Author Topic: Hornady's 250 gr. 45/70 round (Read 4892 times)

captpaul · « **on:** February 04, 2011, 04:15:06 AM »

I see that Hornady is offering a 250 gr. 45/70 round made of gilding metal instead of lead. Looks similar to their FTX round complete with plastic tip, but non lead.
They are not publishing any ballistic info yet. Does anyone have any ballistic info on this round?
Can it be better than the FTX? Five shots, five deer with the BC.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** February 04, 2011, 04:42:09 AM »

I can't imagine it would have a better BC than a 325gr FTX, and if you're going to spend the money on a premium bullet like the Monoflex which appears to be a GMX with a flex tip, the Barnes 300gr TTSX would be the way to go which has a .236 BC compared to .230 of the FTX, and works at impact velocities of 1000fps and up. This would be from a handloaders view point tho, I think the Monflex is only available in ammo, at least for a while. But if you only shoot factory ammo, my point doesn't really apply unless someone offers the TTSX in factory ammo.

Tim

http://www.hornady.com/store/45-70-Government-250-GR-MONOFLEX/

http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/rifle/tipped-tsx-bullet/

gcrank1 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 04, 2011, 09:32:38 AM »

The tale of 'express cartridges' through the years (ie, lighter for bore bullets at faster velo than the original loading) has not been particularly good. Even though it has a pretty tip you will lose BC and SD, that is, your longer range capabilities and weight for penetration.
It looks to me like you would take the 45-70 and turn it into 'something less'.

OSOK · « **Reply #3 on:** February 04, 2011, 10:23:01 AM »

I got to watch the Hornady rep's do a balistics gel shoot last spring. If the new .45-70 bullet performs anything like the GMX in .308, penetration won't be an issue!
But, like gcrank1 said, the trajectory will still suffer.
It will probably sell like wildfire because of the muzzle velocities they will be able to print on the box. I am a big fan of Hornady products, but this round seems like it is just too high tech to feed to an old timer like my BC...it might upset her constitution!

goofyoldfart · « **Reply #4 on:** February 07, 2011, 01:11:00 PM »

Geeezz guys: I wish you all would stop posting all those beautiful pretty pictures of those big beautiful fat and sexy 45-70 rounds. I really want one and I'm saving my money as I can budget so I can get one too. those pictures just tear at my soul.

God Bless to all.

goofyoldfart. P.S. I'll get one yet.

P.S.S. TIM--your not helping!!!!

(got any more)

gendoc · « **Reply #5 on:** February 07, 2011, 02:09:57 PM »

hey ol'fart.... jus get ya sum them rem 300gr sjhp's.....ain't much better fer tha bang-flop
affect !!! them purdy bullets are purdy but ya know how fine look'n wimmins can fool ya

quickdtoo · « **Reply #6 on:** February 07, 2011, 03:17:46 PM »

Quote from: goofyoldfart on February 07, 2011, 01:11:00 PM

Geeezz guys: I wish you all would stop posting all those beautiful pretty pictures of those big beautiful fat and sexy 45-70 rounds. I really want one and I'm saving my money as I can budget so I can get one too. those pictures just tear at my soul. God Bless to all.

goofyoldfart. P.S. I'll get one yet.
P.S.S. TIM--your not helping!!!! (got any more)

Everyone needs at least one 45-70, maybe the SS Ultra Hunter 45-70 300gr TSX range results will do you in!!

Tim

goofyoldfart · « **Reply #7 on:** March 17, 2011, 11:44:41 AM »

Darn Tim : I shoulda auter knowed that you'd have more to show. For me it's a toss up for the 2nd handi between a 20" 45-70 or a .45 long colt that can be reamed ( what do they call the next size up in .45-- a .45 maxi?) bigger. Or a 357maggie to ream to maxie. If my sisters' estate check comes in it'll be a no brainer-- all three

God Bless you and yours.

Goofy

ETA you ain't making any easier, Buster

revbc · « **Reply #8 on:** March 17, 2011, 12:19:44 PM »

GOF,

Maybe a little load development will help you with the pain you are suffering from.............or will it add to the pain?

keith44 · « **Reply #9 on:** March 17, 2011, 04:16:53 PM »

Maybe I see things differently than most do, but trying to make something into something it was never intended to be is just a bad plan. The .45-70 is not a flat shooting rifle, it is not designed for small quantities of powder, and if you really want me to get on a soap box it was never intended to fire anything but lead bullets (not even jacketed bullets) By the same token muzzle loaders which this grand old round directly displaced were also designed for lead only bullets. Yes Hornady will likely sell a boat load of these, and for deer they will work. I would advise everyone not to try bear, nor boar with these as I believe penetration would be marginal.

Keith

bikerbeans · « **Reply #10 on:** March 18, 2011, 06:37:37 AM »

G-O-F,

I believe the 45-70 is just a training cartridge to allow you to slowly workup to the 45-120.

I suggest you go straight to the real 45 caliber offering.

45-120 NE

405 grn Rem SP - 2,550 FPS
350 grn Hornady RN - 2,634 FPS

BB

keith44 · « **Reply #11 on:** March 18, 2011, 04:25:18 PM »

if I do ever go up on case size it'll be for the .450 BP Express 3 1/2 inch.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #12 on:** March 18, 2011, 06:21:25 PM »

Quote from: keith44 on March 18, 2011, 04:25:18 PM

if I do ever go up on case size it'll be for the .450 BP Express 3 1/2 inch.

Tisk tisk...

Ya just can't learn some folks nuthin can ya Tom.

keith44 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 18, 2011, 06:29:39 PM »

the

should tell all

bikerbeans · « **Reply #14 on:** March 19, 2011, 03:08:50 AM »

Quote from: AtlLaw on March 18, 2011, 06:21:25 PM

Quote from: keith44 on March 18, 2011, 04:25:18 PM
if I do ever go up on case size it'll be for the .450 BP Express 3 1/2 inch.

Tisk tisk... Ya just can't learn some folks nuthin can ya Tom.

Richard,

I think gcrank has found another friend.

BB

AtlLaw · « **Reply #15 on:** March 19, 2011, 05:52:15 AM »

Quote from: keith44 on March 18, 2011, 06:29:39 PM

the should tell all

AH HA! you was just funnin! well that's a relief! All thinkin men know the 45-120-500 is the quintessential .458!

'course, if you'd a said 50-140 I woulda been right there with you!

AtlLaw · « **Reply #16 on:** March 19, 2011, 06:03:34 AM »

Sorry I got a little off topic with my prior posts...

Although I think, as if anybody cares what I think, anything under 400 gr. is light for a 458 (rifle) caliber, Tim has just about got me convinced to try that 300 gr. TTSX! Just for grins donchaknow...

Can't see any need for a 250 gr. 458 though... $:-\$ Kinda like a wanting to use a 110 gr. carbine bullet in a 30-06 for deer hunting; why?

gcrank1 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 19, 2011, 09:22:36 AM »

Just cut to the chase and join the .577 Club; the smallbores are nice, but..........

keith44 · « **Reply #18 on:** March 19, 2011, 11:03:00 AM »

Would like to find a servicable .577 Sneider (sp?) and a .450/.400 double that I could afford. Oh well one day the stars will align and I'll have those and the others I've desired over the years.

bikerbeans · « **Reply #19 on:** March 19, 2011, 12:50:52 PM »

Quote from: keith44 on March 19, 2011, 11:03:00 AM

Would like to find a servicable .577 Sneider (sp?) and a .450/.400 double that I could afford. Oh well one day the stars will align and I'll have those and the others I've desired over the years.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #20 on:** March 19, 2011, 02:21:34 PM »

Generally spelled Snider, though I have seen Snyder. It is the 'little .577'; the big one is the
.577 Nitro Express ( Col. Cooper commented that he hesitated to say that,"any lady who could shoot one well was no lady", IIRC), a 750gr. bullet at 2050fps generating over 7000ft lbs.

keith44 · « **Reply #21 on:** March 19, 2011, 04:25:03 PM »

Hunting in Africa...A 90 pound Englishman picks up a 12 pound rifle and shoots a 12,000 pound Elephant... The winner is determined by who stands up first

The "Big" .577 would likely be too much for me to really enjoy, as I am only 5'9" and weigh in at 160#.

I'm convinced I'd do my best imitation of...of...(@$#$%@#$) can't recall the name) the African hunter who took the 2 bore rifle named baby after elephant. I'll find the story and re-tell it if you don't re-call either.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #22 on:** March 19, 2011, 05:28:29 PM »

I am entertained by such tales; with apologies to the O.P. for 'jacking this thread, we should start a new one. We are way beyond the 250gr. x .458!
On that note though, I think it would be a 100yd. limit; not unlike a .44 or .45 cal handgun cartridge in a rifle in terms of terminal ballistics, I should think. I believe last deer season we had at least one report, maybe two(?) of bullet 'blow-up' and shallow wound, on an otherwise killing hit, with a 'light weight bullet' (but I dont remember which one, a 300gr. maybe?).

keith44 · « **Reply #23 on:** March 19, 2011, 05:44:43 PM »

Hmmm, yes we have strayed away from topic. Light Jacketed bullets, guilded or cintered metal construction

Lead projectile, of full caliber diameter, has done a dandy job for quite a number of years. I see no reason to re-invent the wheel, nor the bullet
Thank you

just my version of the truth about new and improved anything. Early jacketed bullets would not open reliably on thin skinned critters (like deer) and so to impress those who could care less about the physics or any ballictic science the jsckets were thinned to the point that if a deer is shot at too close range the bullet's integrety fails and the results are a shallow wound. The deer then turns (or gets up) and runs, hunter X fires a second shot, this time the distance is far enough that the bullet velocity has slowed to withindesign parameters, but just barely. Bang, deer drops, hunter happy, hunter skins deer, and decides the first shot just missed, and all the damage is from the one fatal shot. That's my version anyway.

goofyoldfart · « **Reply #24 on:** March 29, 2011, 04:52:31 AM »

Revbc : you and Tim are not really helping, you know.

Got to admit, though, those are some good groups.

BikerBeans: Look,fella, I'm already a disabled Vet.

I really don't need to be traumatized by something like that. I may be " slightly plump" but I'm only 5" 9' or so, and triggering that kinda round would probably have me spinning around like a center hit bowling pin.

. Due to the air crashes in choppers and the land mines in tanks and apc's, I have a bum back and shoulder joints--so I have to be a wussie and shoot light. I have to admire and respect those that can shoot the shoulder fired artillery pieces!

. sorry to take so long in these replies , but I have been busy building and refurbishing computers for the neighborhood. They are finally giving me time to play with my own

God Bless to all.

goofy aka GOF.

P.S. I AM going to have a 45-70 somehow, somewhen no matter what. I can alway load her down to pussycat levels.
P.S.S. Gendoc---when it comes to fine lookin wimmen , You just have to nibble and caress a little more.

spartacus1239 · « **Reply #25 on:** March 29, 2011, 04:46:27 PM »

Great read. All I can say is I just got my first 45-70 barrel for my Encore.... Plan on loading every size bullet I can to see which one is right for me and my equipment. If it ends up being a lighter bullet so be it... at 250 Gr. on up NONE of them are anything to sneeze at!

LONGTOM · « **Reply #26 on:** March 29, 2011, 06:38:36 PM »

I must not be getting something here.
If a 45cal 200gr sabot bullet in a MZ backed by 100gr of BP will kill cleanly out to 200yds (which it has for me 9 times in the past 2 years) then why wouldn't a 250gr 45cal do it in a 45-70?
I know my 45-70 300gr HPs in factory ammo has done it from 25yds out to a tad over 300yds.
Can't see any reason the 250s wouldn't do the same as long as the gun will shoot them accurately.

LONGTOM

keith44 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 29, 2011, 10:09:55 PM »

Longtom (aka Daniel Boone's rifle

), it is my opinion, that as long as the distance is not too close, and velocity not too high, they would work. On the other hand, why do we need ever lighter and more exotic bullets for a rifle cartridge that is well over 100 years old? Personally for muzzleloaders I much prefer larger bore, and roundball projectiles, unless after small game, then the .32 or .36 gets the nod. The biggest problem I have with any of the more modern designs is they are designed within very narrow parameters. They open too readily for my taste, and if less than perfect conditions are encountered the bullets fail more than the plain old lead bullets and early jacketed bullets. The average hunter of today is far too reliant on gimicks and has too little skill to even compare to the hunters who I walked with in my youth.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #28 on:** March 30, 2011, 04:09:24 AM »

I wish I could remember the particulars from the deer hunt posts this last season regarding apparent bullet jacket failure in 45-70 loads. I had hoped one of the chaps would involved would have come on.
It isnt a new phenom at all, weve read about it for years, but for new bullets to fail in this intended purpose is not encouraging.
For reloaders with a favorite proven bullet, go for it. I like lead and let the momentum do the work.

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #29 on:** March 30, 2011, 05:32:16 AM »

Just for info, e-mail from Hornady says that the B/C for the Monoflex bullet is .155

The 300 Hornady H.P is .197

The applications for this slug are very limited; no lead areas, etc. I'm sure that it will penetrate pretty well as long as velocity can be maintained. This thing should fly like the .452 240 gr XTP, which would not be my first choice for long range shooting.