Author Topic: .44/.45 (Read 2304 times)

williamlayton · « **on:** January 31, 2011, 10:38:39 PM »

Can someone explain the differences between these two pistol rounds.
I don't need to know why they happened---I am curious about ballistics and accuracy.
Blessings

kynardsj · « **Reply #1 on:** February 01, 2011, 12:16:48 AM »

I ask that same question about a lot of calibers, rifles and pistols and not just 44's and 45's. I guess if you don't reload and want a hot pistol round a 44 mag is good. I reload and my 45 LC pistols are all Rugers so if I want a hot round I just heat up what I already have and send a larger diameter bullet just as fast. You're looking at a .429 bullet for the 44 and a .451 on the 45. Accuracy can be great or sad with either round according to the individual and the firearm.

Hit or Miss · « **Reply #2 on:** February 01, 2011, 02:57:49 PM »

This is my personal non-scientific belief on the matter. The .44 mag is a high pressure round that can do anything. The .45 Colt is a lower pressure round that can do more!

I'd say accuracy is going to be a horse race with both. I see loads for the .44, 240 gr pushing 1580 fps and for the .45 250 gr pushing 1455 fps. The sight lists no CUP data on those loads. I see loads for the .44 with bullets from 165 to 355 grains and for the .45 bullets from 160 to 350 grains. One must be wary of hot loads in the .45 blowing up those old Colts though. The .45 is also the father of the .454 Casull too!

Tom W. · « **Reply #3 on:** February 01, 2011, 03:05:13 PM »

Depending on how you can shoot they're all pretty accurate.I had a great day at the range last Saturday, shooting my .45 acp Colt Government model, my Ruger Blackhawk Convertible both in .45 acp and .45 Colt, and my SRH in .44 mag. My .45 Colt loads were pretty stout, as were my .44 loads, and my .45 acp loads were a mixture of some that I wanted to get rid of. There were holes on the target right where I pointed the handguns, so the accuracy was there...

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 02, 2011, 03:06:45 AM »

Quote from: williamlayton on January 31, 2011, 10:38:39 PM

Can someone explain the differences between these two pistol rounds.
I don't need to know why they happened---I am curious about ballistics and accuracy.
Blessings

I own both, and both can be shot very accurately. The 45 Colt operates under less pressure. For a reloader, the 45 Colt can do anything the 44 Mag will do, but with a little large hole.

If I had to choose one, the 45 Colt would be my choice, why you may ask. I just like the 45 Colt. Nothing at all wrong with the 44 Mag. For someone that would just buy factory ammo, the 44 Mag is the way to go, more stores carry 44 Mag ammo than they do 45 Colt. You can't go wrong with either one.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #5 on:** February 02, 2011, 05:28:16 AM »

I keep seeing folks claim the .45 Colt can do anything the .44 mag can do but no one has bothered to mention that is true only of certain .45 Colt handguns. While the Ruger Blackhawk is a very popular handgun, there are many more .45 Colt revolvers which will not handle those heavy handloads. That is after all, the reason for the development of the .44 magnum in the first place. Elmer Keith began his handgun development with the .45 Colt, reasoning that the biggest round available would offer the most room for improvement but very quickly discovered that the thin chamber walls would not withstand any more pressure. He in fact concluded that no smokeless powder load safe to fire in the single action army revolver could match the power of the Remington black powder load. Today we have many powders not available to Mr. Keith but it is still pretty much true that for 90% of the .45 Colt revolvers out there one should stick pretty close to blackpowder power levels.
The .45 Colt is a good cartridge and for most purposes the .45 ACP is a better cartridge but I think those who want .44 mag ballistics would be wise to buy a .44 mag revolver if for no other reason than the fact that one of those hot loaded .45 Colt rounds could very easily find their way into a revolver not built to take it.
I have no doubt that Mr. Layton knows all of that but thanks William for stirring the pot.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 02, 2011, 06:45:32 AM »

Quote from: coyotejoe on February 02, 2011, 05:28:16 AM

I keep seeing folks claim the .45 Colt can do anything the .44 mag can do but no one has bothered to mention that is true only of certain .45 Colt handguns. While the Ruger Blackhawk is a very popular handgun, there are many more .45 Colt revolvers which will not handle those heavy handloads.

Maybe I forgot to mention that, but I figured most people that are knowledgeable about guns would know this.. I over look that there are some people that don't have a clue about guns.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #7 on:** February 02, 2011, 07:19:31 AM »

Well if you assume everyone knows that such heavy loads are only for certain guns why would you not also assume everyone knows it makes little difference whether such loads are in .44 or .45 caliber? In other words, if we assume everyone knows why bother to reply?

myronman3 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 02, 2011, 07:52:05 AM »

so now you accuse william of stirring the pot..... i smell a troll.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #9 on:** February 02, 2011, 08:03:35 AM »

Mr. William,
Are you talking about 44 Special vs. 45 Colt / 45 ACP
Or the applications of 44 Mag vs the 45 Colt.
I think the later is pretty much covered.
the former in ballistics all are 1st cousins.
All launch a 230 to 250 grain bullet at 900 to 1000 feet.
The S&W 44 Special is that size as it is the same as the 45 Schofield case. the 45 colt is a larger case the same as the 44 Mag.
The 44 Special is the growth of the 44 Russian in the full length of the No. 3 Cylinder.
The 45 ACP is just an auto version of the 45 Colt developed for the 1905 Browning auto that later grew into the 1911 that we all know.
I like the 44 Special. I just wish they made more guns for it. But then again you can get a 45 ACP in a similar package and use 1/2 or full moon clips instead of other designed speed loaders.
All are the same as 7mm mag, 300 Win and 300 WSM in the rifle world.
And Yes, William is good at asking questions that stir the pot and get information flowing. He will ask a question that is an esay question rather than a multiple choice. He must have been a College professor.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #10 on:** February 02, 2011, 08:20:56 AM »

Well things have been pretty dull here for some time now, the pot needed stirring didn't it?

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 02, 2011, 10:22:33 AM »

Quote from: coyotejoe on February 02, 2011, 07:19:31 AM

Well if you assume everyone knows that such heavy loads are only for certain guns why would you not also assume everyone knows it makes little difference whether such loads are in .44 or .45 caliber? In other words, if we assume everyone knows why bother to reply?

Well at least I tried to give some advice instead of trying to be a smart guy.. You must be one of them know it all guys with a big mouth! What information did you provide besides showing your back side??

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 02, 2011, 10:23:20 AM »

Quote from: myronman3 on February 02, 2011, 07:52:05 AM

so now you accuse william of stirring the pot..... i smell a troll.

I think you called that one right!

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #13 on:** February 02, 2011, 11:05:05 AM »

first anyone not knowing there are differen't power levels of 45 ammo would ask when they read the post.
Since there was a request to not include history lets fast forward to now. You have two bore dia's that offer about the same use at each power level. In black powder the 45 might hold an edge , in same gun the 44 might hold a strength level over a 45. In big bore hunting revolvers I doubt deer notice . Maybe a heavet bullet can be loaded in a 45 Colt over a 44 mag with more room for powder because it would be shorter for dia. I have never seen a difference in accuracy , some guns shoot better . If you hand load then either would be great to hunt with . Well almost, if you hunt and travel to hunt then a 44 mag. would be better if you needed to replace or buy ammo. I dare say few country stores have mag. load 45 Colt loads.
44 loads are smaller by a little if that matters. I have large hands and find working with 45 Colt loads is easier maybe a bit. The 44 bore gun would be heavier all other things equal and blance a bit different maybe. 45 colt carts look better in loops

bigger is better. IMHO the 45 Colt loaded to compete with the 44 mag has a less sharp recoil . So accuracy is dependent on gun and shooter. I will assume you ment 44 mag. vs. 45 Colt to which the 44 mag works at a higher pressure with regard to published loads. Some hand load the 45 colt higher and shoot in 454 c. revolvers. The cases are about equal today with good brands.

Mohawk · « **Reply #14 on:** February 02, 2011, 11:42:57 AM »

The difference? One one-hundreth of an inch

I am still a firm believer that most caliber or cartidges were developed to sell the new latest and greatest guns. Just an example....... Once the .357 came along the .38 Spl was practically no longer even lethal and inadequate for anything but putting holes in paper. Or when the 7mm Mag was introduced the .30-06 was no longer adequate of a deer cartridge. Unless you are really "into guns" that type of advertisement would not be noticed. .44 Special and .45 Colt....... I love them both. The only reason I prefer the .45 Colt is that the ammo seems more available. Even the comparible magnums can be neck and neck with handloads. Compare the .444 Marlin and .450 Marlin, same song second verse. I love the .270..... I bought a .280 to be different from the crowd.......

coyotejoe · « **Reply #15 on:** February 02, 2011, 11:58:59 AM »

Quote from: Redhawk1 on February 02, 2011, 10:22:33 AM

Quote from: coyotejoe on February 02, 2011, 07:19:31 AM
Well if you assume everyone knows that such heavy loads are only for certain guns why would you not also assume everyone knows it makes little difference whether such loads are in .44 or .45 caliber? In other words, if we assume everyone knows why bother to reply?

Well at least I tried to give some advice instead of trying to be a smart guy.. You must be one of them know it all guys with a big mouth! What information did you provide besides showing your back side??

I think I provided the information that you "assume everyone knows", that 90% of the .45 Colt revolvers out there can not handle the loads you "assume" everyone shoots and I think that is relevant to the question asked. And I think I did it without reference to any one's backside.

mechanic · « **Reply #16 on:** February 02, 2011, 12:05:16 PM »

I'm thinking on this as well as many other caliber comparisons, it stems from the fact that there are a LOT of old 45 Colts around that will not handle heavy loadings. As most don't reload, it becomes a mild to moderate round. The 44 Magnum is only chambered in more modern guns. A reloader as stated by some already, with a modern 45 can make it a "magnum" easily.

Factory loads for many others, ie. 45-70 and 30-30 are well below the tolerances of MODERN arms, but must be loaded down for older ones. JMO

Truth be told, any of those old rounds have and are still capable of killing...game or people.

Ben

teamnelson · « **Reply #17 on:** February 02, 2011, 12:27:54 PM »

I can think of one application for which the .44 magnum has been superior FOR ME, and that's shooting Big Bore IHMSA, standing revolver with Iron Sights. Shooting a speer silhouette bullet over a handload in .44 magnum from a Ruger Bisley 7.5" barrel, vs a comparable load in the same gun chambered in .45 Colt, the 44 shot flatter. To reach out to the 200 yd pigs, required a sight adjustment. With the 45 it required significant hold over as it went past the limits of the rear sight adjustment. 150 was the limit for the sights in 45. For 100 yds and less, they were similar in performance on target, but the 45 had more arc to its trajectory. That's a unique application I admit - most folks don't take their single actions out distance shooting.

Disclaimer: I don't have the reloading experience for the 45 colt as I do the 44 magnum. Someone may have a flat shooting load for 200yd BB shooting with a 45 colt.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #18 on:** February 02, 2011, 12:39:41 PM »

44 what?
45 what?

44 mag is best for the novice...maybe even best all around...mostly

45 lc is best for some if your expert and some hand loaders....sometimes
so if you have to ask..........get the 44 mag

pressure limits and .02 of an inch
and commercial availability are the main difference
that and a carbine companion availability

44 russian
454 cassul
44 special

a little off tipic
but as far as the hot 45 colt loads
WHY WOULD YOU SHOOT ANYTHING BUT A RUGER BLACKHAWK?
[talk about stirring the pot]

Tom W. · « **Reply #19 on:** February 02, 2011, 03:22:16 PM »

I did mention that I shot a Ruger BH with my loads.... but the OP didn't specify as to which .45 he was referring to. The standard factory loads for the .45 Colt push a slightly heavier bullet about the same speed as a lighter .45 acp load.
The .44 mag is a bit more lively. And the difference is .429 - to .430 or so for cast for the .44 and .450 to .454 for the .45 cal.

ole 5 hole group · « **Reply #20 on:** February 02, 2011, 04:23:44 PM »

Quote from: 45-70.gov on February 02, 2011, 12:39:41 PM

a little off tipic
but as far as the hot 45 colt loads
WHY WOULD YOU SHOOT ANYTHING BUT A RUGER BLACKHAWK?
[talk about stirring the pot]

If you really want a handful, try a tiny little FA model 97 with a 325 grain HC at 1,520fps - yes, it's a compressed load using a very heavy crimp and yes it hurts and yes, you better have a little experience with heavy hauling single actions or you could get a couple stitches real easy. (For those with somewhat limited experience - You will see the front sight start to climb and the next thing your senses will tell you is your trigger finger might be broke and why is the gun barrel pointing over my left shoulder - all this in a nano-second)

The 5-shot 45's are just plain badass and if they would have been on the range earlier, I don't think there would have been a perceived "need" for the 454 Casull.

Is the aforementioned load really necessary for anything in North America? I don't think so, but that little 97 is a pretty small package but it can be a handful if you want to take leave of your senses and abuse yourself a little - if you're not into self-abuse then 325 grains at 1,050fps will do anything that needs doing.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #21 on:** February 02, 2011, 04:33:04 PM »

Quote from: ole 5 hole group on February 02, 2011, 04:23:44 PM

Quote from: 45-70.gov on February 02, 2011, 12:39:41 PM
a little off tipic
but as far as the hot 45 colt loads
WHY WOULD YOU SHOOT ANYTHING BUT A RUGER BLACKHAWK?
[talk about stirring the pot]

If you really want a handful, try a tiny little FA model 97 with a 325 grain HC at 1,520fps - yes, it's a compressed load using a very heavy crimp and yes it hurts and yes, you better have a little experience with heavy hauling single actions or you could get a couple stitches real easy. (For those with somewhat limited experience - You will see the front sight start to climb and the next thing your senses will tell you is your trigger finger might be broke and why is the gun barrel pointing over my left shoulder - all this in a nano-second)

The 5-shot 45's are just plain badass and if they would have been on the range earlier, I don't think there would have been a perceived "need" for the 454 Casull.

Is the aforementioned load really necessary for anything in North America? I don't think so, but that little 97 is a pretty small package but it can be a handful if you want to take leave of your senses and abuse yourself a little - if you're not into self-abuse then 325 grains at 1,050fps will do anything that needs doing.

I have a custom Blackhawk 5 shot 45 Colt, and yes I can push it to the low end 454 Casull.. And yes it is a handful..

45-70.gov · « **Reply #22 on:** February 02, 2011, 04:47:57 PM »

my son almost got hit in the head with my 500 smith

i also know a woman that shot this gun well...
.before it whipped her husband and he sold it to me

440 grains @ 1600...corbon

350 grains @ 1900...hornady

also as for the 44 shooting flatter.....
44 vs 41......maybe the 41 is better than 44...ect ect ect

williamlayton · « **Reply #23 on:** February 03, 2011, 12:34:43 AM »

It is truely amazing.
I did not say anything about a magnum.
I said a .44.
I certainly do know the difference between a .44 and a .44 mag
I don't need to know about different handguns.
I have read this for a couple of days now thinking it would self right.

Blessings

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 03, 2011, 01:52:02 AM »

Quote from: williamlayton on February 03, 2011, 12:34:43 AM

It is truely amazing.
I did not say anything about a magnum.
I said a .44.
I certainly do know the difference between a .44 and a .44 mag
I don't need to know about different handguns.
I have read this for a couple of days now thinking it would self right.

Blessings

So what is it you are looking for, why don't you be specific as to what you want. It is easy to look on line and find all the data for the .44 and .45..

Are you wanting to know about the 44 Special, 45 Colt, 45 Schofield?. Everything is at your finger tips, just google it. Sometimes I think people do things just to stir the pot. Personally if I want to know about a round, I research that round, I don't ask people vague questions, and expect them to read my mind. Now you had fun with your little game. I will not be coming to any more of your lame threads!

williamlayton · « **Reply #25 on:** February 03, 2011, 02:13:32 AM »

Well, Redhawk, this is a form of research. It is asking a question to a group of folks that I know and trust a whole lot more than some gunrags or writers.
You boys and girls give me better info than most anybody I know.
Folks---in this case--read into a question a parameter that was not up for discussion.
I don't want to know the history of development.
I was wondering--because someone, in a conversation elsewhere--said the .44 was more accurate.
That got me to wondering.
I can't see how it would be more accurate---the gun may be. I see that the .44 is going strong after all these years and I wondered why.
I really don't see any attempt on my part to start a flame/stir the pot or anything that would be remotely concidered as agitation.
Most know that I don't know beans about revolvers--if they don't let me set the record straight---I don't know beans about revolvers.
I would like to know.
Blessings

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #26 on:** February 03, 2011, 02:29:55 AM »

Why didn't you be more specific in your first post?, If you saw as you posted above, that you were reading the thread for the past few day, and it was astray. Why not take the time while reading to be more in detail as to what you were wanting to know. No instead you let it go, and the come in and make your remarks, once again without specificity.

There is not inherently more accuracy from the .44 to the .45 caliber. No matter what gun you shoot, you can find a load that will shoot better in any handgun or rifle you are shooting. So to answer your question, no there is not one that is more accurate over the other.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #27 on:** February 03, 2011, 03:29:16 AM »

Just an aside to the snake who's been trying to log in on my account, "you're no better as a hacker than you are at anything else".

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #28 on:** February 03, 2011, 03:37:59 AM »

You didn't give a case or round for either so I took it as bore size. If your only concern is accuracy then either can out shoot the other depending on gun , who made the gun , what abuse the gun has been subjected to and who holds the gun etc. I shot two like guns one 45 one 44 and they both shot about the same group size with similar ammo. Hope this helps .
My opinion is cal. makes no difference !

williamlayton · « **Reply #29 on:** February 03, 2011, 03:55:29 AM »

Well, lets see here.
I guess I just assumed that anyone who would post would know the difference between a .44 and a .44mag.
You are correct I was not clear---though I still don't know how much more clearly I could have said it.
Give me an example of how I could have said it more clearly.
Blessings