Big gun vs. little gun

[Mike in Virginia]

I have too much free time since retirement, I know.  So, here's another thought. 

Do you feel okay carrying a smaller gun, like a J frame or a .380?  Do you feel safe against assailants that would take your life?  Do you have an attitude that allows you to carry a smaller caliber because the chances of needing a gun at all are very, very slim?  Do you justify ease of carry ?with the reasoning that any gun is better than no gun?

I've been guilty of that.  The thing is, if you have minimum firepower, you have minimum chance of surviving an encounter against heavy firepower.   One of the teachings I remember in my early years as a cop is that if someone wants to kill you, he probably will.  When an officer stops a vehicle, he approaches as carefully as possible, but if the violator is armed and wants to shoot you, he will.  During my career, I saw with my own eyes three troopers (3 different shootings) dead on Interstate pavement.  I was not involved, except as assigned after the fact.  One of the three was killed with a single bullet from a .44 Special, one was killed from 2 rounds from a .357M.  Can't remember the third; it was a long time ago, but it was a one shot killing. 

My point is, we have little enough chance of surviving as civilians if gun fire is required, so we ought not increase an attacker's odds by being out gunned.  One shot from a 2" .38 will very likely not prevent you from being killed, but one shot from a longer barreled big bore will greatly increase your chances.  5 shots from said .38 (if they connect) will likely stop the bad guy, but the time it takes to shoot 5 times will not be available.  Also, large magazines and little bullets are nice, but TIME is everything in a shootout.

I say carry something that has authority.  I'm no expert on the matter.  I reckon I'm just looking for input from others who worry about such things. 

[Mike in Virginia]

I forgot to say that all 3 of those officers expired with their weapons holstered.  TIME, TIME, TIME is our ultimate challenge.  It's the critical difference.  Those 3 men were all my friends.  I knew them well.  They are gone because of the TIME it took to shoot them. 

If you carry a handgun that points well, which means a gun with a barrel longer than 2"), and a gun you can get into action immediately, and a gun that has the capability of stopping an aggressor, you've done all you can do to keep yourself alive for your family's welfare. 

Another point:  I don't buy into the incorrect hype about a 125 grn. .357 Magnum being the ultimate one shot stopper.  It is that only if you look at limited data, but common sense tells us it can't be the truth.  What if a horde of terrorist came to your home with AK-47's.   Your best bet would not be a handgun.  It would be a large caliber rilfe, like a semi-auto .308.  Which means, a .308 is better than a .357.  If that's true (and you know it is), a .44 Magnum is a better stopper than a .357, regardless of what published data states.  That data is limited to percentages of actual shootings, and not many people have been shot with a .44 Magnum, compared to the .357.  Point being, the more gun you have in your hands when you need it, the more chance you have of winning.  I know we can't carry a .308, but we can consider the best handgun available.  Think about it in real world terms.  When the moment arrives, if it ever does, what is the handgun you would most like to have with you at that critical moment?  It ain't a 5-shot .38.   It ain't an LCP.  It ain't even a high capacity 9mm.  It's something bigger than you like to carry.  It's a 45acp, or a 10mm, or a .44 Magnum.     

[LocnLod]

I have in the past relied on a J frame or Kel-tec 3AT.  Usually a high stress range session with moving and reloading cures me of that.  If I'm going to go to the inconvenience to be armed now, I'm going to carry more bullets and more importantly, on a platform that I can shoot accurately and quickly under stress. 
I still like to balance concealability so most of the time it's a G30SF with one reload or a G26 if I have to pocket carry.

[45-70.gov]

i would want  my 500 snw

won't matter if they have body armor or   not

but then  i am  REAL   good with  my 5 inch 44mag  with my 280 grain cast

i do carry concealed the 44mag during deer season...i am that sure with  it

these  2 guns are in my safe  over 99% of the time

my  357 is with my every day  ALL day....2 inch  DAO....640 smith....5 shot

yes the   125  357.....with  only 5 shots.....i want the  #1  one shot stopper

i focus  on  one shot through the middle.........i  know  i should double tap
but  i just want  to  be as fast and accurate  as possible..
.and  training to double tap  detracts from  that

several  hundred times a month..i draw  my gun and ...
instead of pulling the trigger.......tap the laser.....witch   i rearly  ever  shot with
under  50  ft....i have  NO  need for  sights.....so much  for needing a long barrel
no  need for sight aliagnment.....its as natureal  as throwing a ball at some one

its in  you training and you mindset....more than  your hard wear
also....its a matter of not leaving you big gun behind

as far  as how well they are armed  than  me.......
mute point when the little 357 fragments in the center of your chest

we  all talk  of getting bigger and badder  guns
i recently had to evict a felon...who had made a few  threats
i took the shot gun with me out there  for a week or so
body  armor would be a more practical  upgrade,,,
,but i never thought about  that until  now

[williamlayton]

I have always liked big guns over small---even if we are talking calibers.
Now there are limits both to size and caliber.
My reason for carry has always been self-protection---I have never handgun hunted.
While I admit to carrying a PPK for 30 odd years--it was because of size. It just fit better with my suit and tie uniform.
Later in life I discovered that I could conceal just as easily a larger framed and larger caliber---that was because I made a career change--and was not in suit and tie as often nor in an office surrounding..Real Estate.
I have always preferred a heavy weapon for shooting pleasure.
Blessings

[shot1]

The average self defense situation for the average person is up close and personal. The average self defense situation is a robbery where someone pulls a gun or knife on you by surprise and the smartest thing you can do is just RUN. They are interested in your money not killing you.  If push comes to shove though a small gun is better than NO GUN. There are many situations were the carrying of even a small frame 38 revolver or semi-auto 9,40,45 are out of the question but a Kel-teck or Ruger LCP 380 in a pocket holster does for me. Like has been said if some one is bent on killing you and you don't know they are coming and they take you by surprise it don't matter what weapon you have on you because you will be dead before you can use it.

If I am going to a gun fight like has been described it won't be with no pistol. It will be with a Shotgun or one of my Semi auto Rifles.  But I do my best to stay out of those situations.  There is no disgrace in running from a deadly situation as a civilian. It will most often save your life. But if you have no other choice you better learn how to put those bullets in a kill spot quickly no matter what weapon you have on you.

[Dee]

I have a Model 686 2 1/2" I just slicked up to my specs, but I also have a Model 60 I slicked, and dressed in the same fashion. I admittedly carry the Model 60 more but, I also note that both are equally as easy to hide as I carry them as belly guns, and before you ask, no I am not over weight. They just hide better for me like that, and are very fast from there on the deployment aspect.
Having said that, BOTH ARE 357 MAGNUM.
Like Mike I have seen officers killed. Three in less than a half hour, one wounded and both bad guys killed. This was back in 78 and just across the border in Ok. When we crossed the Red River bridge it was at 140mph, and OHP was screaming over the radio for all the help it could get from us Texans. But as Mike stated, TIME WAS OF THE ESSENCE. We were far too late, and it was over when we got there.
The 125 grain JHP in 357 magnum was then, and still is the KING IN ONE SHOT STOPS in L.E. records keeping. But you have to hit to make it count. One has to decide what one's life is worth. Is it worth a major caliber, or a minor one. In those days I used my gun twice to put an end to a situation on two separate occasions, although both were similar. The first was with a Model 28 Smith shooting the aforementioned round and bullet. The second was with a Customized 45 Combat commander shooting hot 200 grain hollow points. Both got the job done, but the 357 magnum was far superior in performance in all aspects.
I have often smiled at the large capacity magazines that gun writers tout, and civilians and L.E. officers buy into, when thru experience I found that mine, and most other officers EXPERIENCE with a fight know that it will be over in SECONDS, and sometimes "SPLIT" SECONDS. I will take the power of the 357 magnum, and the balance of penetration and bone breaking authority of the 125 grain JHP any day. And a 357 sig, is damn sure not the same. It's a 9mm with a different name and a few extra FPS. Nothin more, nothin less. Don't want to argue, or hurt any feelins, but have actually seen it, and done it. Theories are just that. Theories that don't amount to a thing. Do some research on the boys in blue, and find out what really works. You don't have to take my word on anything, and shouldn't. The info is out there, if you look in the right place, and discard coffee shop commandos, and gun rag writers hawkin the latest gattlin gun.

[LocnLod]

Regardless of what you carry, I think it's a big mistake to think because you are using this caliber or that caliber that you have Thor's Hammer in your possession.  Handgun rounds are poor stoppers.

Also, just like it's a mistake for the average non gun carrier to think they're safe, it's a mistake for a gun carrier to think that his self defense situation is going to be the average one that everyone talks about on the internet.  Average means that half were worse than what you're planning for.

[Dee]

While I agree with most of you analogy LocnLod, there are some calibers of handgun that are far better than others. That is the topic of the thread and discussion. If one really want to win then carry a shotgun on sling, and don't leave the house without a security detail.

[LocnLod]

Yes some handgun calibers seem to be a little better than others.  Since we are talking about concealed carry of a handgun not a long gun, easier to shoot handguns will give you an advantage over harder to shoot guns which is the point I was trying to make.  I think that your 686 is easier to hit with under stress than your 60.

If we are talking about the Sanow/Marshall stats, the full power 125gr 357 mag is the kind of the sub 45 calibers but that is out of a 4" barrel.  Shorter barrels turn it into a 9mm+P in power which isn't a slouch either. 

[Mohawk]

 I gave up on "calibers" many years ago. If the bullet hits the right place then the person will die, quickly. I will suggest NEVER, NEVER, NEVER opt for expansion over penetration. That is my two cents......

[Dee]

Yes some handgun calibers seem to be a little better than others.  Since we are talking about concealed carry of a handgun not a long gun, easier to shoot handguns will give you an advantage over harder to shoot guns which is the point I was trying to make.  I think that your 686 is easier to hit with under stress than your 60.

If we are talking about the Sanow/Marshall stats, the full power 125gr 357 mag is the kind of the sub 45 calibers but that is out of a 4" barrel.  Shorter barrels turn it into a 9mm+P in power which isn't a slouch either.

No I am not talking about the Sanow/Marshall stats, I am talking "real world" nation wide police shooting stats that have been kept by the FBI since the early 60s and published yearly to the law enforcement organizations "nation wide". The best one shot stopping record "nation wide" goes to the 125 grain JHP in 357 magnum. Barrel length was not a factor in the records, as the stats were on ACTUAL shootings, REGARDLESS OF LAUNCHING PLATFORM and were not for any other purpose other than departmental information. In other words, no one was trying to sell anything. 
As for the 9mm, it has THE WORST ONE SHOT STOPPING RECORD in L.E. record keeping history in ANY CONFIGURATION. It is the sole reason many better informed depts. are transitioning AWAY from it, as is the military. I started instructing officers in 1977, and when the 9mm began to enter into the L.E. community, the FBI states almost immediately began to indicate this fact. Thus the birth of the double tap technique which I went to school to properly instruct in it's use.
Seasoned officers whom have actually been in a fight shun the caliber. Only a few defend it, and no shorter barrels DO NOT turn it into a 9mm +P, any more than the so called 357 Sig is turned into a 357 magnum with a little extra velocity.

[mcwoodduck]

I gave up on "calibers" many years ago. If the bullet hits the right place then the person will die, quickly. I will suggest NEVER, NEVER, NEVER opt for expansion over penetration. That is my two cents......

I agree, Shot placement is the key to stopping a fight.
Find a gun that fits your life style, like William said he carried a 380 due to size.  Now they have 9mm that are smaller than a Walther PPK/s.
When i lived in Norfolk and rode a peddle bike from campus area to Military circle mall, I worked near by, I carried a 380 too in a fanny pack.
It was the holster I could get to on the bike and it did not print the gun like a hip holster did when bent over peddeling.
While I wanted something else than what I got the Sig P230 was what I was able to open the fanny pack and draw out ready to use.  The Walther PPK/S that I really wanted or the S&W M60 or 640 came out with the hammer in the middle of my hand and the 640 too had me funbling in the holster to make the gun work.  The 230 just jumped into my hand.
After finding a gun that would work, I then set to making sure it would work for me.  I bought lots of ammo to break the gun in.
Lots of the carry ammo to make sure it worked in the mags and functioned.  Then I set about shooting the gun.  I poured through 500 rounds of FMJ making sure the gun worked before I started to work with the the gun.  I regularly went to the range with it to make sure I can hit something and both handed.   i was on a bike and I figured my draw would be from the ground if I was knocked from the bike.  then I picked the best bullets I could.   I did the Tripple tap drill.  two chest, one head.
Was I under gunned- Maybe-  If it was one or two trying to get me or the bike or any $ I had on me, NO.  Was I undergunned if it was a street gang and there were 10 + of them.  Yep.  but even with an AR and a beta mag, I am not sure I could stop 10+ street thugs in the time needed to save my life.
Also when not on the bike I would carry a P226 full size 9mm or my 6" M29 loaded with specials.

[Mohawk]

Forget the "head and chest drill". If it were an actual self defense situation, you probably would not remember it anyway. Just point and shoot. I agree that in situations your training will take over but not the "head and chest drill". That is more an offensive drill, not defensive. When used defensively, it was pathologically welled trained.....ain't going there.........

[Spirithawk]

I carry a Kel Tec P-32 .32 Auto but it is backup to my Kel Tec PF-9 9mm. The best stopping round is one that has power enough to reach a vital organ creating the largest wound channel and doing the most damage. Keeping in mind that the bullet will have to penetrate layers of clothing before it even contacts skin. You want the fastest bleed out possible. The only true one shot stops is to the brain or spine. I've no doubt that my son can do a triple tap, with either hand, so fast it sounds like one shot, but he has had extensive tactical training and few of us have even come close. I like the PF-9 because it is light, very easy to conceal, very accurate and chambered in a decent defense round. If I had to choose between it and the P32, though the .32 disapears in a pocket, I'd choose the PF-9 every time!

[jmayton]

I like the .40 S&W.  Nice compromise between power, contrallability, and mag capacity.  When people ask me this question my usual response is, "Shoot what you can hit with."  Big bullets that miss don't do a whole lot.  I'm fine with my .45 or my 66 with some hot 357's in it, but my wife can't hit squat with either of those, but you wouldn't want to mess with her with a Glock 17 in her hands.  Bottom line: hits are more important that the size of the holes.

[Spirithawk]

I like the .40 S&W.  Nice compromise between power, contrallability, and mag capacity.  When people ask me this question my usual response is, "Shoot what you can hit with."  Big bullets that miss don't do a whole lot.  I'm fine with my .45 or my 66 with some hot 357's in it, but my wife can't hit squat with either of those, but you wouldn't want to mess with her with a Glock 17 in her hands.  Bottom line: hits are more important that the size of the holes.

I agree, it doesn't matter what you own it does you absolutely no good if it's left at home or you can't hit squat with it. There is no one perfect firearm. What works fantastic for one person may not work worth a dang for someone else. With all the choices, of some pretty good firearms, out there there is no excuse for not doing your research which means reading reviews, talking to folks who own the models you're interested in, and then going into your firearms shop and handleing each of them before you decide. For instance, my son-in-law has the Millinium Pro and I kinda liked it and had been interested in one. That all changed the instant I actually held it in my hand. It might be a good gun but if felt like crap in my hand! If you are going to trust your life to a weapon get the best you can afford and that fits both your needs and your ability to shoot it well. To me, caliber is less important than those two requirements.

[Graybeard]

I believe too much time and effort is spent on worrying about what caliber or gun to carry and not enough on the most important things for your personal and family protection.

I see two things far more important than what gun/caliber you carry and hesitate to place one above the other. Those two things are mental awareness of your surroundings and any potential threats lurking and just having a firearm with you at all times.

Without those two I don't think the rest matters.

I carry a variety of firearms for protection depending on the situation and clothing I'm wearing. They all have one thing in common and that is no bells and whistles to remember if the time ever comes I need to put them to use. They all are pull the trigger and it goes bang guns with no safety buttons to remember. The only effective safety is between your ears so I don't rely on mechanical devices to do what my brain is supposed to do.

I've never needed to draw in anger or defense and certainly hope I never do have the need but I'll continue to be armed just in case that time ever comes.

Unlike one poster who said that if going to a gun fight he'd take a shotgun if I were going to a gun fight and knew I was I'd stay home instead. I'm not going to intentionally put myself or my family in harms way when I can avoid it by just not going to the wrong places or by staying home when going out is more dangerous than normal.

I'm retired so don't have to do much of anything I don't want to. I do not have to go anywhere that I feel would be overly unsafe and don't. When walking from truck to a store or back to my truck in the parking lot my head is as if on a swivel checking each potential hiding place for a bad guy and yeah that includes being aware of what's behind as well as in front of me and to both sides. I don't plan to be or to look like an easy mark.

I am NOT a believer in the .45acp myth and much prefer a .357 mag to it or for that matter a 9mm. Most of the guns so chambered are too large for my hands and the bullets just don't have enough velocity to suit me. Maybe my dislike for Cooper has caused me to also dislike his favorite round.

The secret to not being a victim I believe is to first not go places that are known to be hangouts for bad guys. Second to be as aware of your surroundings as possible and be on the alert looking for potential bad guys or potential hiding places for them as possible and lastly make dang sure you are armed and familiar with your carry gun at all times.

I don't go to parking lots at night as a general rule cuz I don't see as well at night and the bad guys can more easily hide in the dark than in the daylight. I can't run so that's not an option for me. I can't really fight effectively either. I can however shoot quite well and have been using handguns for self defense, hunting and target shooting for 44 years now. So far in those 44 years I've managed to avoid the need to use a gun for defense and hope it remains that way the rest of my life.

I keep my doors locked 24 hours a day unless I'm outside and live where it would be difficult for anyone to get to my house when I'm out without my knowledge. I have a firearm ready anytime I'm home and have a lot better choices available if needed than a handgun here at home.

[Spirithawk]

I believe too much time and effort is spent on worrying about what caliber or gun to carry and not enough on the most important things for your personal and family protection.

I see two things far more important than what gun/caliber you carry and hesitate to place one above the other. Those two things are mental awareness of your surroundings and any potential threats lurking and just having a firearm with you at all times.

Without those two I don't think the rest matters.

I carry a variety of firearms for protection depending on the situation and clothing I'm wearing. They all have one thing in common and that is no bells and whistles to remember if the time ever comes I need to put them to use. They all are pull the trigger and it goes bang guns with no safety buttons to remember. The only effective safety is between your ears so I don't rely on mechanical devices to do what my brain is supposed to do.

I've never needed to draw in anger or defense and certainly hope I never do have the need but I'll continue to be armed just in case that time ever comes.

Unlike one poster who said that if going to a gun fight he'd take a shotgun if I were going to a gun fight and knew I was I'd stay home instead. I'm not going to intentionally put myself or my family in harms way when I can avoid it by just not going to the wrong places or by staying home when going out is more dangerous than normal.

I'm retired so don't have to do much of anything I don't want to. I do not have to go anywhere that I feel would be overly unsafe and don't. When walking from truck to a store or back to my truck in the parking lot my head is as if on a swivel checking each potential hiding place for a bad guy and yeah that includes being aware of what's behind as well as in front of me and to both sides. I don't plan to be or to look like an easy mark.

I am NOT a believer in the .45acp myth and much prefer a .357 mag to it or for that matter a 9mm. Most of the guns so chambered are too large for my hands and the bullets just don't have enough velocity to suit me. Maybe my dislike for Cooper has caused me to also dislike his favorite round.

The secret to not being a victim I believe is to first not go places that are known to be hangouts for bad guys. Second to be as aware of your surroundings as possible and be on the alert looking for potential bad guys or potential hiding places for them as possible and lastly make dang sure you are armed and familiar with your carry gun at all times.

I don't go to parking lots at night as a general rule cuz I don't see as well at night and the bad guys can more easily hide in the dark than in the daylight. I can't run so that's not an option for me. I can't really fight effectively either. I can however shoot quite well and have been using handguns for self defense, hunting and target shooting for 44 years now. So far in those 44 years I've managed to avoid the need to use a gun for defense and hope it remains that way the rest of my life.

I keep my doors locked 24 hours a day unless I'm outside and live where it would be difficult for anyone to get to my house when I'm out without my knowledge. I have a firearm ready anytime I'm home and have a lot better choices available if needed than a handgun here at home.

Well said. Avoiding trouble is by far the easiest and safest way to get out of it!

[jmayton]

Graybeard, as always wise words.  I would also say that training and practice are also vital components to protecting oneself.  I decided to shoot an IDPA match with my S&W 66 one time (I usually shoot a Glock or 1911).  I asked a Master-class ESR shooter for advice.  His answer, "Make sure you can count to 6."  First stage I fired six rounds then pointed the gun at the next target and hesitated for about a second then remembered to reload.  My training and practice had conditioned me for the use of an automatic.  If it had been a personal defense situation instead of a game, that one second could have cost me my life.

[LocnLod]

Dee, the 9mm had a worse record than .38 lead round nose?  Did the .45ACP rate pretty good, that's what I am carrying now.

[Dee]

LocnLod, I don't recall the record break down as to whether the 38 special lead round nose was even mentioned. The 45 acp was near the top, but not as well as one might expect. I have built and carried a lot of 1911s in 45 acp, but was always aware of their limitations. The comparisons are varied in a L.E. stand point and I will try and give you but one example as they are endless.
45 acp ball will many time glance off, and not penetrate a car windshield. A flat point or wide mouth hollow point will most always penetrate the same windshield in that caliber. A 9mm ball will sometimes glance off of said windshield but will usually penetrate it, as will the hollow point versions of the 9mm.
A 357 magnum will most always penetrate the same windshield in ANY bullet configuration. The reasons are more along the lines of the balance of power, and BULLET CONFIGURATION. This is also true involving one shot stops on BGs.
I am not in this to promote MY PERSONAL CHOICE, or give theories, I am giving information gained from stats of actual street fights, and what was learned from them. Another example is that a 9mm ball will out penetrate a 357 magnum 125grain JHP many times. Problem in this example is not power, but bullet configuration. An additional aspect is, that a 9mm hollow point shooting thru clothing will many times act as a cookie cutter, and the hollow point will fill with material and thereby negate the hydraulics (body fluids) needed to make the hollow point work,and the round literally becomes a ball round. The 357 mag 125 grain JHP is the balance of power, soft point-hollow point, AND bullet configuration. Just as a 9mm usually bounce off a bone, the 357 mag breaks the bone.
When I carried a 45 acp I carried a FLAT POINT for all these reasons. I carry the 357 magnum now for several reasons. I am retired, and no longer looking for a fight, it's absolute reliability in functioning, the excellent balance in power, penetration and it's inherent versatility. It has proven itself to me thru personal experience when the chips were down, and friends that were fellow officers giving me personally their accounts of their results in an actual fight.
I'm not selling guns, I'm not knockin any one's choice in what they carry. I'm merely stating what I know from personal experience, and the experience of other officers. After 20 years on the street, and 18 of them as an instructor, SWAT Team leader and trainer, I am of the opinion the street officer in the 1970s to today's street officer, didn't need a new weapon. He needed more disciplined training, and more ammo to practice with.
As for your carry at the present in 45acp. I would as a civilian consider myself well armed with the 45 acp given it's record. I will also say as once addicted 1911 man, that today there are far more reliable platforms in that caliber. As a Glock armorer and past builder of some very nice, and reliable 1911s, I would choose the Glock pending and imminent fight. Not because of round capcity but, because of reliability, and I don't really care whom built the 1911.jmo

[bilmac]

The Fackler report came out many years ago, before everybody started carrying autos. It used a huge data base to derive it's statistics, and the Federal 125 gr 357 was far and away the best manstopper. It had something like a 97% success rate for one shot stops. There were a huge number of shootings analysed for just this one load. Second best manstopper was the Remington 125 gr 357 with well over 90% one shot stops. Most of the other top ratings went to the 357 in other loadings. I don't remember how other calibers fared in the report, I was carrying a 357 so I didn't particularly care, but I know the best other caliber didn't compare very well.

I can't understand why the argument still goes on about the best manstopper, 97% is nigh on perfect guys, how can you beat that. Looking at the size of the hole in the barrel and declaring it better is not exactly a real test.

[GH1]

There's been much discussion about .45, .357, and 9mm rounds, but  does anyone have any real world experience with the .38 Special? I know that was standard police issue for a long time.
GH1

[Mikey]

The standard 38 Spl 158 gn round nose lead slug will shoot through most Asian, Latin/South American and North American men, it just doesn't expand much or cause immediately incapacitating or seriously disabling damage unless it goes through and hits the spine or the heart.  The one enhancement that improved its performance was making the same slug into a semi-wadcutter. 

The same semi-wadcutter in the 357 was hitting people half a block away after it had already shot through the bad guy but unless the bullet was placed right, which is very difficult to do under stress, a more violently incapacitating bullet was found to be necessary and hence the Super Vel 125 gn hollowpoint and then others became preferred. 

The problem for most autos is that they were designed to run on ball ammo which has the same incapacitating ability as a lead round nose but current hollowpoints have enhanced performance in those calibers as well but I believe that if these semi-autos can run on semi-wadcutters the performance could be even better. 

But, as the Boss said, if I knew that going somewhere would get me involved in a gunfight, I would stay home.  Do I feel undergunned with either a 38 snubnose or 380 in my pocket - no.  If I believed that the 3 or 4 men who just exited a car in my driveway and approached my door with hands concealed might be home invaders, the pistol would be in my back pocket and the 12 gauge would be pointed at the door.  No matter what you use or are forced into using, shot placement is the issue and you just need to practice, practice and practice some more.  jmtcw.

[williamlayton]

The benefit of a heavy gun is it is also a better club.
I just steady a heavy gun better.
Blessings

[Mohawk]

As bad a rap as the .38 LRN has I have seen it work quite well. Center mass through the septum is rarely anemic with anything. Then again, the 125 .357 approaches deer rifle damage at least to a point.

[LocnLod]

Thanks for the insight Dee.  Like you said bullet configuration, I bet the soft nose of the .357 SJHP conformed to the angle of the autoglass allowing it to penetrate in a closer to straight line rather than the hard copper deflecting a little.  If I remember correctly Federal had released a line of "tactical" for police autopistol loads with a softer than normal lead nose section.

[Hit or Miss]

I choose a gun (LCP) I can keep with me 100% of the time.  Am I undergunned?  Yes, but I feel comfortable with my choice.  At other times I carry an XD in .40 and the LCP.  It depends on the NPE's I'm going to encounter with whatever activities are going on at the time.  I keep my trigger skills sharp by shooting thousands of rounds each year in our combat matches and I'm very confident of being able to put the rounds where they belong.  I'm not overly sold on the 9mm as a defensive round but.....it's better than nothing!  I'm also a firm believer in "shoot until the threat stops" I'll pull that trigger until that happens.

If the good Lord is willing I'll never have to find out for myself whether I made the wrong choice in guns.

[Mike in Virginia]

I'm not sure about that over penetration factor mentioned above.  I'm sure some cartridges are just too much of a good thing.  But, on the other hand, too much penetration would be the least of my worries if I absolutely had to shoot.  I suppose it's a factor that might be considered before the fact.

I'm also uncertain about the magical properties of the beloved 125 grn. .357 Magnum.  I don't think it's the best we can do as far as what we're looking for in a one shot stop. 

Consider this:  A 30-06 in the chest at any range and the game is over.  You can't say that about any pistol/revolver round.  The .357 rounds we buy today are not the same as those originally brought out--those rounds that needed the frame of a Model 27 or 28 to contain it.  The Model 19, my favorite revolver of all time, could not handle the blast of that dear cartridge.  I wore one out, actually shot it lose, in the early 70's, when a .357M cartridge was not much like the ones we buy today.   

You can still get them at specialty places, like Double Tap, who sells a 125 grn. jhp that develops 1600 fps.  I don't think we'd shoot many of those thru a J frame before the gun came apart.  But even considering the power of a load like that, it still is not the best we can do. 

Think about that 30-06 for a minute.  The military rounds produced for that gun weighed about 147 grains, the same as a 9mm pistol bullet, but you can't compare the two in stopping power.  Yes, we know how critical bullet placement is from any handgun, but one shot from a high power rifle into the torso of a human puts him down then and there.  Not so with a 9mm or the highly regarded .357.  A person CAN stand and fight after being hit through the lungs, stomach and even heart, because the SHOCK is all but absent compared to a rifle round.  That is the very reason shot placement from a handgun is critical, but even so, unless spine or brain is damaged, the danger is not always or even seldom eliminated with one shot from a handgun. 

A 2" .38 (especially the old Colts) are works of art.  They feel right, they are beautiful, and I like carrying one, but I don't fool myself about their limitations.  We can't carry the 30-06, but we can carry something that posseses more energy that a .38 or .357. 

If your favorite person is facing death, and it's up to you to cancel the threat with a handgun, you want the most energy on the bad guy's torso as you can possibly put there.  I don't think  the colected data of prejudiced individuals can tell us what the hardest hitting caliber is.  To me, it's comon sense.  The biggest bullet with the maximum velocity is what I'd want if my favorite person needed saving.

One more point and I'll shut up.  It's no big deal in the light of the thousands of other factors that can take us off the earth.  If I survived a career of dealing with bad guys and strangers and didn't get hurt and never had to shoot at someone, I don't think I'll have to worry about what gun I carry.  The probability of having to shoot a person as a civilian minding his own business, is very very low.