Author Topic: So...what do "conservatives" think should be done about health care? (Read 13957 times)

45-70.gov · « **Reply #150 on:** February 22, 2011, 12:58:45 PM »

let me make this as simple as i can.........

i would rather see a poor man die from lack of medical care

than to see rich man robbed of his ability to provide for his own family as he sees fit

more than likely the poor man is a victim of his own vices

if the poor man is saved by what was stolen from the rich man
then what oblication do you liberals feel is the bums to reimburse the rich man
can those that get FREE medical care now.....
be forced into work camps to repay their dept to society

of coarse the rich man is free to be generous.....IF HE CHOOSES

scootrd · « **Reply #151 on:** February 22, 2011, 01:05:55 PM »

Quote from: 45-70.gov on February 22, 2011, 12:58:45 PM

let me make this as simple as i can.........

i would rather see a poor man die from lack of medical care

than to see rich man robbed of his ability to provide for his own family as he sees fit

more than likely the poor man is a victim of his own vices

if the poor man is saved by what was stolen from the rich man
then what oblication do you liberals feel is the bums to reimburse the rich man
can those that get FREE medical care now.....
be forced into work camps to repay their dept to society

of coarse the rich man is free to be generous.....IF HE CHOOSES

No one is talking Free anything.
I Happen to support the pay to Play Plan. and since everyone requires HC everyone should pay some level of $$.
If you don't on your own , You will be penalized through a TAX. However this does not also negate the debate regarding a single payer system or Universal HC.

Pat/Rick · « **Reply #152 on:** February 22, 2011, 01:08:05 PM »

To answer the OP question, work for it. Health care is a priveledge, not a right.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #153 on:** February 22, 2011, 02:25:22 PM »

The Canadians were coming and paying cash because they did not want to wait months for an appointment. Don't try to spread these lies it is unbecoming.

scootrd · « **Reply #154 on:** February 22, 2011, 02:50:39 PM »

Quote from: billy_56081 on February 22, 2011, 02:25:22 PM

The Canadians were coming and paying cash because they did not want to wait months for an appointment. Don't try to spread these lies it is unbecoming.

Like I said , no system is perfect .. is there a longer wait for elective HC .. well it depends on the procedure and the Province, The more rural you are , the longer the wait. This is just simple logistics with the number of hospitals in the general area (similar to HC access in any small U.S. Town) In Canada , Just like U.S. if you don't have a primary Care Physician there are 24-hour urgent care clinics.

BB , it is you that speaks from a lack of knowledge and a position of unknowing. But that's ok , you keep digesting those bite size Drive by media sound bites.

BTW - My step dad just needed a hernia operation , We live in a small town right here in good 'ol USA ...Took him10 days to get the operating room scheduled and the surgeon to be free to operate in our small hospital with limited Bed space.

Lost Farmboy · « **Reply #155 on:** February 22, 2011, 03:18:50 PM »

How about the truth? Except for the death panels limiting healthcare for the elderly, I don't see what the unconstitutional Obama Health Tyranny bill has to to with healthcare. It's more about insurance than healthcare. The bill is all about us paying more for less. People are not being denied healthcare for lack of insurance, just ask the illegal aliens.

Start with the truth about sunshine and vitamin D. Many new studies on vitamin D say we could cut cancer rates by 60% just by optimizing vitamin D levels. The studies also claim optimizing vitamin D levels would reduce heart disease, osteoporosis, tooth decay and all infectious diseases. Sunshine is free and the best source of Vitamin D. Tanning salons and supplements are good for winter when sunshine is unavailable. Yes, the truth about vitamin D would be real healthcare reform. It could cut our healthcare cost by 50% or more.

What does the Obama Health Tyranny bill do? It taxes tanning salons in an attempt to put them out of business.

Then we could use a good dose of truth about vaccines, statin drugs, the lipid theory, pesticide residue in our food, fats and carbs.

Then I ask how can a healthcare system that is built on lies and deceit be the best in the world?

45-70.gov · « **Reply #156 on:** February 22, 2011, 03:26:16 PM »

Quote from: scootrd on February 22, 2011, 01:05:55 PM

Quote from: 45-70.gov on February 22, 2011, 12:58:45 PM
let me make this as simple as i can.........

i would rather see a poor man die from lack of medical care

than to see rich man robbed of his ability to provide for his own family as he sees fit

more than likely the poor man is a victim of his own vices

if the poor man is saved by what was stolen from the rich man
then what oblication do you liberals feel is the bums to reimburse the rich man
can those that get FREE medical care now.....
be forced into work camps to repay their dept to society

of coarse the rich man is free to be generous.....IF HE CHOOSES

No one is talking Free anything.
I Happen to support the pay to Play Plan. and since everyone requires HC everyone should pay some level of $$.
If you don't on your own , You will be penalized through a TAX. However this does not also negate the debate regarding a single payer system or Universal HC.

If you don't on your own , You will be penalized through a TAX. However this does not also negate the debate regarding a single payer system or Universal HC.

how about if they don't...they pay cash or are denied bebefits
why is that concept so hard to grasp
why MUST the government step in and manage peoples lives for them

billy_56081 · « **Reply #157 on:** February 22, 2011, 04:56:51 PM »

Ahh Winnepeg aint rural. No need to pass on lies.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #158 on:** February 23, 2011, 03:29:55 AM »

No TM the Canadians were not being reimbursed. I talked to several and they said they could not get timely health care on non emergency procedures. Please stop trying to forward lies.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #159 on:** February 23, 2011, 04:59:58 AM »

Well once again I will stick with first hand experience over "I read it on the internet so it must be true" syndrome.

What I find most disturbing is someone who thinks "the government" is out to get us all in a super secret conspiracy is wanting the government to be in charge of our health care. Call it common sense but something doesn't seem right here?

Cabin4 · « **Reply #160 on:** February 23, 2011, 05:59:02 AM »

Why are Canadians coming accross the boarder to the US for care?

How many Americans go to Canada for health care?

scootrd · « **Reply #161 on:** February 23, 2011, 11:13:00 AM »

Quote from: Cabin4 on February 23, 2011, 05:59:02 AM

Why are Canadians coming accross the boarder to the US for care?

How many Americans go to Canada for health care?

People in my family have gone to Canada for HC . We have had a number of family members obtain Lasik surgery there because the cost was better a few years ago.

Here is a good read -

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Content/Publications/Fund-Reports/2010/Jun/Mirror-Mirror-Update.aspx

We pay on average over 7K per person per year on HC with less bang for the Buck. A large majority of these costs can be attributed to Admin overhead of HC.

and another (overview of other HC systems throughout the world )

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/~/media/Files/Publications/Fund%20Report/2010/Jun/1417_Squires_Intl_Profiles_622.pdf

I'm not pro or con the Canadian system , but I am saying there has to be a better way than the piece meal no system we have in place now.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #162 on:** February 23, 2011, 12:11:23 PM »

How about you utopians immigrate to Canada. Especially the one who hates America. Those of you socialists who want Canadian style health care move to Canada. Don't force your socialism on me. The wealthiest people in the world come to the Mayo clinic here in Minnesota. Why aint they going to you socialists utopian dream land madical clinics in Canada?

scootrd · « **Reply #163 on:** February 23, 2011, 12:47:52 PM »

Quote from: billy_56081 on February 23, 2011, 12:11:23 PM

How about you utopians immigrate to Canada. Especially the one who hates America. Those of you socialists who want Canadian style health care move to Canada. Don't force your socialism on me. The wealthiest people in the world come to the Mayo clinic here in Minnesota. Why aint they going to you socialists utopian dream land madical clinics in Canada?

AGAIN Billy you show how ill informed you are - the Canadian HC system is not a socialist HC system .

In socialized medical systems, the doctors work directly for the state.
In Canada doctors run their own private practices, just like they do in the US.

The only difference is that every doctor deals with one insurer, instead of 150. And that insurer is the provincial government, which is accountable to the legislature and the voters if the quality of coverage is allowed to slide.

The proper term for this is “single-payer insurance.”

teamnelson · « **Reply #164 on:** February 23, 2011, 01:36:31 PM »

Quote from: scootrd on February 23, 2011, 12:47:52 PM

In socialized medical systems, the doctors work directly for the state.
In Canada doctors run their own private practices, just like they do in the US.

The only difference is that every doctor deals with one insurer, instead of 150. And that insurer is the provincial government, which is accountable to the legislature and the voters if the quality of coverage is allowed to slide.

The proper term for this is “single-payer insurance.”

So government control of the HC system in Canada is through their control of the insurance program, is that about right? Does the HC system have any recourse of complaint if they feel like they're not being dealt with fairly by the sole insurance company? How does the distinction you made differ practically from a state run HC system?

billy_56081 · « **Reply #165 on:** February 23, 2011, 01:40:51 PM »

Y'all socialists immigrate to Canada, I'm going to Mayo. ?

Why do the wealthiest people in the world come to America for health care?

? Well socialists?

Cabin4 · « **Reply #166 on:** February 23, 2011, 02:50:19 PM »

Quote from: scootrd on February 23, 2011, 11:13:00 AM

Quote from: Cabin4 on February 23, 2011, 05:59:02 AM
Why are Canadians coming accross the boarder to the US for care?

How many Americans go to Canada for health care?

People in my family have gone to Canada for HC . We have had a number of family members obtain Lasik surgery there because the cost was better a few years ago.

Here is a good read -

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Content/Publications/Fund-Reports/2010/Jun/Mirror-Mirror-Update.aspx

We pay on average over 7K per person per year on HC with less bang for the Buck. A large majority of these costs can be attributed to Admin overhead of HC.

and another (overview of other HC systems throughout the world )

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/~/media/Files/Publications/Fund%20Report/2010/Jun/1417_Squires_Intl_Profiles_622.pdf

I'm not pro or con the Canadian system , but I am saying there has to be a better way than the piece meal no system we have in place now.

This is an apples to oranges comparison. Its comparing these stats of all people in the country for the others (UK, CA, AU,ect) that have mandated HC for all to the USA that has HC for those who pay for it. The USA number is therefore corrupted by those in the US who currently have no HC. So of course they will rate the system poorly. And, yes you have to pay more is the USA per person number to cover for those who use the system but pay nothing into it.

Our quality of care will decline and the cost will rise under obama care for those who pay into the system in order to pay for those who don;t. A lose-lose proposistion for those of us who currently have insurance.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #167 on:** February 24, 2011, 01:41:56 AM »

Why do the wealthiest people in the world come to America for their healthcare? Well socialists got the guts to answer?

guzzijohn · « **Reply #168 on:** February 24, 2011, 03:23:22 AM »

Quote from billy_56081:

Quote

Why do the wealthiest people in the world come to America for their healthcare? Well socialists got the guts to answer?

More and more are going to India, especially if they are paying out of pocket for elective surgeries or whatever.
GuzziJohn

45-70.gov · « **Reply #169 on:** February 24, 2011, 03:35:39 AM »

How About These Stats!

A recent "Investor's Business Daily" article provided very interesting statistics from a survey by the United Nations International Health Organization.

Percentage of men and women who survived a cancer five years after diagnosis:
U.S. 65%
England 46%
Canada 42%

Percentage of patients diagnosed with diabetes who received treatment within six months:
U.S. 93%
England 15%
Canada 43%

Percentage of seniors needing hip replacement who received it within six months:
U.S. 90%
England 15%
Canada 43%

Percentage referred to a medical specialist who see one within one month:
U.S. 77%
England 40%
Canada 43%

Number of MRI scanners (a prime diagnostic tool) per million people:
U.S. 71
England 14
Canada 18

Percentage of seniors (65+), with low income, who say they are in "excellent health":
U.S. 12%
England 2%
Canada 6%

Check this last set of statistics!!

The percentage of each past president's cabinet who had worked in the private business sector prior to their appointment to the cabinet. You know what the private business sector is...a real life business, not a government job. Here are the percentages.

T. Roosevelt.............38%
Taft.............................40%
Wilson ..................52%
Harding.....................49%
Coolidge..................48%
Hoover......................42%
F. Roosevelt.............50%
Truman.....................50%
Eisenhower.............57%
Kennedy...................30%
Johnson...................47%
Nixon........................53%
Ford...........................42%
Carter......................32%
Reagan.....................56%
GH Bush.................51%
Clinton ...................39%
GW Bush.................55%

And the winner is:

Obama...............8%

This helps to explain the incompetence of this administration: only 8% of them have ever worked in private business!

That's right! Only eight percent---the least, by far, of the last 19 presidents! And these people are trying to tell our big corporations how to run their business? They know what's best for GM, Chrysler, Wall Street, and you and me?

How can the president of a major nation and society, the one with the most successful economic system in world history, stand and talk about business when he's never worked for one? Or about jobs when he has never really had one? And when it's the same for 92% of his senior staff and closest advisers? They've spent most of their time in academia, government and/or non-profit jobs or as "community organizers". They should have been in an employment line.

Pass this on. We will NEVER see these facts in the main stream media!

beerbelly · « **Reply #170 on:** February 24, 2011, 04:01:42 AM »

Canadian HC may not be socialists, but it sure is totalitarian! They just OEDERED a family to let their child die!

45-70.gov · « **Reply #171 on:** February 24, 2011, 04:41:27 AM »

Quote from: beerbelly on February 24, 2011, 04:01:42 AM

Canadian HC may not be socialists, but it sure is totalitarian! They just OEDERED a family to let their child die!

i really find that hard to beleive
but i don;t know it not to be true

''ordered to let the child die''
or just refused to pay for treatments
you saying they are forbidden to take the kid to the USA??...assuming the kid can be saved

there are some expensive drugs my insurance WON'T pay for
does tha mean i am refused by the insurance company to take the drugs??
NO....... it just means i have to buy those drugs myself

much confusion is cause by the wording used

Cabin4 · « **Reply #172 on:** February 24, 2011, 06:47:33 AM »

The US has the highest quality HC system in the world. Obamacare is all about reducing the quailty of care I and others get to pay for those who don;t have an insurance policy. Plain & simple. Its just another form of obama's wealth redistribution program.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #173 on:** February 24, 2011, 07:04:00 AM »

I want the Feds out of our lives completely.

Out of health care. (regulate not own or force it on people)

Out of ownership of business like GM. (regulate commerce not own it) (Amtrack, TVA, etc).

Out of moral issues like Abortion (states right)

Release the half of the country (except national parks) they own and sell to Americans. This would allow individuals claim land to live on like in the 1800's. Not foreigners or corporations. This would open up lands for development of natural resources like oil, natural gas, minerals, etc if the indivual owners want to.

beerbelly · « **Reply #174 on:** February 24, 2011, 07:05:14 AM »

45-70, it has been all over the news, they ordered them to let the kid die. The people are trying to get the kid to Detroit to have him treated , the last I heard the Canadian government had not allowed them to do so.

scootrd · « **Reply #175 on:** February 24, 2011, 01:37:30 PM »

Quote from: billy_56081 on February 24, 2011, 01:41:56 AM

Why do the wealthiest people in the world come to America for their healthcare? Well socialists got the guts to answer?

Billy you keep confusing HC with the implementation of a HC SYSTEM.
2 distinct different things. No one is disputing we have some of the best HC in the world right here in the good 'ol USA.
What we are discussing is the HC SYSTEM we should be using to ensure it remains cost effective and reaches as many as possible. REPs , DEMS, Independents hardly ever agree on anything - but one this they all agree on is the present SYSTEM we have in place is unsustainable for us as a nation.

C4:

Quote

Its comparing these stats of all people in the country for the others (UK, CA, AU,ect) that have mandated HC for all to the USA that has HC for those who pay for it. The USA number is therefore corrupted by those in the US who currently have no HC. So of course they will rate the system poorly. And, yes you have to pay more is the USA per person number to cover for those who use the system but pay nothing into it.

C4 ,
Yes the numbers are skewed, I agree ...That's the whole point. Our present system is ineffective. the study seems to support Single payer type systems seem to garner more effective processes to deliver quality HC at lower costs.

I don't know the correct approach , But I am not closed minded enough not to want to consider anything than what we have now. Our HC system is costly , extremely high overhead, and doesn't cover our nations population. Hopefully someone much smarter than I will eventually figure out a better more cost effective solution.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #176 on:** February 24, 2011, 02:00:04 PM »

If you socialist parasites take the profit, I understand profit is an evil thing to your parasitic group, out of the healthcare system we will have the same poor health care as they do in other nations.

Remember the WEALTHIEST people in the WORLD come to America for health care. Please don't pass on lies to forward your agenda and ruining my good health care services.

teamnelson · « **Reply #177 on:** February 24, 2011, 02:06:33 PM »

scootrd,

Government control of the HC system in Canada is through their control of the insurance program, is that about right? Does the HC system have any recourse of complaint if they feel like they're not being dealt with fairly by the sole insurance company? How does the distinction you made differ practically from a state run HC system?

Mahalo,
Chaps

scootrd · « **Reply #178 on:** February 24, 2011, 02:48:46 PM »

Quote from: TeamNelson on February 24, 2011, 02:06:33 PM

scootrd,

Government control of the HC system in Canada is through their control of the insurance program, is that about right? Does the HC system have any recourse of complaint if they feel like they're not being dealt with fairly by the sole insurance company? How does the distinction you made differ practically from a state run HC system?

Mahalo,
Chaps

Each Canadian province has their own ombudsman to resolve disputes - for example:

http://www.ombudsman.ab.ca/

Again, Canadians pick their own doctors, just like Americans do. The only difference is that every doctor deals with one insurer the provincial government for Basic Services covered, which is accountable to the legislature and the voters for it's quality of coverage.

While the health care system in Canada covers basic services, there are many services that are not covered.

Private health insurance plans are usually offered as part of employee benefit packages in many companies. Incentives usually include vision and dental care. Alternatively, Canadians can purchase insurance packages from private insurance providers.

Again , I am not stating I'm a proponent , I just feel we should as a nation be looking into and discussing many different models. whether that be universal multi-payer system with two main types of health insurance like Germany has, or National Health Service like England, or a single payer system like Canada, or the best of all and a developed Hybrid. The United States is alone among developed nations in not having some sort of universal health care system.
What we have now no-one on either side of the isle disagrees - our piece meal system is unsustainable,

In 2007 US HC spending was already 15.9% of our GDP.
In 2008 US HC spending was already 16.2% of our GDP.
In 2009 US HC spending was already 17.3% of our GDP.

At this pace it will soon eat up half our paychecks . This System needs to be fixed.

Whats should be debated is the bast way to do it. What is unacceptable is old status quo that got us into this mess to begin with, because we all see how well this has worked out.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #179 on:** February 24, 2011, 03:06:04 PM »

Why should we look into health care systems in places where the health care is second rate to ours? The wealthiest people in the world come to America for serious health issues. Canadians come across the border and pay CASH to get timely needed health care services. Many come for simple arthroscopic surgeries so they don't have to hobble around on crutches for months until they can have surgery. Hey if you think crutches and pain killers are health care go to Canada. I'll stay here and get it fixed quickly.