Author Topic: What should our military be using?  (Read 3950 times)

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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: What should our military be using?
« Reply #60 on: February 10, 2011, 04:49:15 AM »
What do you envision a rank & file GI needing to shoot with their sidearm? Maybe we should start there. The .45 is better than a 9mm on thin skinned asians in pajamas running at you in open spaces. However, neither are very effective on concrete, steel, body armor, kevlar, car doors ... you know, the things our current and future enemies fire from behind? The only thing that has the potential to deliver in a sidearm for current operations appears to be that 6.5x25 CBJ mentioned earlier.
I see it as a last ditch weapon when all else is either out of ammo or not working . Used to either protect ones self or fight back to a better weapon. That's a limited view I'm sure but with ball ammo for that purpose bigger is better and has been proven so in several wars and police actions .
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: What should our military be using?
« Reply #61 on: February 10, 2011, 11:25:14 AM »
So if sidearms are so invaluable, why are entire infantry regiments deissuing them from combat troops?

Not being a smart-alec, just trying to get folks to think outside a traditional box. I can tell you why my infantry command deissued them in combat.
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Offline myronman3

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Re: What should our military be using?
« Reply #62 on: February 10, 2011, 06:02:29 PM »
as an paratrooper and an infantryman, i can tell you i really wished i had been able to carry a sidearm.  i didnt much care for the beretta.    if i had my choice, it would be a glock 20 in 10mm.  i think that is about as perfect a combat handgun could be. 
   as far as rifles, someone mentioned the 30-06.   and i have to tell you, as far as range, accuracy, and sheer power, i love it.   but as a guy that understands what an airborne infantryman has to do, i would fear carrying a load of ammo.   the standard they said was 210 rounds for a rifleman, and i can tell you i dont ever once remember carrying only 210 rounds. 
 a lighter weight round, with the punch and range of the heavier round is what we need.  i like the 6.8; but i think the accuracy leaves something to be desired at ranges these guys are encountering.   i do like the 6.5 calibers....maybe a 6.8 case necked down to a 6.5 bullet.  i liked the grendel, but the case of the 6.8 is better designed. 
   as far as rifle plateform.....i like the piston driven designs they are coming out with.   the ruger s.r. 556 really interests me.   i think this is likely the way things will head.   
    the documentary 'restrepo'....i watched it and i about tipped over when i saw a few guys i served with.   i knew the 1sgt lamonta caldwell back when he just made e5.    he was a very good guy.   
   i'd really like to see a great rifle platform/caliber and handgun platform/caliber upgrade very soon.  it is long overdue.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: What should our military be using?
« Reply #63 on: February 11, 2011, 01:10:49 AM »
So if sidearms are so invaluable, why are entire infantry regiments deissuing them from combat troops?

Not being a smart-alec, just trying to get folks to think outside a traditional box. I can tell you why my infantry command deissued them in combat.

Why are they doing so ? I read where many other countries are issueing Glocks to most troops ,all SOF troops and alot of other troops . BTW don't take it as SA ,
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Offline Noreaster

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Re: What should our military be using?
« Reply #64 on: February 11, 2011, 01:49:27 AM »
myronman3 thank you for your input and service. I take your experience and input on this subject above all. I was 11b 87-95, straight leg - no beret. When I was a 60 gunner I carried a sidearm. My first was a Remington rand 45 auto built in WWII. We switched to Beretta's a couple of years later. I thought the Beretta was an improvement, but I wasn't deployed anywhere. We started with the M16a1 and switched to the A2. The thought then was the A2 felt more like a rifle and less like a carbine. Years later the Army went in the opposite direction with the M4. Watching you guys on tv it looks like some pretty long range shooting at times. How do the red dot sights work for distant shots. We always used the peep and front post.

Offline myronman3

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Re: What should our military be using?
« Reply #65 on: February 11, 2011, 03:11:44 AM »
you and me served in the same time frame.  what unit were you with?     you probably served with some of the same guys i did. i went in in 91 and left in 94.   now, they all wear berets!  ha!   we used to say there were only two real m.o.s.'s.......11b and 11wannabe.    haha!  m4's, red dots, and m60's (or lack thereof) it seems like many changes happened since i have left. 

   as far as the peep and front sight post, oddly enough that is my preference for fast target engagment.   i guess being trained as an infantryman and seeing what a guy could do with plain old iron sights has stuck with me; being able to spot a target, engage it, and spot the next target was never a problem for me.   alot of the gee whiz bang stuff is nice, but remember, those guys have to carry all that stuff.   and from my experience, i would rather have an extra two pounds of ammo.   dont get me wrong, there are alot of really cool things available now for the guys i wish i would have existed back then.   i just think some of the stuff get close to impractical.      focusing on a great rifle and pistol for our guys seems like it would be a good thing and very overdue.   that being said, i do love the m16a2/ar15/car15.    i have also shot the m14, and the m1 garand.   and if i didnt have to carry it and it's ammo, the garand would have  been my choice.  the only weakness is the magazine for it.   i prefer a detachable macazine for quick reloading.

Offline teamnelson

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Re: What should our military be using?
« Reply #66 on: February 11, 2011, 09:25:10 AM »
So if sidearms are so invaluable, why are entire infantry regiments deissuing them from combat troops?

Not being a smart-alec, just trying to get folks to think outside a traditional box. I can tell you why my infantry command deissued them in combat.

Why are they doing so ? I read where many other countries are issueing Glocks to most troops ,all SOF troops and alot of other troops . BTW don't take it as SA ,

In 2006-2007, serving in Haditha with 2/3 Infantry (highly kinetic, 40 KIA in our TF, 3-400 wounded), within a month of high intensity combat, my men were requesting to turn in their sidearms as they were ineffective against the enemy, and they more greatly feared losing them. That was a grass roots voluntary movement. In 2008 in Fallujah, policy was to not issue sidearms and call back any that were; all those who usually only carry a sidearm were issued M4s, and as many as could swap out the A4 for an M4, did. Again, reason cited, combat ineffective against the enemy who was firing from distance and/or from cover. The M4 can serve both in CQB (room clearing) and open spaces equally. Our enemy does not assault in waves against a defensive position to where we'd run out of ammo, fix bayonets and draw our sidearm to defend flag and fatherland. I've been on several hundred patrols, on foot and mounted, dozens of kinetic engagements in which the enemy will make contact, fall back, resume contact, fall back, and so on until they've faded into the back drop. Or snipe from cover, or use indirect fire (mortars), or IEDs. We've had a vest wearing suicide bomber soak up 9mm while continuing to move forward and still detonate within range of a target. Policy changed to engage with 5.56. I've not served with specops folks since the late 80s, so I can only speak to Marine infantry.

The sidearm is still kept in inventory, still issued to garrison, detainee guards, some specops units (who represent a small % of the total combat force). Some units will still draw sidearms and issue to non-combatants, or primarily vehicle mounted troops. My units actually preferred M4s for drivers, etc. because when you get hit in an ambush, you want everybody able to engage the enemy at range. As a combat backup piece, my grunts preferred more mags and a big knife over a sidearm pound for pound.

This conversation cannot be held in the vacum of personal preference. It has to be held understanding the current combat conditions, current combat loadouts (back when I carried a 45 and an M60 in the 80s, I wasn't also wearing 50# in protective gear), and current warfighting doctrine.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: What should our military be using?
« Reply #67 on: February 11, 2011, 09:34:18 AM »
Thanks for the update , it makes alot of sense . 50# of body armor OUCH .
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Offline myronman3

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Re: What should our military be using?
« Reply #68 on: February 11, 2011, 10:37:28 AM »
Quote
This conversation cannot be held in the vacum of personal preference.

    the question is, what should our military be using?   i cannont seperate personal preference and experience from my answer.   the problem that exists with the military, is they have a 'one size fits all' mentality.   you know as well as i do, every situation is different.   the unit i was in, we could be anywhere on the face of the planet in less than 18 hours after the red phone rang.   could have been jungle, could have been desert, could have been mountains, could have been anything you could imagine.    the problem with 'one size fits all' is that one weapon doesnt fit every situation.   i always thought that there should have been multiple weapon systems, and calibers availible.   the mission at hand would have dictated the weapon systems deployed. 
   but that is in my perfect world.   i am just glad i only have to worry about what i arm myself with anymore, and keeping myself supplied.  it is soooo much easier to plan, implement, and i dont have to argue with anyone as to the why's and how's.   lol.   

Offline Noreaster

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Re: What should our military be using?
« Reply #69 on: February 11, 2011, 01:04:48 PM »
Teamnelson I wasn't trying to stir up a debate about the effectiveness of a sidearm in warfare. Sounds like you have allot of experience in the sandbox and I don't. The only time I was overseas was a NATO war game in Iceland. I did not serve in combat. The orginal question was about an improvement to the current issued firearms, maybe there is a better system and maybe not. I'm interested in the topic and I have buddies who are still in. I had LEO experience where my weapon system failed to stop the threat in a timely manner. I did allot of research after that and I was surprised to learn so much about what works and what doesn't and everyone's own experiences. I'm still on the job and I also instruct, I'm around this type of topic allot and I enjoy hearing the opinions and experience of others. I didn't intend to hijack the thread and bore everyone about tales when I wore the steel pot and carried a 60.

Offline kynardsj

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Re: What should our military be using?
« Reply #70 on: February 11, 2011, 01:19:36 PM »
First of all to those that have served or are serving, thank you. IMHO, I know it's the weapon of all the badguys but the AK47 is just hard to beat. I've read a lot of Vietnam War books and one of the stories stands out to me. A couple of GI's found an AK that had been in the jungle so long the bolt had rusted shut. One stood on it and kicked the bolt until it opened then stuck a full clip in it and emptied it. Kalishnikov built a heck of a tough reliable rifle. As far as a sidearm my vote is for a 45 acp in a Glock.
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Offline williamlayton

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Re: What should our military be using?
« Reply #71 on: February 12, 2011, 01:46:18 AM »
Bill Yost my old buddy and a Marine in WWII has told me on a number of occasions this fact.
He made 4 landings in the Pacific. His squads would drop the M1's and Thompson and get the BAR. He said when he and His squad would take the front they all had BAR's what ammo they could carry on them and a can of ammo each.
It would have been a lot easier to carry lighter ammo.
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