So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care?

[teamnelson]

scoot, I used to be in corporate management and you're right the costs are high. But we're still getting a fundamental principle ... leave the emotional draw on the table but to the side for a moment, because I'm with you, folks need HC, they need good affordable HC. But is it governments role to make you be charitable. Is it nice for you to do so? Sure, but is it governments role to tell you you have to.

Should I pay higher taxes to meet all the needs of everyone in need through Government agencies, who by the way absorb nearly half or better overhead. I could give the government a dollar, to give the poor man 50 cents and pay a few GS employees to manage the program. Or I could give the poor man a dollar. Which do you think he'd rather have? Which is actually charity, and which is not?

There seems to be an assumption that if you're not willing to pay more taxes you must be uncharitable. On the contrary, if I paid less in taxes I'd have more to give and I give quite a bit out of personal conviction. But in no way would I ever tell you you have to give as much as me, nor would I support a government that would do that for me. Socialism is not the same as genuine social concern.

[Junior1942]

TM, you couldn't get all the good Christian white people in north Louisiana to pay the health care bills of 1,000 dirt-poor black people in north Louisiana, much less for all the dirt-poor black people in north Louisiana. 

[lakota]

TM, you couldn't get all the good Christian white people in north Louisiana to pay the health care bills of 1,000 dirt-poor black people in north Louisiana, much less for all the dirt-poor black people in north Louisiana. 

And why should the white people pay the black peoples' bills? Can you please explain that? Why should someone be responsible for paying someone else's bills? Forcing someone to be responsible for someone else- That is damn near close to slavery. Can you please explain that? And dont give me any of that repairations for slavery crap. No one owes you or anyone else anything.

And you are constantly attacking christian people. what if it were good muslims that refused to pay the medical bills of dirt poor black would that be okay with you?

[teamnelson]

Junior, we don't need them to pay the bills. I suspect they'll give to Shriners, masons, elks, Baptist relief, catholic charities ... who will in turn run nonprofit medical centers where the poor can get care. Happens all the time already, and it'd happen more if the government got out of the way and cleaned up frivolous lawsuits. Check the charitable giving records of big companies; heck check bill gates and Warren buffet. Id bet $ you put a proposal in front of them for a charity hospital you'd get a check.

Of course they're usually prevention oriented, and don't provide elective services.

[scootrd]

And why should the white people pay the black peoples' bills? Can you please explain that? Why should someone be responsible for paying someone else's bills? Forcing someone to be responsible for someone else- That is damn near close to slavery. Can you please explain that? And dont give me any of that repairations for slavery crap. No one owes you or anyone else anything.

I don't disagree and isn't that the whole point  -

Responsible people should not be saddled with higher premiums because of deadbeats , black white purple young old rich poor etc..or otherwise who use the system but don't pay and no one gets a free ride.

That's why I support play or pay.

How Play Or Pay Will Work for the Individual

Every individual with a household income greater than 138% of the poverty level2 will be required to enroll in a healthcare plan with minimum essential coverage or pay a penalty to the IRS. Thus, if the individual plays and enrolls in a qualifying health insurance plan (presumably one offered by their employer or from an exchange), he or she won't have to pay a penalty. Assuming an employer requires their employees to pay 27% of insurance premium costs, the average primary wage earner uses between $2,000 - $4,000 per year of their income for insurance coverage. If that wage earner chooses not to play by refusing to participate in healthcare coverage, the penalty is comparatively small -- from $95 in 2014 to $695 in 2016. It's fair to be concerned that younger and healthy persons will decline to participate, and instead, pay the penalty, until such time as they believe they will actually need such health care coverage.


Side Note : I wonder If those opposed are aware there are two laws from the 1790s  passed by our founding founders themselves that establishes Congress's right to "regulate inactivity"  One even deals with healthcare.

      In July, 1798, Congress passed, and President John Adams signed into law "An Act for the Relief of Sick and Disabled Seamen," authorizing the creation of a marine hospital service, and mandating privately employed sailors to purchase healthcare insurance.

This legislation also created America's first payroll tax, as a ship's owner was required to deduct 20 cents from each sailor's monthly pay and forward those receipts to the service, which in turn provided injured sailors hospital care. Failure to pay or account properly was discouraged by requiring a law violating owner or ship's captain to pay a 100 dollar fine.


Second Militia Act of 1792, which required all men eligible for militia service to outfit themselves with a military style firearm, ammunition, and other equipment, even if such items had to be purchased in the marketplace. Today, individuals are still obligated by federal law to perform other actions, like serve on juries, file tax returns, and register for selective service, among other duties.



I do believe this will be upheld in the higher courts. However I believe the fines should be much higher.  - JMHO

[Cabin4]

Scootrd,
I'm  simply opposed to the continued government intervention in our lives and thier continuing absence of solving the real problems that plague our country.  I firmly believe that the bill is unconstitutional and I challenge you to dig into the CBO numbers & assumptions. CBO only spins what info it is provided. It does not validate the inputs or assumptions. CBO is like a big giant Excel wizard. They are not the experts nor the assumption makers. If you want an analysis to provide a predetermined outcome, just manage the inputs! Manage the assumptions and you can get any result on paper you want.

The heath care bill at best is a band aid to the real issues. Illegal aliens, massive over spending, foreign wars and a loss of good paying jobs are the real problems this country has. Fix the prior, and much of our health care or affordable health care issues are solved. Good jobs have good insurance. Stop the foreign wars and our constant intervention in the worlds affairs will bring us a domestic focus. Stop bailing out corporations and wasteful spending with tax payer money and leave it in the private sector where jobs are created. Close off our boarders to keep out the drain on our entire system. If anyone tells you that these illegal’s are not a drain, then why the heck are the same people fighting to give these people free health care and in-state college tuition rates! What are we doing to reduce our need for foreign oil? Every tanker that docks at port, means millions of dollars transfer out of this country. We have the ability to solve this issue yet due to the incredible influence of the environmental groups, we can’t make any progress. The transfer of wealth and risk of crisis continues.

In the interim, I do believe the government can play a role by getting out of the way. Tort reform and ability to buy insurance across state lines would be an examples. I’m not an expert on health care but my brother is a 30 year practicing medical doctor. His wife is a surgical room nurse with nearly as many years. Both will tell you the health care bill is a disaster and it will do nothing to lower our costs. Those that have insurance are simply going to pay for those that don’t. And we are going to pay more for it to happen.

[Junior1942]

TM, you couldn't get all the good Christian white people in north Louisiana to pay the health care bills of 1,000 dirt-poor black people in north Louisiana, much less for all the dirt-poor black people in north Louisiana. 

And why should the white people pay the black peoples' bills? Can you please explain that? Why should someone be responsible for paying someone else's bills? Forcing someone to be responsible for someone else- That is damn near close to slavery. Can you please explain that? And dont give me any of that repairations for slavery crap. No one owes you or anyone else anything.

And you are constantly attacking christian people. what if it were good muslims that refused to pay the medical bills of dirt poor black would that be okay with you?

It was a "for instance," lakota.  It was NOT a dig at Christians, and it was NOT a call for 1¢ of your tax money to help buy a bottle of antibiotics for a sick black kid.  Your tax money is much better spent on foreign aid.

[magooch]

A good start to fixing our heath-care problems would be to exempt private hospitals from having to admit and provide care for those who are uninsured, or do not have the ability to pay.  That should provide some incentive to those who presently can afford, but choose not to buy insurance.

For those who cannot afford insurance, maybe some type of taxpayer subsidized plans will have to suffice, but the coverage should be only basic.  There should be a complete tax deduction for all health-care premiums as long as they do not include benefits that are extravagant and frivolous.

Health-care savings plans should be merged more prominently with catastrophic insurance plans.  And Medicare should be left the hell alone, because it's working fine for me.  How's that grab ya.

[lakota]

TM, you couldn't get all the good Christian white people in north Louisiana to pay the health care bills of 1,000 dirt-poor black people in north Louisiana, much less for all the dirt-poor black people in north Louisiana. 

And why should the white people pay the black peoples' bills? Can you please explain that? Why should someone be responsible for paying someone else's bills? Forcing someone to be responsible for someone else- That is damn near close to slavery. Can you please explain that? And dont give me any of that repairations for slavery crap. No one owes you or anyone else anything.

And you are constantly attacking christian people. what if it were good muslims that refused to pay the medical bills of dirt poor black would that be okay with you?

It was a "for instance," lakota.  It was NOT a dig at Christians, and it was NOT a call for 1¢ of your tax money to help buy a bottle of antibiotics for a sick black kid.  Your tax money is much better spent on foreign aid.

You twist words and you turn it into a racial issue but you still fail to explain why I have a moral obligation to pay for someone elses healthcare. Oh and I personally dont want one cent spent on foreign aid either.

[lakota]

ANd if all the dollars spent on foreign aid were instead spent here at home a lot of ills could be cured. Oh and your pals Obama and Biden wanted to DOUBLE foriegn aid before the economy tanked

[billy_56081]

What the liberal parasites are unable to comprehend is that unlike them who are slaves to the democratic party by having them steal money from others to hold them in bondage. Most conservatives do not see the republican party as ideal, but feel we have to vote in the lesser of 2 evils. I would hazard an educated guess that most conservatives would like to see spending cuts across the board. Unlike the liberal parasite class who has no concept of where money comes from as they have never earned but only been given. Conservatives understand that money is earned and produced. Ever since the gold standard was done away with money has became more and more worthless. Look at what real money is, take a 1900 silver dollar that was 90 percent silver. In 1900 it had approximately the same buying power as the silver value in it would have today. That 90 percent silver dollar now has a melt value of slightly over 20 dollars. 

[jimster]

Unlike the liberal parasite class who has no concept of where money comes from as they have never earned but only been given. Conservatives understand that money is earned and produced.

agreed.

It seems to boil down to this in the end, for the most part it seems everything liberal needs other people's money, and conservative operations seems to generate and move their own money.  Liberals need congress to confiscate people's money and funnel it to them.  Without it, their operations seem to fail.  Even after getting other peoples money they continue to "run the business" the exact same way, it's just now they don't worry about failing, they are held up by us.  How ironic conservatives wind up supporting what they stand against.

If we could just cut the money off altogether, see who is left standing, we'd be better off. Things should be allowed to fail in America.



 

 

[Pat/Rick]

Hawaii tried medical care for children, (its for the children). It lasted 6 months before that system went bankrupt. Seems that the folks working and paying their childrens health care deductibles figured if it was free for kids, they could save 'em some money. Without that extra cash coming into the system, there wasnt enough help to pay the bills as it were, with that extra influx of kids. One of the administrators was quoted as saying "It wasn't supposed to work like that"! Of course that meant that folks paying, should continue to do so.  What part of socialism don't some folks understand?

+1 jimster! Thats part of what America meant. Being successful by working hard. A guy might not get rich and have bills like everybody else, but he wasn't dieing either. EVERY thing my wife and I have is paid for by labor. We both grew up at the low end of middle class and I a quite a bit lower. In the projects and knowing the welfare man. Dad crushed four vertabrae in a construction accident when I was still in diapers. We worked hard, we did what was our best. NOT by sitting around whining about how poor we were. Why should our labor benefit those who simply don't want to toil?

[chefjeff]

Here's an idea no politician wants to hear about> Any law for insurance that is enacted will have every member of government enrolled in same. At the same level as everyone else.Folks with cush plans would pay tax on the level of cov'g above the norm.

[beerbelly]

Some think that if we are required to buy health insurance the cost will go down. Well that worked really well for auto insurance didn't it? I remember when they were passing the mandatory auto insurance law in Florida. They lied and said in three or four years the cost would drop by a large amount! Go buy some auto insurance in Florida! It is out of site! A few years ago I was living there and the cost of the minimum to be legal was $1200 for a S-10.

[Junior1942]

TM7, you ought to run for congress.  You speak with common sense.

[billy_56081]

TM7, you ought to run for congress.  You speak with common sense.

Jr you made me spit coffee all over the screen. That is the funniest thing I have heard in a coons age. You interested in being his warm up act at the BBQ?

[Cabin4]

Auto insurance is only required by law if you drive your car on public roads and you are only required to have liability insurance.  In addtrion you must have a valid drivers license which is a privilage. This is a state level mandate not a federal mandate. Requiring liability insurance in this scenario is in no way a fair comparison to a federal mandate for health insurance which requirement is: if your breathing, you must buy it. Breathing is not a privilage.

[billy_56081]

Well said C4, obviously you are a little more versed in the constitution. Oh wait our liberal parasites do not follow the constitution.

[Junior1942]

Well said C4, obviously you are a little more versed in the constitution. Oh wait our liberal parasites do not follow the constitution.

I believe you're confused.  Our conservative Nazis do not follow the Constitution.  Didn't King Bush II say, "The Constitution is just a g-d piece of paper"?

[lakota]

Well said C4, obviously you are a little more versed in the constitution. Oh wait our liberal parasites do not follow the constitution.

I believe you're confused.  Our conservative Nazis do not follow the Constitution.  Didn't King Bush II say, "The Constitution is just a g-d piece of paper"?

Well actions speak louder than words and the liberal sludge treats the constitution like a peice of toilet paper each and every day.

[billy_56081]

  . The liberal parasites just don't seem to get it. GW is one of them, he was just the lesser of the liberal parasites to choose from.

[teamnelson]

conservative Nazis

That is an oxymoron. You perhaps do not realize that the Nazis were the Socialist party of Germany.

[magooch]

Well now that some conservatives here have suggested how health-care should be handled, how about the liberals giving their opinion.  Hopefully, they will include how it is to be paid for and where the Constitution mandates it.  I am especially interested in where the Constitution requires free health-care for illegal invaders.

[scootrd]

Well now that some conservatives here have suggested how health-care should be handled, how about the liberals giving their opinion.  Hopefully, they will include how it is to be paid for and where the Constitution mandates it.  I am especially interested in where the Constitution requires free health-care for illegal invaders.

AS I POSTED EARLIER -  as it stands now this is how it will be implemented.  and I agree there should be no free HC. Thats what this HC change was trying to address  -  everyone needs to have skin in the game. 

How Play Or Pay Will Work for the Individual

Every individual with a household income greater than 138% of the poverty level2 will be required to enroll in a healthcare plan with minimum essential coverage or pay a penalty to the IRS. Thus, if the individual plays and enrolls in a qualifying health insurance plan (presumably one offered by their employer or from an exchange), he or she won't have to pay a penalty. Assuming an employer requires their employees to pay 27% of insurance premium costs, the average primary wage earner uses between $2,000 - $4,000 per year of their income for insurance coverage. If that wage earner chooses not to play by refusing to participate in healthcare coverage, the penalty is comparatively small -- from $95 in 2014 to $695 in 2016. It's fair to be concerned that younger and healthy persons will decline to participate, and instead, pay the penalty, until such time as they believe they will actually need such health care coverage.

It will Be interesting what supreme court decides. However both Yale and Harvard have weighed in firmly believing Govt is on solid ground to implement under Interstate Commerce Clause 9read earlier responses) .

[Cabin4]

TM7,

You refer to the “tyranny of corporations” in this discussion about health care. I'll remind you that corporations are the one’s providing the health care as a benefit to their employees. They are the only ones that have done anything to make health care affordable by driving the insurance providers for solutions. The government has institutionalized regulations and law that limit access, raise the cost and dilute the system with the strain of illegal aliens. So who's the real tyranny here?

[teamnelson]

Frankly, for me, I have alot of questions as per The Logos when it comes to making obscene profit off other's misery and health...fair profit I might consider.

.TM7
.

TM7, do you believe that it is appropriate to enact into law, governed by the institutions of men, those teachings of the Logos that cause you to ask these questions? Do you think that institutionalizing those teachings is itself in keeping with those teachings?

Mahalo, Chaps

[Cabin4]

TM,
What choice do they have? They must operate with a prophit so they can grow and hopefully create more jobs. Its a one hand washes the other concept! The government is not washing everyones hands, they simply rob from the one section of the American people and hand it out as political favor with nothing in return. Only government can spread tyranny no matter what you say or how you try to spin it. Just look at what our government has done, and you tell me why we shoudl trust them more than any good business/corporation? I have worked in the copr world for 30 years now, and I see no tyranny from them. It only comes from the sick and disgust that Washington and state governments can dole out. Rising health care costs are not the blame of corporations, its the blame of faulty public policy for decades.

[teamnelson]

TM7, seriously, no guile here. I'm just asking as one follower to another. Do you think the Logos would want us to institutionalize his teachings as our government? I.e. build the city of God, or Calvin's Geneva.

[Cabin4]

Frankly, for me, I have alot of questions as per The Logos when it comes to making obscene profit off other's misery and health...fair profit I might consider.

.TM7
.

TM7, do you believe that it is appropriate to enact into law, governed by the institutions of men, those teachings of the Logos that cause you to ask these questions? Do you think that institutionalizing those teachings is itself in keeping with those teachings?

Mahalo, Chaps

.
Why do you think America was once more prosperous and egalitarian....?

I asked you earlier; what do you have if you keep The Logos out of government on account of technicalities....what do you get by default??
And, therefore, what kind of leadership are you going to grow??  Since religion has gone organized, the way of churches, 501(c) and such...you really don't have a choice. Can The Logos be institutionalized...some might try but.....! In fact, The Logos really doesn't get grafted to governmnet...free people hold governmnet's feet to the fire to do right as governmnet's master,,not the other way around.....Afterall, people are allowed to act collectively on occassion based on survival instinc...it shouldn't all be a death cult. Expect and hope for best,,,not settle for the least master will hand out.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Cabin...the governmnet of the US is a Corporatocracy.. By and For a corporatocracy.....not by and for We the People...hasn't been for along time....although corporate media/education will still tell you it is. If the governmnet was still For and By We the People...things would be a lot different,,, overall people would generally be better off, and not living in fear, threat in somebody's security racket. A corporatocracy is a merger of corporations with governmnet...they become one; operate fascistly and could give two craps about citizens since the corporation has displaced citizens. Insurance corps tradtionally operated not for profit until Reagan unleashed them...the rest is a story of a usury and bondage system, indeed Biblical, profiting on peoples sickness and misery and fear. Since corporations are merged with government..they make the policy...its a revolving door. Exactly how Bush started the bailout scam with the Wall Street government which spilled over into the Obama admin...same ole song and dance....and that Wall St government is still in power, still running the show after they royally screwed things up; and now these same corporocrats have their sights on Health Care...and this time they're literally going to make a killing. Go ahead and worship corps if you want, but I happen to see a third new and better way.

..TM7
.



.
.

TM,
So much of what you’re saying here makes sense to me. Of course corporations are going lobby for what is good for them. I get your point on this. But in the end, public policy is the blame of our government. They are the enablers of allowing everyone to come to the public trot for self interest policy. If Washington enables these things to happen, they are to blame. Washington should say NO and the peoples best interest upheld. Corporations/business do need a forum to put for the their needs and desires which better their ability to compete, prophet & grow. Washington is suppose to moderate this input with what our constitution provides and the interest of productive American citizens, not other countries and not those here illegally.