familiar with it and said they can fix it. They call it the easy open conversion and I have to send the frame and the two barrels to them. They will convert the frame and replace the lug bolts to the new ones. I have to send a check for about $55.95 and that willcover the work and shipping back to me.

I am glad I can get this done. I really liked the old frame and now I will be able to switch all my barrels when I get it done. Thanks for the help guys and I will keep you all posted on how it goes.

Ladobe · « **Reply #9 on:** January 30, 2011, 08:18:34 AM »

The conversion is a good one on pre 1981 frames because it does make the action considerably easier to open. They change the pivot point of the trigger guard from up near the front of it to right above the trigger itself. Means drilling new holes for the new pivot pin and maybe replacing the trigger guard. I never had any of my pre 1981 frames converted, instead just upgraded them all by buying post 1981 easy open frames. So I can't remember what others have said they do about the old pivot point - ie, if they can leave the old pivot pin in place, fill the holes or just leave them open and out of sight when a forend is installed. Regardless, that is not your problem with the barrels right now (non easy open vs easy open frame). The older barrels had solid bolts (the correct terminology, not locking bolts/lugs) and a flat base before the T5 barrels with a stepped base (both octagon and bull), and before split barrel bolts came along. It was fairly common for barrels with solid bolts needing to be changed to split bolts to work well on the newer frames, and TC always gave away the parts to do it yourself. A very easy fix that anybody can do. There are a heck of a lot of old frames out there in use that have not been converted to easy open and yet use new barrels just fine, some barrels maybe needing a little stoning of the bolts. As I said before, it was easier back when the bolts came in sizes rather than the one size they went to some time before the Contender frame was discontinued 1999/2000. I didn't own any of the pre 1981 frames by the time the G2 came along, but I do own a couple of G2 era factory barrels, and they worked fine on my easy open vintage frames with no stoning.

So unless you do want to get the easy open conversion, IMO you can still get those barrels to work on the pre 1981 frame by simply doing some fitting of the barrels bolts to the frame.

Just a little more info to help you decide, so hope it helps...

L.

BCB · « **Reply #10 on:** January 30, 2011, 12:16:17 PM »

I have a couple of barrels that will not fit on all of the frames I have. My frames are not G2, but they are the easy open ones. They still have the trigger adjustments…

I recently purchased a 22lr Match barrel and it will only function on 1 receiver. I have tried it on others and I can't get it to open. Then the trigger assembly has to be removed and a screwdriver inserted into the guts (lack of terminology!) and twisted to get the barrel free of the receiver. A very annoying and discouraging task. ESPECIALLY WHEN T/C SAYS THEY WILL FIT ALL FRAMES—GOT THE BOX FOR THE BARREL RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME NOW!!!

I have heard about stoning the bolt a bit, bit it is always warned, “Not too much.” Well, what is too much? A ten thousandth of an inch, a 1/16 of an inch, a half inch?...

The last new vehicle I purchased, I didn't have to stone the doors or gear selector to get it to function. It was to do so and it did…

T/C has let a lot of people down with this barrel fit issue. It is discussed on every website concerning handguns etc. Yet there are some who never have had a bit of trouble…

Guess some people are lucky and some ain’t…

I am glad I have all of the Contender barrels and frames that I am likely to purchase as I think it gets more complicated as the newer stuff arrives…

Good-luck with the barrel fitting—T/C will gladly take your money to fix it—what if you had 10 barrel, would they all be sent back too? What about 4 or 5 frames—sent back also?...

BCB

Keith L · « **Reply #11 on:** January 30, 2011, 01:38:26 PM »

TC will fit your barrels to your frames free of charge. It is also very simple to stone the bolts to get them to fit. If that is a problem for you perhaps you are not going to be happy with Contenders.

Lawful Larry · « **Reply #12 on:** January 31, 2011, 04:49:27 AM »

Quote from: Ladobe on January 30, 2011, 08:18:34 AM

The older barrels had solid bolts (the correct terminology, not locking bolts/lugs) and a flat base before the T5 barrels with a stepped base (both octagon and bull), and before split barrel bolts came along. It was fairly common for barrels with solid bolts needing to be changed to split bolts to work well on the newer frames, and TC always gave away the parts to do it yourself. A very easy fix that anybody can do. There are a heck of a lot of old frames out there in use that have not been converted to easy open and yet use new barrels just fine, some barrels maybe needing a little stoning of the bolts. L.

Can you tell me more about these stepped bolts on octogonal barrels. The two barrels that came with this old frame are octogonal barrels. And yes they do have a stepped bolt on both. Where as my new G2 barrels are squared and not stepped.

??

BCB · « **Reply #13 on:** January 31, 2011, 07:21:44 AM »

Quote from: Keith L on January 30, 2011, 01:38:26 PM

TC will fit your barrels to your frames free of charge. It is also very simple to stone the bolts to get them to fit. If that is a problem for you perhaps you are not going to be happy with Contenders.

It’s free if they pay the shipping both ways and can guarantee return in a very reasonable time and they don't alter any of the great trigger work that I have paid for...

I still have not been given an amount to remove. And there is the problem. I have tried that and when I close the barrel to the frame—it won’t open. SO, it is remove the trigger assembly and get a screwdriver in there and twist whatever it is called and work the barrel until it releases. It is quit difficult and there is always a very good chance of dropping everything…

It is a problem with me as there is not where on any of the boxes that contain the new barrels that indicate such “backyard” gunsmithing is necessary…

By the way, I do enjoy my Contenders, with the exception of the one barrel that will only hookup to one frame. All of my other ones (mostly—there are some problems at times) will perform as advertised…

No more new stuff is basically my point…

BCB

Curtis · « **Reply #14 on:** January 31, 2011, 10:30:58 AM »

BCB I basically know what you're saying and for that reason I stick with mainly older frames. I have not had any problem yet, except for the time I put a solid bolt (thanks Ladobe for the terminology clarification) 22 barrel on my only easy-open frame. I knew better and would normally never use that barrel on that frame (it's stainless and I keep them segregated) but nevertheless I did it and it got stuck.

One trick I remembered reading about is to rap smartly on the trigger guard with a rubber mallet. I did that and it released. This may be one alternative for you, but you do so at your own risk of course. Hitting a firearm with a hammer (albeit rubber) was never high on my list of things to do.

Curtis

smong2000 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 31, 2011, 11:22:41 AM »

I went through the 'stuck barrel' scenario this month on a solid bolt barrel. I called T/C and they sent me 2 replacements about 10 days later, no charge. Five minute fix and all is well. It did take me a week of trying to get through on the phone however.
BTW, the rubber mallet didn't work on mine, I had to pull the trigger out.

BCB · « **Reply #16 on:** January 31, 2011, 11:28:43 AM »

Quote from: Curtis on January 31, 2011, 10:30:58 AM

BCB I basically know what you're saying and for that reason I stick with mainly older frames. I have not had any problem yet, except for the time I put a solid bolt (thanks Ladobe for the terminology clarification) 22 barrel on my only easy-open frame. I knew better and would normally never use that barrel on that frame (it's stainless and I keep them segregated) but nevertheless I did it and it got stuck.

One trick I remembered reading about is to rap smartly on the trigger guard with a rubber mallet. I did that and it released. This may be one alternative for you, but you do so at your own risk of course. Hitting a firearm with a hammer (albeit rubber) was never high on my list of things to do.

Curtis

The barrel that I have major problems with is a 22lr Match. It is not stainless and I have changed the bolts a couple of times. I have 3 different types!!! I guess T/C expects me to flip a coin!...

I agree with the hammer method used to cure a poor quality manufacture responsibility. What a crude method!!! But maybe a gentle tap would allow me to remove the barrel each time I stone the bolts and put them back in place, since the barrel won't open! I wonder if one is to tap the trigger guard when it is pulled back in the release the barrel position?...

(Several times, a 10 pound sledge hammer was concidered! So maybe the rubber hammer would be a more civil solution?)

Thanks...BCB

Curtis · « **Reply #17 on:** January 31, 2011, 11:49:24 AM »

Quote

I wonder if one is to tap the trigger guard when it is pulled back in the release the barrel position?...

I think that is what I did but can't remember for sure. But I think it was more than a tap ........more of a smack.

Curtis

Ladobe · « **Reply #18 on:** January 31, 2011, 12:19:47 PM »

Quote from: BCB on January 30, 2011, 12:16:17 PM

I have a couple of barrels that will not fit on all of the frames I have. My frames are not G2, but they are the easy open ones. They still have the trigger adjustments…

I recently purchased a 22lr Match barrel and it will only function on 1 receiver. I have tried it on others and I can't get it to open. Then the trigger assembly has to be removed and a screwdriver inserted into the guts (lack of terminology!) and twisted to get the barrel free of the receiver. A very annoying and discouraging task. ESPECIALLY WHEN T/C SAYS THEY WILL FIT ALL FRAMES—GOT THE BOX FOR THE BARREL RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME NOW!!!

Best answer I can give you for this is: you will attract a lot more bees with honey than with vinegar. IOW, please keep an open mind and attitude - we are trying to help, not hinder.

Quote

I have heard about stoning the bolt a bit, bit it is always warned, “Not too much.” Well, what is too much? A ten thousandth of an inch, a 1/16 of an inch, a half inch?...
Quote

Basically its a stone to fit. So its trail and error just until it fits and no more. The wear on frames (and bolts) vary from frame to frame and barrel to barrel, so there is no way to give an exact number down to 10 thousands of an inch.

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The last new vehicle I purchased, I didn't have to stone the doors or gear selector to get it to function. It was to do so and it did…

Ever buy a new door or hood for a car? Don't you think they have to be fitted and painted to match in the very least? TC's tries to produce its barrels so they will be useable on every single vintage of frame made since 1967. That is for lots of design changes For the Contenders (to improve a model) and the major change to the G2 model that replaced them. They have no control over which vintage frame a barrel bought will be used on, so they make their barrels so the fit the current model frames and yet can be fairly easily modified to also fit all the others. Can you tell them a better cost effective way that still gives TC owners so much versatility on millions of frames up to 44 years old?

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T/C has let a lot of people down with this barrel fit issue. It is discussed on every website concerning handguns etc. Yet there are some who never have had a bit of trouble…

TC has let nobody down who is at all reasonable due to this barrel bolt issue. Rather they are the model for American gun makers to strive to approximate. None of the others do as much for "a current owner" of their products for the life of that product. The operative part of that was "current owner" since their lifetime warranty is just that no matter how many owners it passes through.

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Guess some people are lucky and some ain’t…

Maybe, but any barrel is a hit or miss to be a perfect fit unless it is a current barrel for a current frame - and all of them depending on wear of the frame or barrel bolt if used. No doubt some might slip through QC even on those. But TC's track record is the best in the business in this country, and on fairly inexpensive products that probably don't net them large profits individually when first sold.

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I am glad I have all of the Contender barrels and frames that I am likely to purchase as I think it gets more complicated as the newer stuff arrives…

Maybe some because of the G2 being a fair major design change, but the barrel bolt issue is a very minor one that by far the majority of TC users accept in stride instead of ranting and raving about it. Few shooters don't tweek any firearm after they buy it at least a little to make it better than out of the box. And that's what fitting a barrel bolt is, a little tweeking that does not require a gun smith, sending it back to the maker, and TC will even give you the parts for free if needed to simply fix it yourself.
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Good-luck with the barrel fitting—T/C will gladly take your money to fix it—what if you had 10 barrel, would they all be sent back too? What about 4 or 5 frames—sent back also?...

If you have the common sense and talent to shoot a firearm in the first place, you have more than enough of both at your disposal to fit a barrels bolt. I think its a good bet that TC has given more free warranty work and parts away to "owners" of their products than any other gun maker. Not becasue they don't make a superior product either, but because they have also warranted damage done to their products by owners or mishap no matter how many owners have owned them.

Regardless, if this barrel bolt issue is such a sore spot for you, you would probably be way ahead to sell your TC's and buy some otjer shooting platform. You'll lose the versatility of the TC's, they'll cost you a lot more, have poorer warranties and can have far worse flaws in them that the maker only may or may not help you with for any price.

Larry

Ladobe · « **Reply #19 on:** January 31, 2011, 12:32:11 PM »

Quote from: Lawful Larry on January 31, 2011, 04:49:27 AM

Quote from: Ladobe on January 30, 2011, 08:18:34 AM
The older barrels had solid bolts (the correct terminology, not locking bolts/lugs) and a flat base before the T5 barrels with a stepped base (both octagon and bull), and before split barrel bolts came along. It was fairly common for barrels with solid bolts needing to be changed to split bolts to work well on the newer frames, and TC always gave away the parts to do it yourself. A very easy fix that anybody can do. There are a heck of a lot of old frames out there in use that have not been converted to easy open and yet use new barrels just fine, some barrels maybe needing a little stoning of the bolts. L.

Can you tell me more about these stepped bolts on octogonal barrels. The two barrels that came with this old frame are octogonal barrels. And yes they do have a stepped bolt on both. Where as my new G2 barrels are squared and not stepped. ??

The "stepped" that I refered to is the large barrel recoil block welded to the barrel, not the barrel bolt. On some blocks the bottom is stepped, on some it is flat.

TC has had several versions of barrel bolts (that lock the barrel closed to the frame). Some may have steps that others did not, I don't remember. Early on the barrel bolts were solid (or one piece), later split. And there were early versions of both that we called barbell bolts because a separate barbell shaped piece laid in half round recesses that had to be in place before sliding the bolt into the barrels recoil block to either pin or set screw it securly in place - which retainer depending on the vintage of the barrel.

Larry

BCB · « **Reply #20 on:** January 31, 2011, 11:05:09 PM »

Ladobe,

I just stated my opinions. The last I heard, we were still allowed to do that. I didn’t point anyone out on the site, but I did condemn T/C about certain things...

I did ask a couple of genetic questions aimed at whomever. Sometimes people give answers to solution they to have read, but not the procedure on how to do it…

I did call T/C concerning the problem with the 22lr barrel. Three or four times as a matter of fact. Never got a bolt until I called the last time and used the "vinegar, not sugar" method. That time it worked, but the parts still didn't work. Then they sent me 3 in different packages. Each woman knew to correct one to send—yea, right, and then why did I get 3 types? And why don’t any of them work?...

Ain’t any way I would send anything back to them. I suspect it is expensive to send a firearm by UPS or whoever. Might as well give a local ‘smith the money if he is qualified…

Sell ‘em all—naaa, would probably loose too much money on them…

And by the way, I am not so sure that car doors and car hoods are a fair comparison to precision parts in a handgun…

Chances are the door or hood was damaged in some way if it is being replaced. Possible things are rusted or another driver has crunched it. They attach with 4” hinges and sloppy brackets and ½ bolts with course threads. These situations are not real conducive to “easy install” (“easy open!”)…

But, I have replace oil filters, air filters, starters, distributor caps, bearings, gears, transfer cases, axles, etc and they fit because they are made to fit and function…

Just my thoughts…

Didn’t mean to offend any “dyed in the wool “ T/C defenders…

To each his own…

BCB

Ladobe · « **Reply #21 on:** February 01, 2011, 10:03:58 AM »

I didn't mean to imply that you were not entiltled to your opinion if that's how you read my post. That's not how I meant it. But us "died in the wool" Contender USERS (not defenders) don't see the simple fine tuning of barrel bolts to match a frames wear to get perfect lock up as a failure on TC's part at all (especially considering they're trying to offer something for so many years and vintages of worn frames to best help all of their customers with the free replacement parts). Most instead consider it a small price to pay for the excellent firearm platform that the Contenders really are. A mountain or a mole hill depending on the person I guess. As you said, to each his own... some love the Contenders and love to tinker with them, some would be better off with something else that is completely "turn key".

I did chuckle at your comments about replacing common automotive parts though (especially the "expendable" ones). If the owner of a vehicle can change any of them himself then he could certainly stone a barrel bolt to fit. The automotive parts are made to fit specific exact years and models of production by manufacturers that are massive when compared to what TC has been for most of the years since it opened, in both profits and resources. Barrel bolts are always subject to the degree of wear on a frame (and I'd bet are even tuned by TC on brand new fireams sold complete from them), so the number of different "sizes" that would have to be produced to assure good lockup and headspacing to fit the huge variations from frame to frame possible out there by simply installing them could be massive. And how would you know what size to ask for or use except by trial and error? We're talking thousandths of an inch more often than not. Some of those automotive parts may require additional parts because of wear as well, but not the whole "frame" so to speak like it could with a Contender for just that one barrel if you won't do the simple fitting of its bolt to that frame.

I agree, automotive parts and firearm parts are not a fair comparison. I had just went with your use of that example when I posted.

BTW, I'm not offened by your opinion, I just don't agree with it, and doubt others are as well. The purpose of this thread was to help those that want the help, want to know how to do something themselves or how to get it done elsewhere... it was not to hinder them like a negative attitude can. Those that tried to help by conveying what they've read has worked for others may not know how to instruct how to actually do something, but their heart is in the right place as they were trying to help as best they could and not hinder.

It's all good, and if somebody learns something new from any of it that helps them then it is not wasted effort by anybody regardless of their opinion.

BCB · « **Reply #22 on:** February 01, 2011, 10:49:46 AM »

I suppose so...

BCB

gr8ful · « **Reply #23 on:** March 27, 2011, 02:23:43 AM »

Split bolts are not free anymore they cost 17.50, have not tried fitting them on my barrel yet but I sure hope it fixes the problem.

BCB · « **Reply #24 on:** March 27, 2011, 02:50:56 AM »

Quote from: gr8ful on March 27, 2011, 02:23:43 AM

Split bolts are not free anymore they cost 17.50, have not tried fitting them on my barrel yet but I sure hope it fixes the problem.

That even more reinforces my opinion…

As I have said, I don’t buy commodities to fix them BEFORE they will perform as advertised…

I will only purchase older receivers and barrels. And before I finalized the purchase of a used barrel, I will take my receiver (s) of choice and see if the barrel will attach. If not, “No Sale”…

T/C most likely will stay in business, but if it becomes somewhat expensive to repair something that should perform when used the first time, they will slowly become a very specialty shooter for those very willing to accept…

And so it goes…BCB

Bullseye · « **Reply #25 on:** March 27, 2011, 04:36:07 AM »

They must have had a major price increase. I agree they are not free anymore, but I ordered a set on 1/20/11 and they were $10.55.

I ordered a set as a test. I had a new G2 frame and none of my 8 older barrels would work on the G2 frame. My 2 newer G2 barrels would. I could have stoned the lugs but ordered a set of G2 lugs to see if just changing the lugs would make it work. It did.

I understand the concept some folks say about needing to stone the lugs as just a Contender thing, but it seems strange that any older barrel will not work on my G2 frame and any barrel with the new G2 lugs do without any stoning. They are just plain made a little differently and I cannot see how they can claim interchangability between the old Contender & G2 from my experience. Stoning the lugs might not be any big deal to us that like to work on guns and love our Contenders, but there are a lot of shooters that would not be happy with it and word will eventually get around that a Contender is not a thing to buy because of the headaches it could cause when buying new barrels.

Does the Encore suffer from this same problem? I have had a couple and a couple of barrels, but never had problems with the lugs and the gun.

Axehandle · « **Reply #26 on:** March 27, 2011, 05:25:01 AM »

I've had the problem with a stainless Encore. None of my barrels would close on the receiver. It was attributed to a S&W induced lack of precision. The frame was a first year production frame manufactured way before any S&W involvement but I chose not to argue... It now works fine as do the three new production (S&W) Encore frames that I own.

Gunrush128 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 27, 2011, 12:19:42 PM »

I just bought a used SSK 375 JDJ barrel and for some reason it won't lock up on my g2 frame. It closes, but just won't lock. The barrel appears to have a 2-pc locking lug. Any suggestions?

David D. · « **Reply #28 on:** March 27, 2011, 03:30:41 PM »

Quote from: Gunrush128 on March 27, 2011, 12:19:42 PM

I just bought a used SSK 375 JDJ barrel and for some reason it won't lock up on my g2 frame. It closes, but just won't lock. The barrel appears to have a 2-pc locking lug. Any suggestions?

Yes, a light stoning of the bolt. Been there done that with my SSK barrel. When I first received mine it would fully engaged only if I snapped it close. A light stoning and it worked fine.