Author Topic: Gun Cleaning?  (Read 1638 times)

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Offline Hit or Miss

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Gun Cleaning?
« on: February 05, 2011, 01:28:18 PM »
At what point do you guys just give up on a barrel?  I have been soaking and scrubbing, scrubbing and soaking the .223 barrel for weeks now.  I've used 3 different bore cleaners and wore out a brass brush already.  I'm still getting black patches out of the bore.  :(  It seems to shoot pretty good but I would like to start with a clean bore!
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Gun Cleaning?
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2011, 01:37:39 PM »
Black patches usually mean carbon, if it's not been cleaned much, it may have intermittent layers of carbon and copper. But you can clean too much improperly without the use of a good one-piece rod and rod guide which can cause damage to the bore at the throat and muzzle which will be much worse than a fouled bore.  What solvents are you using? Hoppes Elite works excellent on carbon, any of the foam cleaners work great for copper without any brushing, I just use a patched jag after it soaks overnight.

Tim

http://www.6mmbr.com/borecleaning.html

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Offline Hit or Miss

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Re: Gun Cleaning?
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2011, 02:09:01 PM »
I'm using Blue Wonder, Hoppe's Benchrest and something from Birchwood Casey's for solvents.  The rod is coated and one piece and the jag is plastic with an aluminum connector.  I don't want to hurt the barrel by overcleaning it but man, that sucker is dirty! :o
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Gun Cleaning?
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2011, 02:19:07 PM »
Pick up some Hoppes Elite and you'll see some results, you've got to remove the carbon to get to the copper, carbon is the last layer formed, so it's on top of the copper, you're wasting your time if you're using an ineffective product, the Hoppes is the easiest to find of the good carbon solvents.  ;)

Tim

http://www.hoppes.com/products/elite_gun_cleaner.html
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: Gun Cleaning?
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2011, 11:41:37 AM »
Remember too that the solvents for removing copper jacket material from the bore also do the same thing from the bronze bore brushes. You might try a nylon brush and/or just a snug cotton patch on a non-brass jag to see if the 'color' stops.
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Gun Cleaning?
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2011, 12:34:05 PM »
I have had very good luck with Blue wonder!!  Its more of a gel and works very well on all types of fouling. I do not feel a different solvent is going to make allot of difference. (Hoppies Elite is a good cleaner too.)

If the PO shot allot of molly bullets, you can clean till the cows come home and you ain't gonna make it squeaky clean!!!

Not for any other reason but for the foam stays in contact with the barrel longer... try a foam cleaner and allow it to sit, but don't scrub with a brush any-longer, just use a correct jag and a good cotton patch.

If you are not seeing blue on the patches, you don't have copper fouling.

CW
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Gun Cleaning?
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2011, 02:45:28 PM »
Good point about the moly, didn't think about it, been quite a while since I've shot any!  ::)

Tim
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Gun Cleaning?
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2011, 02:58:24 PM »
Handi shoot better dirty, and with modern ammo cleaning is unnecessary.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline Hit or Miss

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Re: Gun Cleaning?
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2011, 05:05:44 PM »
Thanks guys!  I'll keep after it with patches for a while!
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Offline LONGTOM

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Re: Gun Cleaning?
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2011, 06:33:10 PM »
Bore snakes work pretty good also.
No danger of rod wear with them.




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Offline Darreld Walton

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Re: Gun Cleaning?
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2011, 12:29:47 AM »
I scrubbed a severely abused Model 700 ADL Remington, a .243, that looked as though it had a badly worn throat, but I figured I'd clean it before giving up on the barrel.  This rifle looked like it'd been rolling around the bed of a pickup on the desert.  Trigger was full of fine dirt, and was nearly non-functional.  I completely disassembled the rifle.  Completely...  I started out running a heavily soaked patch through with Kroil, letting it sit for about a half hour, then swabbed that out, and gave it a good soak with a heavy coat of Sweet's 7.62.  Nasty patches that never did come clean, so I swabbed it out with No. 9, then dry patches, and made a tight fitting patch and JB'd the barrel.  Still a bunch o' crud, so I 7.62'd the thing again, and repeated the JB's after, then, used a new, tight fitting bronze brush with Hoppe's for about ten strokes, then patches.  The bore ended up looking like it'd never been fired, it was that nasty to start with.  I was rewarded a couple weekends ago with groups of 1/4 to 3/8's of an inch at a hundred yards with 100 gr. Hornady BTSPs and 4350.
There are times when I've gone as far as making a patch from the lead remover rags, the yellow, impregnated things, and running that through, but some barrels just absolutely refuse to come clean with mechanical cleaning, so I break down, take it to the 'smith, and have him use his Foul Out electrochemical rig on it.  Someday, I'll build one of those things.  Amazing how much crud comes out, even after I've worn out my elbow joints and shoulders trying to mechanically clean.
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Gun Cleaning?
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2011, 05:49:41 AM »
At what point do you guys just give up on a barrel?  I have been soaking and scrubbing, scrubbing and soaking the .223 barrel for weeks now.  I've used 3 different bore cleaners and wore out a brass brush already.  I'm still getting black patches out of the bore.  :(  It seems to shoot pretty good but I would like to start with a clean bore!

I reviewed your past posts on the 223 and see that it was used when you bought it, has it ever shot good yet? It may have lead fouling if the previous owner shot cast bullets in it. I dunno if Blue Wonder works on bad lead fouling, but I know a bunch of others that didn't work worth a darn on a severely fouled TC Black Diamond muzzleloader!!  ::)  Shooters Choice, Hoppes BR, Hoppes Original, Rimfire Blend, Butches, and I don't remember how many others I tried, after reading the info on WipeOut which I've used for copper fouling I learned it works with some time even tho it doesn't work fast, a couple two day soaks with WipeOut finally worked, pushed  a ton of lead flakes out with a patch. The other foaming cleaners may do the same, WipeOut breaks down the alloys in lead which makes it easy to remove.

Tim
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: Gun Cleaning?
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2011, 10:08:14 AM »
If thats the case, and short of buying another bottle of stuff, you might try a well worn brush wrapped with some of a COPPER kitchen scubby to a snug fit and it will scour out leading in pretty quick fashion (DO NOT use any but the copper; check it with a magnet). Then do the copper solvent soak with patches, no brush, and see what you get.
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Offline goofyoldfart

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Re: Gun Cleaning?
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2011, 10:29:50 AM »
Come on Hit or Miss ,  I am waiting with baited breath to hear how this is going and what the answer is going to be.

Quick:  is the foamy stuff along with wipe out  really worth it?? the reason that i ask is on SS I have to budget for my toys and their loving care. I do know that my homemade ElectroChemical  unit does a great job, but a little chemical assistance sure probably wouldn't hurt. Just askin'. God Bless to all. 

                        Goofyoldfart.

ETA :  what do the gold squares in the Avatar area mean???

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Gun Cleaning?
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2011, 10:30:10 AM »
Bore snakes work pretty good also.
No danger of rod wear with them.
If you take that bore snake and take an old piece of steel and run it back and forth across it you might change your thoughts on wheather it can hurt a bbl. And the older and more dirt on it the better it hurts steel.
 Even the snake needs to be used with care .

If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline goofyoldfart

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Re: Gun Cleaning?
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2011, 10:37:01 AM »
Shootall : Just noticed the time stamp of both of our posts. 20 seconds diff.  Just curious--- what time area are you in or would you care to say where your general area is?  Just being a nosy old fart. you, of course , don't have to answer and there is no offense.

P.S  that Is why I wash my BoreSnake fairly frequently when it even starts to look dirty.   God Bless to all.


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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Gun Cleaning?
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2011, 10:57:25 AM »
Quick:  is the foamy stuff along with wipe out  really worth it?? the reason that i ask is on SS I have to budget for my toys and their loving care. I do know that my homemade ElectroChemical  unit does a great job, but a little chemical assistance sure probably wouldn't hurt. Just askin'. God Bless to all. 

                        Goofyoldfart.

ETA :  what do the gold squares in the Avatar area mean???

The foams work real well if you're not in a hurry and you don't like brushing, they work great on copper, not so well on carbon. When I get home from the range I foam the bore and leave it set for, the foam tends to settle in the bottom of the bore, so I lay the rifle on one side for several hours, then on the other the rest of the time, next day push a few patches thru the bore, and follow up with oil. If the bore is really copper fouled or the patches don't come out as clean as I'd like, I may repeat the process another day. All of the foaming cleaners except WipeOut are made by Milfoam, some even state that on the can. I don't see a lot of difference between WipeOut and the others, but I do know WipeOut works excellent on lead given enough time and it states that on their website. Dunno if Milfoam products work on lead, never tried them. I also know the best buy in foams is Gunslick, it comes in a 12oz can for $13.

The yellow squares are supposed to be member rank by number of posts made, but it isn't working, you'll notice only newbies have the squares, oldies have an asterisk.

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Offline LONGTOM

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Re: Gun Cleaning?
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2011, 12:54:30 PM »
Bore snakes work pretty good also.
No danger of rod wear with them.
If you take that bore snake and take an old piece of steel and run it back and forth across it you might change your thoughts on wheather it can hurt a bbl. And the older and more dirt on it the better it hurts steel.
 Even the snake needs to be used with care .


While that is true to some extent, it would take quite a lot of passes to do the damage a rod could do with out a bore guide in just a short while.
I do agree about it getting to dirty.
That would add extra wear for sure.



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Offline Swampman

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Re: Gun Cleaning?
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2011, 02:27:35 PM »
Bore guide or no, cleaning a barrel is just ruining it.  Considering some only last 1000 shots why wear them out with a brush?
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline gcrank1

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Re: Gun Cleaning?
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2011, 04:08:15 PM »
Good point Swampy; I did neglect to ask, why are you cleaning it. Isnt it grouping or what?
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Offline Hit or Miss

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Q
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2011, 04:43:01 PM »
I'm still working on it, mostly long soaks with a patch soaked in one of the three cleaners I have.  I'm cleaning it because it is a circa 1993 model and I have no idea of it's past care.  I'd like to eliminate at least one variable from the equation.  I'm no clean freak when it comes to bores! ;D  The patch today after an overnight soak came out pretty clean.  If the weather cooperates this weekend I plan to put some rounds through it to see about some groups.  I haven't been too thrilled with the groups so far, but I'm also working through the tricks in the FAQ's too.
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Gun Cleaning?
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2011, 11:19:02 PM »
Bore guide or no, cleaning a barrel is just ruining it.  Considering some only last 1000 shots why wear them out with a brush?

OMG Swamp.....WHERE do you get this stuff????  GEESH! ::) ::) ::) You gonna shoot some 1000yard or Olympic matches with that $200 rifle? Long range and ultimate accuracy fellers may get that from a overbore caliber, yes. BUT, that's SUCH a far cry from the reg Joe like you and me!! Believe me when I say, all of us LOVE TO HAVE these "inaccurate" barrels/firearms cause they have MANY, MANY, MANY more rounds with our kind of accuracy left in them!!!

It's a PROVED FACT that the #1 killer of accuracy is a DIRTY, FOULED BORE!! I have said it before, Gunsmiths #1 "trick" to correct accuracy problems is to CLEAN THE BARRELS!!!
 
 Come on fellas.... Read and learn.. We have hoed this rowe before... A short time ago we went round and round about polishing bores, it kinda morphed into cleaning or not. Everyone has an opinion and that's great. But do yourself a favor before you take any of this information as gospel... Consider the source, read what the barrel manufacturers say about the barrels they make OR look to guys who shoot little groups at long ranges. By and large, groups are shot from CLEAN, freshly fouled bores. Fouled by a couple fouling shots fired just before shooting for group.

CW
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Gun Cleaning?
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2011, 01:30:29 AM »
Shootall : Just noticed the time stamp of both of our posts. 20 seconds diff.  Just curious--- what time area are you in or would you care to say where your general area is?  Just being a nosy old fart. you, of course , don't have to answer and there is no offense.

P.S  that Is why I wash my BoreSnake fairly frequently when it even starts to look dirty.   God Bless to all.


                          Goofyoldfart
Va. , don't mind saying . anyone who knows how could tell anyway . The snake is tuff and can cut metal to a point even clean. Pulling it out rubbing the side of the crown or bore could cause trouble over time I suspect. I use them , just careful .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Gun Cleaning?
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2011, 01:35:01 AM »
Bore guide or no, cleaning a barrel is just ruining it.  Considering some only last 1000 shots why wear them out with a brush?
I believe you would find a poor rod or misuse of the rod hurts the bbl more than a brass or synthetic brush.
BTW I have picked up a few guns cheap the owner said would not shoot only to clean them and have a tack driver .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Swampman

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Re: Gun Cleaning?
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2011, 02:19:00 AM »
Quote
It's a PROVED FACT that the #1 killer of accuracy is a DIRTY, FOULED BORE!! I have said it before, Gunsmiths #1 "trick" to correct accuracy problems is to CLEAN THE BARRELS!!!

I've never seen a rifle that would group until it was dirty.  Got a nice email from some young men in Afganistan supporting my position.  Keep up the good work guys.  I almost never clean a barrel.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Gun Cleaning?
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2011, 02:30:53 AM »
Define dirty . Most know a fouled bbl. will shoot to scope setting or sights because the gun was sighted in with a fouled bbl. If every shot was from a cold clean bbl. maybe it would prove a clean bbl is accurate also. But we take alot of shots before cleaning.
 Don't confuse a fouled bbl. with a dirty bbl.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline LONGTOM

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Re: Gun Cleaning?
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2011, 02:50:48 AM »
I too very seldom really clean a barrel.
I will run a snake of dry patch through once is a while but not often.
I can tell you that I have seen way more barrels with wear from using a rod incorrectly than from a snake.
Only when the accuracy starts to drop off will it get a good cleaning.
Depending on the barrel and caliber that may be anywhere from 10 rounds to over 100.
Every barrel is different.
I once owned a TC Custom Shop barrel in 17 Rem that would not shoot to point of aim until it had at least 4 fouling shots and then it was good for the next 8 or 9 rounds.
After than it was all over the place.
Clean it, foul it with 4 more rounds and good again for the next 8 or 10.
That being said, I also owned a Contender carbine in 223 that only needed 1 fouling shot and was good for over 100 rounds before it started to drop off.
A good cleaning, 1 fouling shot and good to go again!
I know a few fellas that shoot that long range stuff with high $$$ custom guns.
Most do shoot clean, lightly fouled barrels but a few shoot what the barrel likes and that is with a dirty bore.
Nothing is written in stone.
If it works for you, either way, by all means continue, but it's not true for all.

Just to prove a point that not all are the same.
I own a Win pre war model 70 in 22 hornet that some fool cut the barrel back with a saw and a file before I got it.
No crown at all and the barrel is cut at an angle that you can see with the naked eye.
By all accounts this barrel should not shoot very well.
Not only will it shoot well, it will cut three hole groups at 100 with factory ammo more times than not.
I have won more than a few $$$ from people who say that gun can't shoot that way.
Well, just bring your gun and some money, it does!!!
What works for one ain't always true for all.



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"THE TREE OF LIBERTY FROM TIME TO TIME MUST BE REFRESHED WITH THE BLOOD OF PATRIOTS AND TYRANTS".
THOMAS JEFFERSON

That my two young sons may never have to know the horrors of war. 

I will stand for your rights as my forefathers did before me!
My thanks to those who have, are and will stand for mine!
To those in the military, I salute you!

LONGTOM 9-25-07

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Gun Cleaning?
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2011, 02:54:58 AM »
Know your gun ! ;)
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline petemi

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Re: Gun Cleaning?
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2011, 02:56:23 AM »
I've got to agree with Swampy.  I don't clean them until I really have to, and that's usually after a long period of unuse.  My Handis are much like me, we like things a little untidy.  To me, shooting a few jacketed bullets takes most of the crud out, just leaving enough to make it accurate.  I'm not a clean freak.  Black powder or corrosive ammo is another thing.  I clean when done shooting.

Pete
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Gun Cleaning?
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2011, 03:22:10 AM »
I shot my XP-100 anywhere from 200 to 500 times a week . I went thru. 3 of them in 7 BR. If I did not clean them I would get a pattern not a group .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !