What should our military be using?

[Redhawk1]

TeamNelson, do the rag-heads play by the geneva convention?  I think not..  I think we should use what ever to kill them!  Just sayin.. 

[Noreaster]

The 6mm or 270 caliber would be good for long shots. The 7.62x39mm uses an odd ball caliber (.311) and tappered neck that causes a big curve on AK47 mag, (though it hasn't been an issue with all of the soldiers and badguys around the world currently using it.)  The 300 blackout  has about the same ballistics and uses a .223 catridge necked up and works great in the M4 plateform.

I've been told that the 5.56mm was fine with the 20 inch barrel and 55 grain bullets. The barrels have gotten shorter and shorter and bullet weights go up for more KE, now they don't work very well. The ballistics on a M4a1 w/14inch barrel are about the same as a 22 hornet! I've read that the military is considering the Federal EFMJ for the 9mm, that would be usefull.

[bigbird09]

TeamNelson, do the rag-heads play by the geneva convention?  I think not..  I think we should use what ever to kill them!  Just sayin.. 

this, I never did really understand the Geneva convention,  I know it's suppose to make war less "brutal" or some craziness, but honestly if someone is trying to kill me, I don't not wanna be able to defend myself and my comrades because of some writing that if you break it your the bad guy and then you have a International  incident on your hands.

As for a battle rifle if some other round could be developed that give you great down range capability with tremendous stopping power then I would be all for it,  and I'm not saying that the 7.62x39 is an end all cartridge,  yes it has great capabilities, but like most things it has its downfalls as well.  I'm pretty well stuck on the .30 cal round because it's big enough to do massive damage, but small enough that it doesn't add a lot of undue wieght.  I also don't think that battle rifles should be full auto, much like I don't think they need tremedous down range capabilites.  Sure 400 meter sounds like a good number to strive for, but much more than that you generally have someone near by with a m14, or you need to be looking to move positions.  I don't feel they should be full auto because your gonna get people in a panic situation that are just gonna go full auto and waste ammo,  you need that kinda lead down range, then pull up a m249 or m60.  I would really like to see a new weapon system based on the bull pup design,  you get more range out of a smaller weapon system. 

[JASmith]

...do the rag-heads play by the geneva convention?  I think not..  I think we should use what ever to kill them!...

The frustrating part of this whole Geneva thing is that our main objective is to gain enough trust that the locals will take over their own defense with us as partners.  Part of this gaining of trust is for folks to know that we play by the rules.  Especially the ones WE set! 

You don't see many complaints about indiscriminate killing by Al-Qaeda but let a baby get a sore toe because one of our soldiers screwed up, the world's press has a field day!  That is because we have indeed set high standards for ourselves and our soldiers.

While the concern has more to do with targeting decisions and troop behavior (the girl or guy had better be the right age, willing, and in a country allows dating by foreigners!), it applies to ammunition types as well.  Look at land mines and cluster weapons for example. 

Ammunition for battle rifles and pistols could be constrained by the same rules set for domestic law-enforcement, but we tend to adhere to the most constraining guidance.

[teamnelson]

For example, a loving father thinks he's doing his son a favor and manages to smuggle his son on the front lines a box of hydra-shok, or black talon ammo for his side arm. If anyone in his chain observes him possessing that ammo, he can be charged for NJP; if he manages to use that ammo in combat and its revealed, we have an international incident, and he'll be court-martialed, his CO relieved, and million$ in reparations will go to smoothing over the tenuous relationships necessary for victory. Don't think that's happened?

If you're thinking solely from the perspective of survival, you'll say this is crazy talk. If however you follow what JASmith was saying, victory is not contingent on extermination of the enemy - despite how you might feel. We could not afford to do that more than once, and we'd be the pariahs of the world. The ensuing isolation would be the opposite of self-regulation and control. Victory is complex, and the way we (the USofA) fight is with honor, so that we can take pride in ourselves at the end of the day, and we've said that with honor means we don't use certain types of ammo.

[Swampman]

Mil-Spec 9mm FMJs are just fine.  No need for fancy bullets as they rarely feed well anyway.

[ShootnStr8]

First and foremost, I want to thank those of you who replied and served in our military!  I am very grateful for you sacrifice. 

While I was poking around on the net looking for the armor piercing capabilities of cartridges in 6.5, I ran across the 6.5X25 CBJ that Sweden has developed.  It looks like a great rechamber for a 9mm pistol as well as a chambering for a submachine gun.  Please notice the armor pentration as well as energy transfer. 

http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/cbj/cbj_crtg.htm 

What do y'all think of this thing?  I'm wondering what would happen if you upscaled the cartridge from 9mm to 10mm. 

Blessings!

Shootnstr8

[hillbill]

all these suggestions are good but im thinkin a new round, a 6.5x39? for the rifle in a ar platform or a m14 platform preferably.for a sidearm id go back to the beretta 9mm but i just like them.glocks are good, reliable and easy to shoot for people not used to pistols.lots of good suggestions here!

[mauser98us]

Nothing will happen. Calibers will not get bigger. This would hamper weak recuits saying the recoil hurts.

[bigbird09]

Nothing will happen. Calibers will not get bigger. This would hamper weak recuits saying the recoil hurts.

Then I guess they get to stay in the rear with the gear.  I'm sorry but when you join the military you know you have to shoot a weapon of some sorts,  suck it up and deal with it,  its part of the job.

[mauser98us]

Nothing will happen. Calibers will not get bigger. This would hamper weak recuits saying the recoil hurts.

Then I guess they get to stay in the rear with the gear.  I'm sorry but when you join the military you know you have to shoot a weapon of some sorts,  suck it up and deal with it,  its part of the job.

I don't disagree.

[teamnelson]

Mil-Spec 9mm FMJs are just fine.  No need for fancy bullets as they rarely feed well anyway.

Fine for shooting through black pajamas at point blank range? Fine for penetrating 12" cinder block from 100 yds? Fine for cracking the engine block on a moving datsun packed with C4 and ball bearings? Which actual combat application do you feel the 9mm ball is fine for?

Could you define "just fine"?

[SHOOTALL]

TeamNelson what type/s ammo is used in the 9mm now I have hears of some odd stuff .

Issue ammo is 124gr Ball (FMJ). On soft targets, it passes through with limited trauma or energy dump. On hard targets, the energy is insufficient to penetrate a helmet, flak jacket, never mind SAAPI, car door, metal house door, etc.

The ammo you might have heard of was the LP-FMJ, with some sort of truncated nose that I think Federal was developing for testing. Darn that geneva convention.

I don't know facts but only what I have read from unoffical sources - but it seemed that there is a trend to make a FNJ bullet with a soft or hollow section under the bullet tip. I think the Russians developed such first. Then in one article there is mention that a HP can be used if for accuracy not to inflict more damage , it would be built like a target bullet . All hear say really.

[SHOOTALL]

" We could not afford to do that more than once, and we'd be the pariahs of the world. The ensuing isolation would be the opposite of self-regulation and control. Victory is complex, and the way we (the USofA) fight is with honor, so that we can take pride in ourselves at the end of the day, and we've said that with honor means we don't use certain types of ammo."
[/quote]
 I understand your thoughts but then consider that our own law enforcement uses just the ammo banned . It seems wrong to use it on our own people but not to defend them .

[williamlayton]

Oft times the Bully is know as the bully because of how and who he fights.
You can be a warrior or a bully but the line is fine and once crossed the reputation is there to bear.
Blessings

[SHOOTALL]

I would also ask if we are fighting an enemy in uniform or are we policing criminals ?

[Blackhawker]

Sorry, I skipped a lot of the thread and just decided to answer the original question.

I'm a believer in the 45 but I can't help but wonder why all (or at least most) of our federal agents are using the 357 Sig yet we give our soldiers (who we KNOW are gonna see action and use their guns) 9mm's?  Why don't they just adopt the .357 Sig for all federal agents and soldiers?

In "fantasy-land"; if availability of ammo wasn't an issue, I'd say each soldier should be able to carry what they can shoot well.  If that's a 357 or 44 mag or a 480 Ruger, then so be it!  Or maybe they should carry a Gov Issue pistol along with their own pistol of choice. 

[1911crazy]

When the m16 was failing first in nam i heard that shotguns were being shipped to nam from the family members.

I think we backed off on the more powerful calbers to be inhumane si we just wound our enemy to take them out of the battle and not to kill them dead.  Well in other wars this worked out ok, but in this war these bad guys will fight to there last breath so we have to kill them.  The 223 and the 9mm's do not do quick clean kills and this is the problem.  Plus the 223 won't shoot the longer distances like the 308 in the m14 will do too.  Houston we have a problem and we have had it for many years.  I blame this on who ever is steering the ship, they need to wake up and get it right soon. The 9mm is a failure in close combat in house to house or building to building searches for the bad guy.  It takes many more rounds to take them out.  This puts our guys/gals in more danger too.

I think being inbed with the NATO forces is why its a cluster fxxx today with the calibers were stuck with.  Its like the imperial system and the metric system no other countries wated to work with us so were giving in a little at a time wether we like it or not.  The M14 was and still is a great rifle but we need something a little smaller too.  I would think the 6,5 swede would do it all, but we need the M14 with it too in the squad.  With the 9mm pistol we were forced into making that choice too we followed with eyes open with NATO again in that choice.  We should of never, never gave up the 1911 in 45acp.  Our service men and women deserve the best that we can give them.  Its time for a change in our firepower line up for the grunts on the ground.  Some of what were using right now aren't working and our armed forcves are put in harms way and we need to do this change very quickly for enough is enough.   I'm sure if the seat warmers in the pentagon were on the front lines the changes would of happened already.  Our foot soldiers need the best that we can give them now, not yesterday or next year they need it now!!!!                                                                                                CZY

BTW;  Why do we need a new design caliber for a small arms rifle.  There are so many great calibers out there right now why not use one of them?  The 260 remington or the 6,5mm swede are awesome proven calibers already.  Why reinvent the wheel with a brand new caliber and we may end up with a POS.  I would move very quickly so we can test it in the field right now so we don't have to wait for another war.  Either the 260rem, 6,5swede or even the 280rem would serve us well i'm sure.

With the russians at izhmash (saiga) already saying that our american calibers of 223 & 308 are more accurate than there russian calibers why not use the 308 brass and either scale it down a tad or make it in 6,5mm   Since the 308 brass is why its so accurate and we already know the 6,5mm swede is a good flat shooting round why not marry them to have another great caliber/round.  We could put it in the m14 too. Why not order the new russian saiga's in this caliber then we have the ultimate rifle in an awesome caliber too??  Why not use the saiga's?  These rifles are awesome and better than any of the semi's i have shot. Why waste the taxpayers $$$ when we can buy it and import it here much cheaper. Since were inbed with the EU why not the russians too.We need to do our own thing and whats the best for us not the other countries. I would take the russian izhmash saiga into any battle with no fear.

[SHOOTALL]

6.8 SPC . 

[bigbird09]

Well in other wars this worked out ok, but in this war these bad guys will fight to there last breath so we have to kill them.

Actually we had that problem with the japanese in WWII as well

Levi

[Noreaster]

Blackhawker the 357 sig is just a hot 9mm. The 9mm nato is already pretty much a 9mm +p round, only about 150fps difference from the 357 sig. Unless they get to use expanding ammo I don't think the 357 Sig would make a huge difference, couldn't hurt of course. I wonder if a flat point bullet would make any difference, something like the Win white box stuff.

[SHOOTALL]

I would think the 9mm or 357 sig would work about as well as a 30 carbine . Check the ballistic tables . Now who wants to go back to that ?

[Dixie Dude]

I think if you need more knock down power use either the .357 sig or 40sw for a high capacity compromise on handgun.  For assault rifle use the 7.62x39 or the 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 Spec.  More knockdown and range and can be fitted to existing AR platform.  Or go back to like we did in WWII.  Have one guy with an M-14 in each squad.  In WWII, you had the Garand, the BAR (both were 30-06), the M1 Carbine, and the Tommy gun (45acp).  Basically 3 types of Ammo.  We already have the 7.62 x 61 (.308) machine guns on Humvees and tanks, so why not just have one guy in each squad, say the best rifleman, use the M-14 for long range work.  But the question was on sidearms, so what is the ballistics on the .357 sig vs the 40 sw?  Both should be better than 9mm, but less than .45.  The .357 sig might have more penetration than the two other with conical bullets instead of round. 

[SHOOTALL]

I can't remember who said it but it was a British officer when they were deciding on a handgun round back in the 1800's . It went something like when a soilder really needs a handgun he needs a da-- big one . The officer had seen his share of combat and knew of what he spoke. Maybe someone knows the exact words ?

[charles p]

I served in the CG Reserve from 67-94 so I saw the change in rifle and pistol platforms.

While I agree that the 45ACP is a better round for the pistol than the 9mm, I shoot the 9mm Beretta a lot better and it never jams.  The old 45's we trained with would stovepipe at least once every 25 shots or so.  I also shoot the 5.56 better than the M-1 or M-14.

Larger cases and larger bullets are heavier thus in combat each foot soldier will have fewer rounds at his disposal when the need arrises.

[teamnelson]

What do you envision a rank & file GI needing to shoot with their sidearm? Maybe we should start there. The .45 is better than a 9mm on thin skinned asians in pajamas running at you in open spaces. However, neither are very effective on concrete, steel, body armor, kevlar, car doors ... you know, the things our current and future enemies fire from behind? The only thing that has the potential to deliver in a sidearm for current operations appears to be that 6.5x25 CBJ mentioned earlier.

[williamlayton]

There are variety of weapons---and therefore; calibers because there are a varieti of needs that are not appropriate for all situation.
A vastly exaggerated example is the .50 cal in breaking and entering a house.
The sidearm should be a .45 cal IMO.
A rifle should have a 400 meter range and should beselect fire.
The M-14 on auto proved to be a weak anti-aicraft weapon--on semi-auto was a fine rifle. Do not use an M-14 on entering a home or building---this I promise you.
Now---the old grease gun in .45 was a house calmer----don't try to shoot someone on the next block though.
It is not the recoil that is the killer--it is the logistics and weight of the ammo that is the concern.
The BAR worked wonderfully well as a squad automatic weapon----just don't take it too far from home, it is a hungry beast and a man large enough to carry the necessary ammo supply does not exist.
Blessings
 

[Blackhawker]

What do you envision a rank & file GI needing to shoot with their sidearm? Maybe we should start there. The .45 is better than a 9mm on thin skinned asians in pajamas running at you in open spaces. However, neither are very effective on concrete, steel, body armor, kevlar, car doors ... you know, the things our current and future enemies fire from behind? The only thing that has the potential to deliver in a sidearm for current operations appears to be that 6.5x25 CBJ mentioned earlier.

On that note, everyone carried belt fed grenade launchers!   

[45-70.gov]

i think  we should go to lead free ammo

for years  we have been spreading lead pollution  all over the world

i  am sure the  tax payers won't mind  paying a little   more

if it keeps the tree huggers  happy

what happened to the 6.8?
it seems to be loosing the momentum  it had a few years ago

i like the ar-15 platform
and  it MUST be scoped  [red dot ok]
no disadvantage to full auto  if trained properly
no real advantage to full auto if trained properly [most of the time]

i carry a hand gun at home
why would  ANYONE  say  a soldier IN COMBAT  has no need for  one

45 acp........or 10mm.....no 40smith
i like the glock  type dao  over the  old  1911

what about shot guns?
i heard they are not gen-convention compliant...but i see them on the news

no  combat experience  so  my opinion  is basically worthless

[Redhawk1]

We really could save a bunch of American lives, and just drop a few nukes in sand land and make a glass parking lot out of the middle east!