Author Topic: Slugging a 1871 Buffalo classic 38-55 (Read 1350 times)

Tom-ADC · « **on:** January 28, 2011, 02:09:34 PM »

I tapped a few 3 pure lead cast bullets down my Buffalo classic 38-55 barrel and to my surprise it slugs at .375 has anyone else slugged thier barrel? What did it read?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** January 28, 2011, 02:34:43 PM »

Yes, all three of my late model barrels, all slug .379"- .3795" in the groove, no one has ever posted one that tight, mine are as tight as I've seen, most are a touch bigger. They do slug .374" at the lands tho, but that's not sufficient even for jacketed .375" bullets, ask me how I know!!

Tim

Lefty Dude · « **Reply #2 on:** January 28, 2011, 03:04:37 PM »

Very nice at .375".

Mine is like Tim's, slugs at .379".

Tom-ADC · « **Reply #3 on:** January 28, 2011, 03:16:26 PM »

Maybe I have this wrong my largest measurement is .380 the smallest is .375, the .380 is the groove correct? & .375 the bore? or do I have these backwards?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #4 on:** January 28, 2011, 05:44:20 PM »

.380" would be the groove measurement, .375" at the lands.

Tim

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinSlug.htm

Lefty Dude · « **Reply #5 on:** January 28, 2011, 06:04:47 PM »

Your gonna need some big bullets.

BTW; Starline 2.125 thinned neck brass will be the only brass that works for lead bullet loading.

Blackhawker · « **Reply #6 on:** January 28, 2011, 09:04:14 PM »

.3795 on my Wesson and Harrington. I haven't had any chambering problems though.

Load a few different appropriately sized bullets and see how they chamber. If they don't fully chamber then you'll probably have to open up your chamber a bit.

Good luck! If all goes well, I think you'll find the 38-55 to be one of your favorites. I love loading and shooting mine!

Tom-ADC · « **Reply #7 on:** January 29, 2011, 05:30:24 AM »

Brass I have right now is Starline but its the short brass, I loaded a few using 255 gr cast .379 bullets some using Unigue and some using 2400 press is a Dillion 550 dies are Lyman cowboy everything went together good I'll run these thru the gun next week I hope.
My bullets as cast are .383 may try those if my longer brass ever shows up Starline has it on back order.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** January 29, 2011, 06:02:33 AM »

My chambers haven't been neck reamed to .400", but I can't chamber round with .381" cast bullet unless I trim the brass real short or neck turn the brass, .380" bullets in Starline long brass will chamber if I crimp with a Lee factory crimp die.

Tim

Tom-ADC · « **Reply #9 on:** January 29, 2011, 06:22:25 AM »

I don't believe mines been touched either, I just tried to chamber the last ones I loaded the 2400 powder ones and they are tight, I can push them in with thumb pressure and they do eject when I open the it, then they chamber just ine, but the ones I loaded using the Unique powder chambered okay, only change I made was to the powder?
Is this telling me I need the .400 treatment?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #10 on:** January 29, 2011, 06:55:07 AM »

If yours is an ejector, it's an earlier model with the bigger bore and will likely require cast bullets much bigger than you can chamber without the neck ream, but there are some work arounds that can be found in the FAQs, 4D rents the neck reamer, that's in the FAQs too. Late 2006 and 2007 were extractors, 2007 was the last year they made the 38-55.

Tim

Tom-ADC · « **Reply #11 on:** January 29, 2011, 07:50:57 AM »

All my paperwork leads me to believe mine is from 2004.
I reset the crimp die a tad lower and the rounds will chamber okay.
Great site did not know about ejector/extractor years.

lonewolf5348 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 29, 2011, 07:57:09 AM »

I think mine was made by marlin about 3 1/2 years ago
I slug it at .3785
will tack drive .379 to 381 with IMR 3031 at 33.0 grains

gcrank1 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 29, 2011, 09:31:20 AM »

Why do you think you need the 'old' long brass? My '04 model wont chamber it. It is a chamber length for the brass that has been the standard for a way long time now.
I can load .379 bullets in the tight throat with regular WW 38-55 brass, .380s chamber stiff and wont eject until after firing unless I outside neck turn the brass to just the point of the seated bullet base.

lonewolf5348 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 29, 2011, 10:09:39 AM »

I can't load .3795 with WW brass in my 38-55
I solved the problem switching to starline brass ,my rifle can use either size brass long or short and up too .3815 cast bullets
I would bet it can close on .382 but never tried that large of a cast boolet

Tom-ADC · « **Reply #15 on:** January 29, 2011, 10:48:20 AM »

Quote from: gcrank1 on January 29, 2011, 09:31:20 AM

Why do you think you need the 'old' long brass? My '04 model wont chamber it. It is a chamber length for the brass that has been the standard for a way long time now.

Once again I have it backwards the short brass is the current size and not the long?

gcrank1 · « **Reply #16 on:** January 29, 2011, 11:35:53 AM »

Way back, before SAAMI (and remember this cartridge dates to the middle 1880's IIRC) the chambers and cases had a fair bit of variation (normal for then). I dont know when the manufactures changed the brass length, but it may go to about the time of the John Wayne Commemoratives that some of us remember. It went to about 1/10" shorter and for schuetzen shooters of the classic rifles it was 'too short'. For field and fun it probably doesnt matter if they are a bit short. Competition shooters tend to like to fill a chamber with brass close to max. But, if you have a 'new' short (SAAMI?) length chamber brass for the early long one may be too long.
The reason this is important is that a lead bullet does not do its best if the 'crimp zone' is constricted at bullet release. The sized and loaded/crimped case, even if too long, may chamber and extract fine, but upon ingnition and launch the bullet will not be free to bump up and/or may get base band damage. I know Starline long brass is too long for mine (I tested it for fit).

quickdtoo · « **Reply #17 on:** January 29, 2011, 12:45:15 PM »

I think length is irrelevant, Starline long, and maybe the short too, is thinner than WW brass at the neck, <.007" for Starline and .008"> for WW, a little over .001" thicker which equates to over .002" larger in diameter with a bullet seated. All three of the 38-55 barrels I've owned have had .394" chambers at the neck, (actually four, but I never checked the 405Win barrel before it went to Wayne), all will chamber fine with .380" bullets and long Starline, WW won't chamber with the same bullet.

Tim

Lefty Dude · « **Reply #18 on:** January 29, 2011, 01:25:42 PM »

According to my Lyman "Cast bullet handbook" (Third Edition) on page 224 38/55 Winchester.

The case length shown is 2.1295", the test firearm used was a Steven's model 44 1/2, 29" barrel, 1-18" twist and a groove diameter of .379"

My Handi Target Classic chambers the Starline long, ( 2.125") unloaded just fine.

The Winchester brass I have, and I just measured the mouth thickness is .010". The Starline thin neck I use measures .007".

A shooting Pard of mine has a New Winchester 1885 High wall 38-55. This Rifle has a Bore groove of .377". He has the same problem using Winchester brass as I do when using a .378"-.379" lead bullet. The Starline (Long) chambers well in his Rifle as well.

If you use Jacketed .375" bullets you would have no problem. But what kind of accuracy, Not so much I'am afraid.

Who knows ? Maybe they had two lengths back in the day. Short for the Lever Rifles & Long for the Single Shots.

Has any one tried a 2.125" case loaded in a Winchester or Marlin Lever Action Rifles ? Will it chamber with that length of case ?

My Lyman book Comments for the .375 Winchester:
The 38/55 cartridge should not be fired in .375 Winchester rifles because the case is longer and extends into the chamber throat preventing the case mouth from expanding, which could result in the development of dangerous pressures.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #19 on:** January 29, 2011, 02:59:20 PM »

I dug out my notes on the 38-55:
Original case length ran to 2.1295"
Current spec. is max. 2.120" , WW cases measured by me is actual 2.080
As you can see, a considerable difference from original. As far as I have ever heard there were not two different lengths back then. The 'confusion' began with them changing the brass on us.
The 'long' Starline cases are special made to better fill those long original chambers, the only company to do so. They also have the 'regular' length I believe.
Win .375 cases are spec. max. at 2.020"; a distinct change of the typical procedure wherein they made a higher pressure round that would easily chamber in older guns (RED Flags).
For the same reason mentioned not to load/fire 38-55s in a .375 is why you should not use the long Starline cases in a chamber cut to use brass that is closer to the 2.080 I have measured.

Lefty Dude · « **Reply #20 on:** January 29, 2011, 05:07:05 PM »

Has anyone chamber cast there 1871 Target ?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #21 on:** January 29, 2011, 05:16:06 PM »

Yup!

Quote from: quickdtoo on January 29, 2011, 12:45:15 PM

I think length is irrelevant, Starline long, and maybe the short too, is thinner than WW brass at the neck, <.007" for Starline and .008"> for WW, a little over .001" thicker which equates to over .002" larger in diameter with a bullet seated. All three of the 38-55 barrels I've owned have had .394" chambers at the neck, (actually four, but I never checked the 405Win barrel before it went to Wayne), all will chamber fine with .380" bullets and long Starline, WW won't chamber with the same bullet.

Tim

gcrank1 · « **Reply #22 on:** January 30, 2011, 04:52:55 AM »

This discussion makes me think that perhaps there is a variation in the 38-55s more than just the typical small throat in the early BC -TM and the last ones done larger. I have not done a chamber cast but have run my telescoping guage in stages down to the origin of rifling and it seemed pretty definitive that when the 'long' Starline wouldnt chamber by about 1/10" that it clearly was not the 'old chamber length' as I have seen in an original Winchester HW. If it had fit I would have used it, so if that is your 'case'

go for it. Fortunately I have a friend with that brass to try-fit. Now, even if the brass fit, with a bullet seated it must also fit, and that sure wasnt going to happen in mine but it IS happening with others.
BTW, the indications I got with the T-guage are that mine has nothing more than a long evenly tapered chamber (as per originals) to the rifling; no cylinderical neck portion or 'ball-seat', so a resized case with a crimped in 'undersize' bullet may actually fit, but not be optimum.

Lefty Dude · « **Reply #23 on:** January 30, 2011, 05:06:20 AM »

Tim;

What brass length do you use ? IIRC, it's the 2.125" Starline thin neck.

Do you trim it any ? If so what length ?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #24 on:** January 30, 2011, 05:08:30 AM »

This is the SAAMI drawing for the 38-55 Winchester.

Tim

Blackhawker · « **Reply #25 on:** January 30, 2011, 05:54:01 PM »

Quote from: Tom-ADC on January 29, 2011, 06:22:25 AM

I don't believe mines been touched either, I just tried to chamber the last ones I loaded the 2400 powder ones and they are tight, I can push them in with thumb pressure and they do eject when I open the it, then they chamber just ine, but the ones I loaded using the Unique powder chambered okay, only change I made was to the powder?
Is this telling me I need the .400 treatment?

I occasionally have a tight fitting load in my chamber as well. Try this: When you feel one that is sort of tight, don't push it in all of the way. Instead, rotate the round about 30 or so degrees and then try to fully chamber it. Sometimes that works for me. I think that the irregularities of cast bullets sometimes cause "high spots" on the bullets to jam up into the lands of the barrel and by rotating the round, you solve the problem. I don't like firing anything that doesn't fit just right when chambering in the case that it may add to the overall chamber pressure.

Another thought on the tight chambering with the 2400 loads as opposed to your Unique loads may have to do with your crimp setting. Things may have changed ever so slightly with your crimp when you changed powders. If you are crimping with your bullet seating die, you might try to seat the bullet only and then do your crimping with a Lee Factory Crimp die. It's an extra step but it avoids irregular bulges that sometimes show up from seating and crimping with the same die. Such bulges can cause tight chambering and, again, may cause spikes in chamber pressure.....if I understand things correctly.