Author Topic: Just wondering how far away (Read 927 times)

lostone1413 · « **on:** December 18, 2003, 06:43:21 AM »

Being older and not as steady as I was in my youth plus just starting shooting after about 25 years of not shooting I was wondering when you shoot at the range to sharpen up on self defense shooting at what range you shoot at?? Me most of the time it is 7 to 15 yards. Also I see most people when they talk about how far they shoot measure in meters How many meters in a foot or a yard? If anyone has any goot tips that have improved their shooting I would like to hear them. I read about the people holding tight groups at 25-100 yards but I know with my eye sight and as un steady as I im that I will have to be happy shooting at my short range, But wish I could be teling of my tight groups at 100 yards LOL If I ever could have been that good it would have been years ago. Any good CDs that go into different ways to steady a pistol and sight picture?? Thanks Chuck (Cottonwood,AZ.)

willis5 · « **Reply #1 on:** December 18, 2003, 07:33:34 AM »

from what I have HEARD, defensive situations are usually close. like within 10 yards. problem is, it is near impossiple to draw, disengage saftey, aquire target, and fire quicker than it takes some one to close 10 yards to be on you (not that they always rush you).

To answer your question about distance, practice close until you can hit a dime at will. then move it back. this is how I started.

Danny · « **Reply #2 on:** December 18, 2003, 08:40:26 AM »

A meter is equal to 3 feet and about 3 inches, 100 meters is 110 yards.

BCB · « **Reply #3 on:** December 18, 2003, 10:53:09 AM »

lostone1413,

With my open-sighted handguns, I shoot out to 25 yards when not using a sandbag rest. I can rattle my 5.5x11 steel pendulum most of the time. I also have vision problems in my right eye. I have a blind spot near center of focus, so open sights using my right eye can be trying to say the least. I can still use a scope with better than fair results, so I have gone mostly to optical sights.

Aint no big dealDo the best you can do with your skills and vision. Start close and gradually increase the range. If you start at a longer distance than you are capable of doing, you will get discouraged and quit. Been there and almost done that!!!

Now then, about those small groups at longer rangesbeen there and done that too. Yep, I have shot some impressive groups at longer distances, and still do from time to time, with scoped handguns, but I have also shot groups that I dont show-off when sitting at my reloading bench with a few shooting buddies!!! With nearly 35 years of serious reloading under my belt, I have seen many of those shooters who indicate amazing groups at 100 yards, start to stutter, stammer, and blast excuses when they shoot mostly average, or less than acceptable, groups at my shooting benchBeing WITNESSED is the truth indicator!!!

Watching that empty brew can dance at 15 yards might just be more impressive than watching someone try to make one dance at 50 yards!!! Good-luckBCB

myronman3 · « **Reply #4 on:** December 19, 2003, 04:12:40 PM »

Quote from: willis5

from what I have HEARD, defensive situations are usually close. like within 10 yards. problem is, it is near impossiple to draw, disengage saftey, aquire target, and fire quicker than it takes some one to close 10 yards to be on you

i have heard folks make that statement too. maybe true for some, but i will tell you that i will take that bet every time. if someone is ten yards and closing, i have several options. if'n said gun aint in hand already, one can either move away from or closer to said threat. remember, the only rule is: win.

Savage · « **Reply #5 on:** December 20, 2003, 07:52:31 AM »

Find what information you can on the "Tuller Drill". It is very inlightning! Then try it against a random start timer.
Good Luck,
Savage

Savage · « **Reply #6 on:** December 20, 2003, 07:58:12 AM »

Of course it is much more difficult under stress and with a human adversary.
Savage

myronman3 · « **Reply #7 on:** December 20, 2003, 06:40:46 PM »

yeah i know all about it. like i said, one has several options. and i will still take that bet everytime. if you stop thinking, you lose. either move away from threat or attack it. so you cant get your hand on your gun; big deal. knock their head through their shoes; and then withdrawl to a safe distance and take appropriate action. keeping your options limited and having a one track mind will get you killed in combat. you have to cheat; and do it faster and better than your advisary.
the older i get, the better i am at seeing situations devolping and steering clear of them. the vast majority are entirely avoidable. the problem with a scenario such as the tuller drill; is that there is a set of rules that puts a person in a situation that anyone in their right mind would avoid to begin with. and you are supposed to draw your weapon. why not run? why not attack? getting my drift? i can say with cerrtainty i could try that with 100 different people acting the aggressor and i would come out on top 100 % of the time. unless one of them aggressors was a pretty blonde. i might have to let that one win. :lol:

Savage · « **Reply #8 on:** December 21, 2003, 06:06:49 AM »

Absolutely! Avoid, Evade, Disengage, Move!!! Police officers frequently find themselves in this position where disengagement is not an option. The "Tuller" drill was primarily intended to demonstrate the venerability of an officer with a holstered gun at the hands of an assailant armed with an impact or edged weapon. It demonstrated that an assailant so armed could cover 21' and enflict deadly force on the officer before the officer could draw and shoot the assailant. This came about as a result of public outcry over officer shootings of assailants armed with edged/impact weapons. Some segiments of the public felt that a man so armed presented no threat to an armed officer 20/30 feet away. Hey, some thought the officer should have waded in and disarmed the subject! Truth is, very few individuals can draw from a duty rig or true concealment holster, and put a round on target in the one to one and a half second it takes for the assailant to close that distance! Yeah, I can do it from my competion rigs. Having participated in "force on force" training, durring which we spent a good amount of time on this exercise, I was "Killed" about as often as not. No one in my class survived 100% of the time! Keep in mind, we were standing there expecting the charge, now if you add the element of surprise-----------chances are, you're dead!!
The lesson here? As you stated, be prepared, be aware, avoid, withdraw,
move! As an aside, your holster is the second best place to carry your gun. It belongs in your hand if you are in danger of being attacked! Out of sight until it needs to be seen, of course. Too much rambling-------see ya!
Savage

myronman3 · « **Reply #9 on:** December 21, 2003, 04:50:31 PM »

now i have to say, courts trying to hang officers because they shot someone is a crock. it ought to be outlawed. i believe, that if the police tell you to stop and you dont, they have every right to shoot you. there have been numerous cases within 100 miles of me that a section of the public wanted an officer crucified because a guy with a weapon came at them."well he had a mental handicap" or "he was under the influence of..." one case in minnesota (twin cities) a foriegner charged a cop(s) with a machete and they shot him dead. the skinnies in that community wwere outraged because the guy wasnt in his right mind. what did they expect? i thought it was ridiculous that anyone complained; and that the media even questioned it.
with the tuller drill...it has its place in demonstrating how dangerous close in can be. the problem is folks stop thinking; and fail to do the right thing. i guess my whole point is that i dont want folks to think they have to stand their ground, do or die. there are options, use them to your benefit. common sense will get you out of more trouble than your gun. in short, dont adopt it as a combat strategy. stay safe!

Savage · « **Reply #10 on:** December 21, 2003, 05:07:27 PM »

myronman3, You're absolutely correct!!! Remember, the only fight you win, is the one you don't have!
Stay Safe,
Savage

BruceB · « **Reply #11 on:** December 21, 2003, 09:45:16 PM »

Folks;

We have to consider the most likely scenarios in which we might have to use a defensive gun. Although I practice occasionally with my carry guns at distances out to ONE HUNDRED YARDS (thanks, Mr. Ayoob) it's far more likely that I will be confronted by some thug at an ATM, or at a store counter, or when approaching a corner where the jerk has taken cover....

Here, we are talking about FEET, not yards. I practice quite a few drills which I developed for myself. I do believe the most useful and most practical of these is one where I stand close enough to actually PUNCH the target hard with my weak hand while drawing the gun. I then start firing as soon as the muzzle bears on target, from waist height and maybe two feet of distance or even less. I then commence backing up, firing as I go, and the gun ends up in a two-handed hold at eye level by the time I'm ten feet away (or less). I sometimes start this drill with my back to the target, as if someone has approached me at the mentioned ATM, and accosted me. If the target happens to be knocked down by the punch, it then represents a ground-level opponent and is shot accordingly.

What if you're knocked down? I practice firing at close range (5-10 feet) while lying on my back, feet toward the target, and also, lying on my back, HEAD toward the target. Yes, this means shooting with the gun upside down. Also, have you practiced trying to get your gun into action while rolling on the ground, or with it pinned underneath you??? Try it, because it'll open your eyes. It just might be valuable to learn these things on the range, BEFORE you have to do it for real.

What about the carjackers? Try some shooting from your vehicle, and you'll quickly develop an appreciation of how difficult it is to both access your gun, and to shoot accurately at a target just outside the car window. Hint: ambidextrous training is VERY valuable!

I still shoot at longer ranges, out to 25 yards or so, plus the LONG range as mentioned above, but for every round fired over ten yards' distance, I'd bet I fire twenty or more at almost zero range. Non-cop gun carriers are by far most likely to encounter threats at close range, and should practice accordingly.

Regards from BruceB

Savage · « **Reply #12 on:** December 22, 2003, 03:15:40 AM »

BruceB,
Welcome to the forum! Statistics confirm your observations. Attackers like to get close before they make their move. Just be careful using the push off, or the weak hand strike. Shooting yourself in that hand is a real possibility. I have wittnessed this on one occasion! If you use the weak hand strike, be sure to index it across you chest as you clear the holster. Pratice stepping back at the same time with the strong side foot. This step helps in protecting the gun from a disarm attempt and gives you a little room to index the gun and fire from the retention position. Again welcome, and happy hollidays!
Savage

BruceB · « **Reply #13 on:** December 22, 2003, 10:19:31 AM »

Howdy, Savage. Thanks for the kind words. I've hung around on some other Internet sites for a while, but for some reason never made it over here.

You're right about my punch-and-retreat drill. I do indeed step back with the strong-side foot while drawing, which helps in gun retention and starts gaining some distance. My weak hand hits high on the target, where on a real person it would land in the chest/shoulder area. This seems to keep the hand nicely out of the line of fire, as the first round(s) impact around the bellybutton zone, and then the off hand is coming back to the gun. I haven't come close YET....thanks for the heads-up!

I'm not an advocate of "shoot two and evaluate"....as long as the target is standing, I'm shooting to slidelock unless more than one scumbag is involved. (Sometimes I shoot this routine with two targets....makes it a lot dicier, for sure!) Therefore, by the time I reach a good two-hand stance at about ten feet, I'm also planning a reload. My two carry guns both use seven-round mags (9mm Firestar and Sig 220 .45) so the rhythm of fire is much the same.

I like putting an old shirt on the silhouette once in a while so bullet holes aren't so obvious. It makes my mind think about the NEXT shot, instead of the previous ones, when I can't see the results of the earlier ones so easily.

Changing the drills also makes practice more entertaining, too, and I DO enjoy shooting, even if it's in practice for the day we all hope never arrives.

Regards from BruceB

Savage · « **Reply #14 on:** December 22, 2003, 10:38:16 AM »

BruceB,
Sounds like you've got a pretty good pratice routine. Try adding some lateral movement and shooting while moving to cover. Some weak hand drills are fun too!!
Savage