1877 Debange

[Madmachinist]

Where do I get blue prints or close ups I've seen all that Wikipedia has to offer but I need plenty more.  Have my heart set on making one at about 1/20th scale. 

[Cat Whisperer]

Madmachinist -

Welcome to the board!!

The quick answer is that the plans are available (see the info in the stickies at the top of the forum listings).  If you don't find the listing we'll point it out.

[seacoastartillery]

      Gee CW, I don't see that set of plans either.  Could you please point out where the plans to the DeBange breech are located on GBO?

Thank you,

Tracy

[Cat Whisperer]

OOOOOOOPS.

So much for MY quick read!  What the heck is a 1877 Debange?     Sorry.  In my haste I read it as something else which I knew was inthe stickies.

Too much catnip.   

[Cat Whisperer]

INTERESTING dude, this guy De Bange - the first successful obdurating seal for breach loading cannons, still in use today!

Well worth the google search, but I didn't turn up anything like plans.

[Double D]

I googled deBange and didn't turn up any plans right off the bat.  I did pull up a bunch stuff that needs the additional research including illustrations..  THe wikipedia entry has a bunch of links in it to follow-up.  Be sure and click pictures and see what there source is.  That source may have part or all of what you are looking for.

Also when you Google click on  the images link and look through  the pictures there.  Click on them and you will be taken the website where the pictures are posted...there might more pictures or a reference you need.

Also if you end up on a French website copy the url into Google and search it. When the hit list comes up click on translate.  Look for a contact in those websites and send them an email-in French if you know it English if you don't. Tell them what you are looking for and why.  Don't just contact one party contact as many as you can.    if they don't have what you need, ask them if they know who does.   

Keep looking and don't give up.

I'm sure the guys here are digging in there books to see with what they might come up with.

Keep us advised on what you come up with and the progress on your build.

[GGaskill]

If you look in Modern Guns and Mortars Adopted in the United States Land Service, Their Carriages, Projectiles, Fuzes and Sights on page 99 discussing the 3.2" field rifle and the diagrams preceding, you will see De Bange obturators although they are not explicitly called that.

This book is worth downloading if you have an interest in 1865-1895 artillery.

[Cat Whisperer]

Breech loaders are an area of cannons that we haven't thoroughly explored; we need to.

There are some legal issues that need to be coordinated with BATF, and we need to provide some successful applications of the process - it can be done (and it can be done right).

I would love to have/make a picknic-table-top breech loader of 1/2 to 3/4" bore.

[Madmachinist]

Well, for starters, the Debange was an 1877 gun.  Its a Breech loader all right, but it does not utilize fixed ammo.  YOu need to load the projectile then teh charge and finally prime it.  Just like some of the modern "muzzle loading" hunting guns that get loaded from the breech.  I guess for starters we need to find out if anyone on the board has got in touch with ATF for any interpretations on this particular cannon.   

[Double D]

Well, for starters, the Debange was an 1877 gun.  Its a Breech loader all right, but it does not utilize fixed ammo.  YOu need to load the projectile then teh charge and finally prime it.  Just like some of the modern "muzzle loading" hunting guns that get loaded from the breech.  I guess for starters we need to find out if anyone on the board has got in touch with ATF for any interpretations on this particular cannon.

Why don't you just write ATF your self and see what they say.

[Madmachinist]

I got an over the phone reply from my associate who called while I was busy.  They don't care that the design is pre 1898 or that it is not loaded via a complete cartridge.  They are concerned with the bore diameter that turns it into a DD.  Anything under .500" is just fine.  I might just have to keep it like that.   Well, how about the beer can mortars.  Only diff is that they load via the muzzle.  I'll dig a bit deeper with the legalities.  meanwhile if anyone has any close up pics of the carriage, breech lock ( especially the hinge and breech lock holder) and anything else lets keep em coming.   

[Double D]

I got an over the phone reply from my associate who called while I was busy.  They don't care that the design is pre 1898 or that it is not loaded via a complete cartridge.  They are concerned with the bore diameter that turns it into a DD.  Anything under .500" is just fine.  I might just have to keep it like that.   Well, how about the beer can mortars.  Only diff is that they load via the muzzle.  I'll dig a bit deeper with the legalities.  meanwhile if anyone has any close up pics of the carriage, breech lock ( especially the hinge and breech lock holder) and anything else lets keep em coming.   

I will give you the advice of a former law enforcement officer, mostly federal, never ever depend on the verbal statement of any law enforcement officer for a legal interpretation of the law. When you are hauled off to court to answer,  that Law Enforcement of will not be found or if found will disremember the conversation as you state.  Law enforcement Officers can not give binding legal interpretations of the law. 

Beside what that person told you was categorically wrong, you already spotted that.

The only interpretation that will hold any water has to come in writing from ATF Headquarters in writing and you must keep that letter safe.

Do not rely on what you might find on the internet or from some good old boy who knows, none of these will hold any water in court and most of it is wrong or misinterpreted..  That is specifically why we do not allow legal interpretations on this board.  We do not want this board to be the source of misinformation that results in some being arrested and prosecuted.

Write a letter to:

ATF Headquarters
Enforcement Programs and Services
99 New York Avenue, NE
Washington, DC 20226 USA

Ask your question be specific but  brief. Save that letter.

 

[Double D]

As to the second part of your request, I found a good deal of what you are looking for with a simple Google search.

I started with Google and searched for Debange Cannons.  I got 1130 hits.

I started with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Ragon_de_Bange  Lots of information there.  Click on pictures, click on drawings lot of information found.
 

Encyclopedie Larousse Illustree copyright expired


Encyclopedie Larousse Illustree copyright expired


(French 155 mm model 1877 cannon, displayed in Hämeenlinna Artillery Museum. Photo taken on June 18, 2006. Source: Photo by me, User:Balcer. == Licensing == {{self2|GFDL|cc-by-2.5}} Category:Finnish Artillery Museum [[Category:Canon de 15)


(French 155 mm model 1877 cannon, displayed in Hämeenlinna Artillery Museum. Photo taken on June 18, 2006. Source: Photo by me, User:Balcer. == Licensing == {{self2|GFDL|cc-by-2.5}} Category:Finnish Artillery Museum [[Category:Canon de 15)

The last two pictures have a great source for you to follow up on the Hämeenlinna Artillery Museum.  Here is a link to that museum. http://www.tykistomuseo.fi/piilosivut/artillery_museum/  right in the middle of the page is an email address.  Send them an email and tell them what you are looking ask if they might be able to help you. 

Further on in   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Ragon_de_Bange you will find a number of links highlighted in blue.  Click on the links and you will be taken to sites with additional information.

Also from the Google hit list at the side you should see an option to select just images.  Scroll through the images and if you see one that looks interesting click on it and go to the web page and see what’s there.  Look for a contact for on the web page and send them an email and ask questions. 

Just because you see one pictures don’t assume if you see it again that they are the same.  Here is an example.

This picture

Will lead to this webpage http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/Gun_Data.htm

On the page use Find, Alt F or CTRL F and look for all reference to de Bange

If you scroll further down that list of pictures you will find another picture that looks the same, but isn’t.



Use you find again.  If you try to find de Bange on that website you won’t find anything. If you look for deBange one word then you will find something.  What I found was very interesting.  This term “DeBange gas-check system”   I put that term into Google and came up with a whole bunch more information. 

One that was interesting was http://books.google.com/books?id=rpwKAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA481&ots=JEw0LLaBaU&dq=DeBange%20gas-check%20system&pg=PA481#v=onepage&q=debange&f=false  A Supreme Court decision.

But then there s this one.  http://books.google.com/books?id=IHkDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=DeBange+gas-check+system&source=bl&ots=QUJ98Po_Wq&sig=QMRj5Xo_a6xggw24aRUYJmKVY9w&hl=en&ei=pDtLTfW6M47msQO7xISiCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CDUQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

And the this one

http://books.google.com/books?id=zEhAAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA66&lpg=PA66&dq=DeBange+gas-check+system&source=bl&ots=PmhfLeuAf0&sig=_FGE2FUKr7v0dBuyChBRlUrqbbM&hl=en&ei=pDtLTfW6M47msQO7xISiCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q&f=false


Okay, I have shared with you my knowledge of internet research, now you have to build one of the guns and show me how to do the machining…. 

[Cat Whisperer]

Good research, Douglas!

That design looks very similar to our 155mm SP breech obduration.  Not exactly the same but VERY close.