Author Topic: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?  (Read 13951 times)

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Offline teamnelson

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #120 on: February 14, 2011, 01:33:15 PM »
Its seems like everyone wants a collective understanding, when at best our founders created a system that pits strong entities against each other. State vs Church vs Corporations; People vs Government; Executive vs Legislative vs Judicial. These are the elaborate checks and balances intentionally institutionalized because it solves a fundamental problem - the impact of a selfish human.

If you could establish a perfect system of government, you would need a perfect person in charge. And even with the great system we were given (not saying we have) it is very much dependent on individuals acting unselfishly.

Should we all want to help our fellow man in their time of need? Sure. Can you force me to do that? No. Should you make the system so constraining that I can not act in any other way other than what you have legislated is correct? Absolutely not. All you can do is preserve that system of check and balances that pits the selfishness of corporations against the selfishness of the government against the selfishness of the people, and allows total free acces and influence by the voices of morality and reason. Our government was not designed to give the people anything, but rather to protect them from what they were afraid of - the government. And its in that umbrella of protection that good people will do the right thing for their fellow man.

We've got to, as a nation, recapture our prinicpled ideals and get away from this "whatever works" ideology.
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Offline oldandslow

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #121 on: February 15, 2011, 04:11:06 AM »
I just sat here and read all five pages. I have drawn two conclusions from this. First is that I am very glad that several of you have no say in health care. The second is that no one posting about Exxon-Mobil can spell it correctly.  ::)

Offline teamnelson

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #122 on: February 15, 2011, 08:22:39 AM »
So,,,,if you don't strive to encompass The Logos, those that can and entrusted to do so, in our governmnet's mechinations; then what do you get by default?
..TM7

You get what you had already: Darkness. John 3:19, "the light has come into the world, and people loved [agape'd] the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil."
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Offline Mohawk

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #123 on: February 15, 2011, 12:34:22 PM »
Health care will never be solved. For instance.... My neighbor is a "Disabled Vet". Yet he was "able" enough to burglarize a home and be sent to prison. Able enough to walk to the store to supply his alcohol habit, and still be unruly about the VA dental benefits. Hasn't worked in 30 yrs. Brags about it. I work with hundreds of disabled vets. They do work hard, pay their way, and don't even apply for the handicapped parking placard. Those are real heroes. My neighbor, well, he's just a tax payer sponge. He thinks its funny to pay his parole payment the same day he gets his disability check. But God forbit we dishonor a vet!....... This vet is dishonoring his country. Playing the system for the $ and the taxpayer for the fool. Oh, he doesn't care for me much. I told him if he brings his dope(paid for with our taxes) near my driveway again I would zoom him. Well folks, this is what our tax dollars are paying for!!!

Offline scootrd

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #124 on: February 16, 2011, 07:32:29 AM »
Guess I am in the other camp on this one  -  I like the  Play Or Pay mandate under the new HC.
I like the fact it's a Tax for those that choose not to sign up,  young , old,  illegal,  or otherwise.
I don't care if it's Fed or state or hospital or any other way enforced.

You want services to be there when you need 'em start sharing the burden and start paying into the system. I only wish the fines would be stiffer.

I'm tired of seeing my premiums go up year after year to cover the uninsured.

-  JMHO




Remnds me of a news clip I saw a while back , a guy had not paid his Rural FD bill. His House caught fire and the FD let it burn . Although I may not have agreed (personally I feel they should have extinguished the fire and sent him a bill). I cant fault the FD for doing what they did. Services cost money. And those sevices are there to support those that pay to keep them operating.

Just my narrow minded opinion I guess
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #125 on: February 16, 2011, 08:29:09 AM »
I'm tired of seeing my premiums go up year after year to cover the uninsured.

Amen! I once dropped out of a self-insured HC program for pastors because the premiums were based on coverage for a population that is mostly obese, which isn't me and was too expensive for me to afford to cover my family. I went a different direction at the time, and now I get good ol' military HC. But I agree with your concern - just disagree with the solution.

My idea of play or pay goes like this - if you won't Play (as in get HC insurance) you will Pay cash at the door for services, or Pay in the form of no services at all. That way our HC premiums will not have to factor the uninsured.

And for those with a moral dilemma (what you mean we would deny HC to those that cannot afford it?) there is the charitable/non-profit solution.

No need for government involvement at all. Everybody has care, and your premiums come down.
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Offline Junior1942

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #126 on: February 16, 2011, 11:18:22 AM »
>And for those with a moral dilemma (what you mean we would deny HC to those that cannot afford it?) there is the charitable/non-profit solution.

TN, that is so farfetched it's almost laughable.  If we taxed churches, maybe we could afford it.  If oil companies paid taxes on all their income and not just 85% of their income, maybe we could afford it.  If we didn't pay farmers not to farm, maybe we could afford it. Etc., etc.

Offline teamnelson

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #127 on: February 16, 2011, 11:53:30 AM »
Junior, Americans gave $309 billion in charitable giving in 2008 - the worst economic year in recent history. The total reported cost of uninsured HC coverage for 2008 was about $80 billion, of which the government covered $42 billion, individuals covered $30 billion, and the rest was covered by the physicians themselves, the hospitals, or community health organizations.

So at most we have say a $50 billion problem to solve. If government would engage in tort reform, and rethink its role in HC with regards to regulation and commissions, it would be very easy to recoup that $50 billion. But even if they didn't, a nation that gave $309 billion to help their neighbors, at a time when they were losing homes, jobs, and retirements were decimated, you're telling me wouldn't give to charitable hospitals to solve a pressing HC option.

They'd rather pay more in taxes, and add multiple trillions onto our ludicrous debt? I think that's more farfetched.
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Offline Junior1942

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #128 on: February 16, 2011, 12:16:23 PM »
> But even if they didn't, a nation that gave $309 billion to help their neighbors, at a time when they were losing homes, jobs, and retirements were decimated, you're telling me wouldn't give to charitable hospitals to solve a pressing HC option.

I'm sure most of that $309 billion went to preacher salaries and church upkeep.  Americans in total MIGHT come up with $50 billion to pay hospital bills for WHITE Americans, but not even $10 billion for BLACK and BROWN Americans and not $309 billion in anyone's wildest dreams.  TN, my 2003 AAA surgery cost ~$250,000.  I think the average baby no-problem costs $5,000.  The average premature baby costs $130,000.

Offline Mohawk

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #129 on: February 16, 2011, 12:25:04 PM »
A. How do you enforce undocumented persons from obtaining HC? They WILL NOT turn them away from care, will never happen. And, being non-citizens that pay zero fed income tax, Pay their way? Really?

Offline gypsyman

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #130 on: February 16, 2011, 12:31:47 PM »
Lets let Walmart take it over. Capitalism at it's best. gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline Junior1942

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #131 on: February 16, 2011, 12:44:17 PM »
A. How do you enforce undocumented persons from obtaining HC? They WILL NOT turn them away from care, will never happen. And, being non-citizens that pay zero fed income tax, Pay their way? Really?
Turning undocumented persons away from US hospitals would be really, really good news to the US tourist industry.  NOT.

Offline Hooker

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #132 on: February 16, 2011, 12:50:16 PM »
I want free market healthcare with no government intervention what so ever.
That way everyone can buy all the healthcare they can afford including the government parasites.

Pat
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #133 on: February 16, 2011, 01:01:53 PM »
Turning undocumented persons away from US hospitals would be really, really good news to the US tourist industry.  NOT.

Tourists are documented, BTW. They receive a tourist visa to enter our country. People who do not receive such documentation are not tourists. There is no correlation between turning undocumented persons away for health care, and tourism.

As to your earlier comment about preacher salaries and church upkeep, you really don't know your numbers. The average preacher salary in the US is under 40K, and that includes housing, insurance, etc. that are commonly included in clergy packages. More than 50% of preachers in the US are bi-vocational, as in work a full-time job in addition to being a preacher - I took a church that paid $150 a month plus a crack house to live in. I worked 60 hours a week 25 miles away so I could feed my family and have insurance. There will be more churches closing their doors in the US in the next 20 years, than will be left open at the end, because of $. Its not a profitable place to work.

The fact is less than $100 billion of that $309 billion number went to anything even remotely faith based.
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Offline billy_56081

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #134 on: February 18, 2011, 03:32:00 AM »
WOW! The communist Chinese government expands health care coverage. Maybe you can get a cheap flight and get you some of that good health care. I'll stick with the Mayo system here while you have some ground up fossil bones.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline scootrd

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #135 on: February 18, 2011, 03:37:48 AM »
WOW! The communist Chinese government expands health care coverage. Maybe you can get a cheap flight and get you some of that good health care. I'll stick with the Mayo system here while you have some ground up fossil bones.

I hear they pay good money for Deer antler $$$  :) $$$

DES MOINES, Iowa — A growing number of Iowans traveling to Minnesota for medical care at the Mayo Clinic have added to the state’s largest health insurer’s costs and contributed to rate increases.

Laura Jackson, a vice president for Wellmark Blue Cross and Blue Shield, said it costs twice as much for care at the Mayo Clinic than at in-state facilities that provide the same services. That’s because Wellmark has more leverage to negotiate cost breaks with Iowa providers who depend on in-state customers than with Mayo, she said.

“We have great physicians who provide quality care at low cost right here in Iowa,” Jackson said.

Wellmark provides coverage to about 2.1 million people in Iowa and South Dakota. The insurer said it spends more than $125 million a year for care at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester for about 12,000 customers.

“In reality, it’s not a lot of people going to Mayo, but it’s a lot of dollars,” said Michael Fay, a Wellmark vice president.

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Offline teamnelson

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #136 on: February 18, 2011, 07:46:36 AM »
TM7, and you in no way shape or form question China's motive to do so? That seems out of character for you.
And a promise to do something is not doing something, unless you're on the Nobel committee. They're going to spend 80 per person, without raising taxes - that's not a bad chunk of change given the beneficiaries live on less that $2 a day. If the US were able to spend a month's wages per person on everyone in the US to improve HC without raising taxes, I think we'd all be open to listen. But that would require nationalized HC, like China, and standards of care, like China, would mean several on GBO would be dead already, and a few more would not have survived childhood, if allowed to be born. It's a noble gesture, that becomes less significant in light of the context in which its given, which only adds to my skepticism. One of the most deceptive governments in the world ...

My friends who live in rural China fly to HK for all their medical care; the level of care in rural areas, even subsidized, I could probably provide with my bush medical skills - trust me, you don't want that. :D
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Offline billy_56081

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #137 on: February 18, 2011, 10:24:41 AM »
So TM are you going to get an airplane ticket and go to China for health care? You have a heart issue don't you?
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline Cabin4

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #138 on: February 18, 2011, 01:38:02 PM »
China & Health Care. That is an oxy moron. Anyone that would think China provides better socilized HC than the US provides non-socialized HC is off thier rocker. I have been to China, and if I needed HC, I would flee the country immediatly. I would head back to the US and even if I had no insurance, I'd go to a public emergency room over any doctor in China.
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Offline DDZ

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #139 on: February 19, 2011, 02:40:24 AM »
Quote
We have a Reverand commenting on this important Health of Americans topic, also a government employee; and I am wondering from The Logos viewpoint how a proper moral HC system should operate.

I'm guessing that's me you're referring to. I suggested earlier from the Logos perspective that charity is the work of the Church not the State, and always has been. Christ did not lobby Rome to create adequate HC for the impoverished. Instead he gave the parable of the Good Samaritan to his disciples, someone who helped another who required health care. The parable here indicates that it is a personal responsiblity. When the government takes that responsibility away from you, and instead taxes you to provide on your behalf the charity Christ taught, then we are institutionalizing a "theocractic" notion which is not the Kingdom of Heaven principle.

How would a proper moral HC system look?
- The present system needs attention, no denying that. I don't pretend to understand all the issues there, I usually operate more on principle to create limits as to which actions are appropriate. So yes, HC reform from all perspectives to insure that we're not saddling our practitioners with usury and disproportionate malpractice insurance to protect them from quack lawyers. I think legal reform would do a lot to take the burden off the practitioners who by and large did not go into medicine for the money, but out of a genuine desire to help people. Sounds like a moral bunch to me, lets give them the benefit of the doubt - I am speaking of practitioners. The collateral business in pharmacology, etc. are in fact in it to make $. I don't fault them there, but I expect them to play on the same field as everyone else and get no special treatment by Govt.
- Of the uninsured we can first divide them into citizens, and non-citizens. Government is only accountable to/for its ctizenry, so any action it takes in entitlements must be restricted to that. But I see no need for their involvement.
- Of the uninsured citizenry, we can divide them into those with access to any form of HC insurance, and those that do not. According to the Congressional statistics used in this legistlation, 85% of uninsured citizens have access to a HC plan through work. This includes those who have lost their jobs who are offered extended coverage with severance, or COBRA, or some other means. That leaves 15% of the uninsured citizenry without access to a HC insurance plan.
- My solution to the 15% (and probably even a good portion of the non-citizens who might need emergency care) is to free up the non-profit, not-for-profit, charitable (faith based our otherwise) to engage in medical provision. Increase the cap on charitable donations for individuals and corporations, specifically to US based and US operating non-profits. Given the huge outpouring of private and corporate giving to Haiti, et al, even during a recession, I have faith in my fellow American that we can take care of those 15% adequately, and perhaps even with a little more personal concern.

I believe that is in keeping both with the moral mandate to love our neighbors as ourselves, and with those rights endowed by our Creator from which the liberties protected by the Constitution arise.

Lots of ideas, but the problem is most of them contain government involvement. The best answer to HC is TN's idea of people taking care of people. Not Government taking care of people. People need to get rid of the idea, that we need government to take care of us. Our government has proven over and over again that they only make things worse, yet most think that taxes and government is the answer. Gee, what would us stupid saps ever do without government telling us how to do it.
 As government gets more and more involved in HC, you can bet the ranch that HC will be downgraded, become more limited, and more expensive. Of coarse the people not paying for HC will not care at all what it costs. Kind of the way it is now. 
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Offline Cabin4

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #140 on: February 19, 2011, 03:51:22 AM »
China & Health Care. That is an oxy moron. Anyone that would think China provides better socilized HC than the US provides non-socialized HC is off thier rocker. I have been to China, and if I needed HC, I would flee the country immediatly. I would head back to the US and even if I had no insurance, I'd go to a public emergency room over any doctor in China.
.
Nobody said that at all...that's free non-association like Billy practices. What I reported was China has seen fit to expand access and create more HC for their people, without alot of politricry. This will apparently be done along the lines of their social-economic system. Nobody is comparing who's HC is better or has more high-tech, or gee-whiz stuff. You've been to China so I reckon you see the need for them upgrading their HC. I see the need for upgrading our HC,,,not holding a status quo, or worse yet downgrading and limiting HC access here, or making the system impossible to understand.

..TM7
.

I never said you did that compare TM. I was simply stating an opinion of someone who would compare.

And of course China can move forward on this without alot of politics. Thats becasue its a communist country. The People's opinion means very little.
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Offline Mohawk

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #141 on: February 20, 2011, 08:51:04 AM »
China? Communist nations love to dangle the carrot in front of the horse. That's how they remain in power. "Things will be great!". Their latest military accomplishment was a Top Gun movie scene, so I read. And now they have health care solved. They always have a plan but forget to report the result of execution. Formulate a plan, make it public, and when it fails just sweep it under the rug. Aint nobody gonna sue or question it due to life in prison. Welcome to Communism.

Offline squirrellluck

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #142 on: February 20, 2011, 12:45:57 PM »
The government should do what people with common sense do when they are broke. Not spend money they don't have. Health care is screwed up no argument but the HC bill is screwed up too. Face it we are broke and we can't fix anything til we fix that! As far as an answer I think TN is as close as I have read. And before someone hollers about the poor uninsured I am one. So if you are concerned about the less fortunate health... pick a charity and put you money where your mouth is. Do you research and find the one that addresses health and welfare in your area and give.

Offline scootrd

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #143 on: February 22, 2011, 11:15:01 AM »
So if you are concerned about the less fortunate health... pick a charity and put you money where your mouth is. Do you research and find the one that addresses health and welfare in your area and give.

Thats all well and good , and yes charitable contributions are nice , but that's in addition too. Cahrity is not going to curb the cost of the uninsured Burden That we all carry through the cost of ever increasing premiums. Sorry I'm still in the camp of you play you pay. and since we all need HC , we all need to play and share the cost however it eventually is implemented.)  If you don't pay for your own  -  I'm all for your taxed. 

Whats the cost of a bypass nowdays?  Dont think charitable contributions are going to pay the uninsured costs on that alone.
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Offline beerbelly

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #144 on: February 22, 2011, 11:23:07 AM »
Government health care is the answer! I saw on TV today government health in Canada at work. The board ordered a family to let their kid die! To stop trying to keep him alive! I guess he was running up the cost of government health care! This is the care the liberals are forcing on you!

Offline scootrd

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #145 on: February 22, 2011, 11:52:50 AM »
Government health care is the answer! I saw on TV today government health in Canada at work. The board ordered a family to let their kid die! To stop trying to keep him alive! I guess he was running up the cost of government health care! This is the care the liberals are forcing on you!

I live 30 minutes south of the Canadian border , and despite the crud you hear the uniformed tout , Canada has very good Healthcare. I have many many family and friends that live in Canada and their HC is just fine. Perhaps some of our Canadian Neighbors on this website can chime in with the real facts for ya BB. 

And just for Reference Canada's HC is not socialized, they are under a single-payer insurance  system. There is a distinct difference. There are Pro's and Cons to the system , However all Canadians at least have access to basic level of coverage, which is more than I can say under our current system.
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Offline Cabin4

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #146 on: February 22, 2011, 12:03:42 PM »
The Canadian system also is costing the tax payer an arm & a leg. Interesting article written in 2004 by a Canadian. Back then, they were saying the Canadian system is broke. Its only gotten worse and more costly.
http://www.pierrelemieux.org/artbroken.html

In any case, it really does not matter to me. Obamacare is illegal and should be dropped.
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Offline scootrd

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #147 on: February 22, 2011, 12:14:11 PM »
C4 , here's a cut and paste (quoting 2008 costs) by a contributor who doesn't have an Ax to grind. As I said there are pro's and Con's to every system.

The province does charge a small monthly premium (ours is $108/month for a family of four) for the basic coverage. However, most people never even have to write that check: almost all employers pick up the tab for their employees’ premiums as part of the standard benefits package; and the province covers it for people on public assistance or disability.

“The basics” covered by this plan include 100% of all doctor’s fees, ambulance fares, tests, and everything that happens in a hospital — in other words, the really big-ticket items that routinely drive American families into bankruptcy. In BC, it doesn’t include “extras” like medical equipment, prescriptions, physical therapy or chiropractic care, dental, vision, and so on; and if you want a private or semi-private room with TV and phone, that costs extra (about what you’d pay for a room in a middling hotel). That other stuff does add up; but it’s far easier to afford if you’re not having to cover the big expenses, too. Furthermore: you can deduct any out-of-pocket health expenses you do have to pay off your income taxes. And, as every American knows by now, drugs aren’t nearly as expensive here, either.

Filling the gap between the basics and the extras is the job of the country’s remaining private health insurers. Since they’re off the hook for the ruinously expensive big-ticket items that can put their own profits at risk, the insurance companies make a tidy business out of offering inexpensive policies that cover all those smaller, more predictable expenses. Top-quality add-on policies typically run in the ballpark of $75 per person in a family per month — about $300 for a family of four — if you’re stuck buying an individual plan. Group plans are cheap enough that even small employers can afford to offer them as a routine benefit. An average working Canadian with employer-paid basic care and supplemental insurance gets free coverage equal to the best policies now only offered at a few of America’s largest corporations. And that employer is probably only paying a couple hundred dollars a month to provide that benefit.
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It always cracks me up when you here the Drugs are not safe etc.. Just American lobbyists propaganda. We have been using Canadian Drugs for years. Exact same as in US. about half of my family has had lasik eye surgery in Canada because it was so much less expensive.

I love the folks that try and invoke the fear factor when  speaking about Canadian HC, usually they are arguing from a position of unknowing first hand and only regurgitate what others with an agenda have said.

"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
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Offline billy_56081

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #148 on: February 22, 2011, 12:34:23 PM »
Scoot please don't feed us those lies. I lived in Thief River Falls and the Canadians who had money would come to the clinic thereand pay cash to get basic medical needs. In fact at least half of the clinics business was cash paying Canadians.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline scootrd

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Re: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?
« Reply #149 on: February 22, 2011, 12:57:15 PM »
Scoot please don't feed us those lies. I lived in Thief River Falls and the Canadians who had money would come to the clinic thereand pay cash to get basic medical needs. In fact at least half of the clinics business was cash paying Canadians.

BB..

Call it what you wish .. But I do have facts on my side as well as personal experience. As I said there are Pro's and Cons to every system,  However the Commonwealth Fund, in its annual survey compares the performance of the health care systems in Australia, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, Germany, Canada and the U.S. Its 2007 study found that, although the U.S. system is the most expensive, it consistently under-performs compared to the other countries.

In it's updated 2010 report  findings-

Compared with six other nations—Australia, Canada, Germany, the Netherlands, New Zealand, and the United Kingdom—the U.S. health care system ranks last or next-to-last on five dimensions of a high performance health system: quality, access, efficiency, equity, and healthy lives.

And the costs

 A major difference between the U.S. and the other countries in the study is that the U.S. is the only country without universal health care.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/~/media/Files/Publications/Fund%20Report/2010/Jun/1417_Squires_Intl_Profiles_622.pdf
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant