Glock 357 Magnum

[SHOOTALL]

summer yes winter no , under a jacket.

[Anduril]

is this 9 x 25 Dillon chambered in anything other than a Glop?
..
 

[mcwoodduck]

is this 9 x 25 Dillon chambered in anything other than a Glop?
..

Any 10mm can get a spare barrel and turn it onto one.
I forget if i am allowed to say Barstow barrels here.
Much like you can change an y40S&W with the swap of a barrel to 357 SIG.

[dantana]

The 9X25 Dillon is the real equal of the .357 magnum and is just a drop in conversion for a Glock 20 or 29.

 
HH,  Now that you listed a photo I will have to say that I purchased 2 boxes of those bullets in a 9MM and test fired them into 12 one gallon oil can jugs a while back and that slug passed thru all 12 jugs.  The only other slug I have have to penetrate that far was my 45 winmag with 250 grain Berry solids.

[45-70.gov]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9725mm_Dillon


did i mention i hate muzzle breaks....the reason the 9x25 was invented

[Lloyd Smale]

no doubt the 10s better but to say a 357 sig is a noisy 9mm is like saying a 300 wby is a noisy 308.

Why not use a .357 Sig in a Glock?

Just a loud 9mm 

[SHOOTALL]

If the 357 sig offered the level of preformance over the better 9mm's that the 300 WBY mag does over the 308 Win. that might be a valid statement but it does not IMHO. That's after shooting all 4 .

[schuetzen]

If these numbers (energy in Joules or ft-lbf) are representative, the 357 SIG does give quite a bit higher performance than the 9mm, but not the performance of the .357 Magnum.  (Note also that test run with 9mm are of a longer barrel ~6" than the 357 SIG or 357 Magnum ~4")


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.357_SIG


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9719mm_Parabellum


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.357_Magnum

[schuetzen]

Schutzen,
Are you interested in selling that 6" G 20 barrel? I would be interested if you where.

CW

I'll probably hang on to it as long as I keep my Glock 21.


I finally did get around to picking up a Glock 20 magazine this past year and tested the barrel with my Glock 21.  It does cycle and fire.  The 10mm brass did not get thrown out as assertive the stock G21 slide with 45ACP and just fell near my feet (different extractor/ejector). There is a slight difference in width of the rear seating tab on the 6" 10mm barrel which probably will cause less accuracy shooting it from a G21.  (The seating tab is slightly narrower on the 10mm.)  The shots I fired didn't zero the same point for the 45ACP and 10mm horizontally.  Next time I take it to the range I will try remember to measure it with a chronograph.

[cwlongshot]

Fair enough!

Yes on the 357sig/9mm/357Mag. The sig beats the 9mm all day long and "approximates" the mag from short barrels with light bullets. It's a good compromise caliber. BUT you need to stay with lighter bullets. Once you get 140+ in weight the lack of powder capacity wins out.

From what i have read firing the 10mm in the 21 with just a barrel/mag swap is not very relyable or advised.

BUT it's not really needed as you can get the 21 to some damn respectable numbers by going "super 45". I really thought hard about it myself. But I already own two other 10's so I had brass and dies. Also the thought of one of those "super 45's" ending up in one of my old 1911's is not a pleasent one.

CW

[SHOOTALL]

If you already have a 21 why not invest in a long slide and bbl for the 10mm and get more power out of it ?

[schuetzen]

If you already have a 21 why not invest in a long slide and bbl for the 10mm and get more power out of it ?

I've considered and was watching gunbroker for a while.  Prices have gotten somewhat high on G20 slide assemblies, into the mid $300.  Then there is still the ejector to swap out, which I don't believe are expensive.  My Glock 21 is pretty old.  I got it about 20 years ago.  I thought about getting a newer Glock 20 Gen 3 with a rail for mounting a light.  In the last couple of years I've gotten into .357 Magnums.  Being a Glock fan and now into .357 Magnums, I would like to see a Glock version of the Coonan 357!

[mcwoodduck]

If you already have a 21 why not invest in a long slide and bbl for the 10mm and get more power out of it ?

I've considered and was watching gunbroker for a while.  Prices have gotten somewhat high on G20 slide assemblies, into the mid $300.  Then there is still the ejector to swap out, which I don't believe are expensive.  My Glock 21 is pretty old.  I got it about 20 years ago.  I thought about getting a newer Glock 20 Gen 3 with a rail for mounting a light.  In the last couple of years I've gotten into .357 Magnums.  Being a Glock fan and now into .357 Magnums, I would like to see a Glock version of the Coonan 357!

They would have to come out with a whole new frame to do that whe nthey can easily change the barrel of the 20 To 9X25 Dillion or one of the 21's to the 9X45 or 38X45 cases and come out with 357 Glock .  Using a 357 bullet and a 45 Case.  I think that would be easier than having to build a while new frame.  What else do you stick in that same 357 Mag Frame?   44 Special?  45 Colt?  Both are ballistic twins to 45 ACP. 

[schuetzen]

If you already have a 21 why not invest in a long slide and bbl for the 10mm and get more power out of it ?

I've considered and was watching gunbroker for a while.  Prices have gotten somewhat high on G20 slide assemblies, into the mid $300.  Then there is still the ejector to swap out, which I don't believe are expensive.  My Glock 21 is pretty old.  I got it about 20 years ago.  I thought about getting a newer Glock 20 Gen 3 with a rail for mounting a light.  In the last couple of years I've gotten into .357 Magnums.  Being a Glock fan and now into .357 Magnums, I would like to see a Glock version of the Coonan 357!

They would have to come out with a whole new frame to do that whe nthey can easily change the barrel of the 20 To 9X25 Dillion or one of the 21's to the 9X45 or 38X45 cases and come out with 357 Glock .  Using a 357 bullet and a 45 Case.  I think that would be easier than having to build a while new frame.  What else do you stick in that same 357 Mag Frame?   44 Special?  45 Colt?  Both are ballistic twins to 45 ACP.

Yea, it's not a very practical idea for Glock.  Glock tends to focus on military and security forces industries and what develops from that to commercial tends to be the result.... Now, how about a Glock carbine?

[mcwoodduck]

I have said for years that Ruger would have been KA BILLIONAIRES if they had taken the PC9 and the PC40 and come out with versions that fed from the Glock, Sig, and Beretta Mags.  Bill Ruger developed the PC 9 for a carbine for Police cars.  LAPD wanted it but wanted it to take the Beretta Mags that were on the belts of LAPD.  BillRuger said they should scrap the 92's and buy P series to go with the carbines.  LAPD said no.  A year or two later we had the West Hollywood shoot out  and a couple of the littel 9mm carbines would have ended the stand off quickly.  Instead we now have police officers with surplus M16's in the squad cars and no longer a market for a small pistol caliber carbine in the police market. 
I know I would have a PC9 that eats from the Sig mags had Ruger made it. 
I have also asked why you can not build a carbine frame for police like the cornor shot only not swiveling that the duty gun snaps into with the under frame rails and gives the police a carbine with out the cost of a firearm.
I looked at squate tube and was trying to build someting similar that would work with any railed auto.  And ataching rails all over the square tube would allow the officers or civilians to have a carbine and handgun in one. 
Sig kind of came out with it.  The ACP.    That turns a handgun into a micro Uzi or other PDW type gun.   And allows the holstered auto to quickly be turned into a Red dot  and flash light mounted Semi Auto SMG.

[SHOOTALL]

Not sure I understand the point ? A G21 slide will accomidate any round that will fit in the mag and has a 45 acp size base. 45 acp , 45 mag, 400 corbon etc . The G20 will do the same for 10mm size rounds and 9mm sized rounds . If another size is needed a slide change is most likely the easy switch. When you consider the conversion bbls aval. the G21 as a base gun/frame and after market bbls seem very attractive for someone wishing to have a gun that will fire a slew of different rounds. I suggest the G21 as they are seen used here for 350-375 used quite often .

[rosewood]

I can see a problem with using the G21 slide for 10mm.  The extractor is setup for the larger base .45 acp not the 10mm.  It might cause some extraction issues.  Also, I believe the slide is cut on the inside to fit the base of the case, so the 10mm might just be loose and not center as it enters the chamber possibly causing feeding issues.  I am not saying it won't work, just might not be reliable.  .400 Corbon is the way to go if you want a 10mm out of a G21.  Ammo is probably expensive unless you reload and bottle necked cases have to be lubed when resizing, so not quite as easy as straight walled cases.  I bet you could have that 10mm barrel reamed to a .400 corbon by a gunsmith.

Got a Para-ord P16-40 that I put a 10mm barrel in.  Got 16 rounds of 10mm.  This is my all around carry gun for the woods.  I handload mine and have 200GR WFGC cast bullets at 1250 out of it.  It is a real tack driver.  10mm is my favorite.

Also have an EAA 10mm, S&W 1076 and a Wyoming (Parker) Arms 10mm.  I don't shoot the Parker as I believe it to be an unsafe gun.  Just bought it because I am a 10mm nut.

As for the .357 mag, unless you handload, it is hard to find factory loads that match up to the 10mm.  But it is very difficult to find 10mm.  .357 mag can be found at Wally World.

[Empty Quiver]

I'm no gunsmith, so bear with me here. Would the rimmed cartridge make the 357 tough to feed through a double stack mag? Many have told me a high capacity .22 handgun was a non starter for this reason. If you have to compromise the reliability of a Glock to get a rimmed round in it what have you accomplished? If you are going to reduce the capacity, again what have you accomplished?
 
As I understand it the .357 SIG was adopted to give better barrier penetration to L.E. , auto glass being a major concern. Yes a +P+ 9MM (whatever that may be)  is so close to 357SIG that it is a wash. But, is every 9MM out on the streets rated to handle a steady diet of  +P+  ( again whatever that is ) ammo?  I mean why buy a .458 Win mag when you can load a Ruger level 45-70 into your old Marlin 1895 once or twice a year right, what could go wrong.   After a couple hundred thousand hot 9mm rounds a year the accelerated wear would present itself I would imagine. Gun companies don't want the LE rep of being weak or problematic.
 
A 10MM glock will never be a S&W 357 mag. As a S&W 357 mag will never be a 10MM Glock. I'm thinking that >75% of the time the differences could not be distinguished. If you live in the 25% you have a choice to make.
 
Buy and carry both    it's really that simple.

[cwlongshot]

The 10mm case necked to 9mm is the 9x25 Dillon, and it is hot, at least as hot if not hotter than a 357, period.  Any 10mm pistol will convert to this chambering and I'll bet that in a 1911 platform with good sights this would be a good varmit round or maybe even a good silhouette round.  I think the 125 gn 9mm bullet from the 9x25 is somewhere over 1500'/sec with the 147 gn slug being right at 1500'/sec.  You can't beat that with a 357. 
A 357 will put a 200 gn slug out the barrel at 1335'/sec, or so Winchester sez:  the 10 doesn't do that.
Hillbill: the 38 Super is a straight walled rimmed (semi-rimmed) cartridge and pistols for it are mass produced.  I also think S&W makes a custom revolver for the 38 Super or some other specialty caliber similar to it.

You are corect, the 9x25 IS hotter than the 357 Mag. The mag is 35k while the Dillon is 40k .


BUT your 1350 fps 357 mag load is RIFLE velocity... 180 g 357 loads do not make 1100 from a vented barrel like most 357's are. Even out of a Conan with almost a 5" barrel 1150 is about tops and again that's a 180g! Again the ONLY way you will get 1300fps (staying with in 35k pressure limits)from a 200g 357 mag is from a longer non vented barrel.
The 10 with a handload, loaded to 40k will do 1300 with a 200g from a 6" barrel.

The 28 stupid is nearly identical to the 357 Sig ballisticaly.

CW

[rosewood]

You are corect, the 9x25 IS hotter than the 357 Mag. The mag is 35k while the Dillon is 40k .



The 28 stupid is nearly identical to the 357 Sig ballisticaly.

CW

What is a 28 stupid??

[mcwoodduck]

You are corect, the 9x25 IS hotter than the 357 Mag. The mag is 35k while the Dillon is 40k .



The 28 stupid is nearly identical to the 357 Sig ballisticaly.

CW

What is a 28 stupid??

I am going to say it is a typo it should have said 38 Stupid (38 Super)

[cwlongshot]

You are corect, the 9x25 IS hotter than the 357 Mag. The mag is 35k while the Dillon is 40k .



The 28 stupid is nearly identical to the 357 Sig ballisticaly.

CW

What is a 28 stupid??

I am going to say it is a typo it should have said 38 Stupid (38 Super)

LOL.. YUP fat fingers on a iphone.  

38 Stupid is a term of endearment when it comes to the 38 Super cartridage.

Back in the day, with IPSC matches, Bianchi cup matches, morphing into IDPA and current practicle pistol. I saw the build up of hi cap mag pistols and making major power. The 38 super the 9x21, 9x23 etc... I just never agreed with pushing the 9mm, when the 45 did it easilly but did not have the capacity meaning the shooter needed marksmanship. Something I feel is more important than capacity.

CW

[rosewood]

I kind of feel stupid that I didn't figure out he meant 38 super.

[mcwoodduck]

I kind of feel stupid that I didn't figure out he meant 38 super.

With how many different wild cat and proprietory rounds there are, there very well could ba a 28 Stupid.
In Europe they took the 9mm case and streched it as far as they could and necked it down.  One was to a 7mm (.284)
and shot small bullets out of it.
I could see a 9mm case streched to about a 30 Mauser case and a 7mm bullet stuck in it and ramped up to hyper speed and stuck in a Coonan 357 frame. 

[SHOOTALL]

If you read history with an eye to self defense rounds you will notice that the 38-WCF was a good one . It was invented for the Winchester rifle shelved for a while then put into production . You can follow the "38" thru. many chamberings from 36 Navy to 357 mag. It is a long history with flops and great rounds . You have to notice the 38 WCF was in reality a .401 bullet not a .357 . It was a good blance of power and control with a 180 gr bullet back in its day. With the 40 S&W we have about the same package . With the 10mm we have more power. History repetes  . I feel bullet shape/profile  helps alot and the 40 may be the equal of the 357 mag when it was a simi wadcutter profile in it's heyday. just a thought.

[mcwoodduck]

If you read history with an eye to self defense rounds you will notice that the 38-WCF was a good one . It was invented for the Winchester rifle shelved for a while then put into production . You can follow the "38" thru. many chamberings from 36 Navy to 357 mag. It is a long history with flops and great rounds . You have to notice the 38 WCF was in reality a .401 bullet not a .357 . It was a good blance of power and control with a 180 gr bullet back in its day. With the 40 S&W we have about the same package . With the 10mm we have more power. History repetes  . I feel bullet shape/profile  helps alot and the 40 may be the equal of the 357 mag when it was a simi wadcutter profile in it's heyday. just a thought.

The 10mm may very well be a hot loaded 38-40 round made for an auto and the 40S&W an auto version of the 38-40 much like the 45 ACP is an Auto version of the S&W schofield round, JMB took his famous round and scalled it down to make 380 ACP and took 30-06 to scale it up to make 50 BMG.
Many of the world pistol and rifle rounds are different attempts to douplicate something else in a different way.
38 Super, 357 Sig, 9X23, 9X25 all trying to reach the magic 357 Mag 125 semi Jacketed hollow point #1 man stopper.
then you have differnent bullet styles to try to get older ctgs to be more effective, and making more larger and smaller projectiles faster or slower to hopefully hit the mark set by the 125 grain Semi Jacketed 1400 FPS Remington load out of a 4" revolver.
ANd look at all the WWI bolt action rifles the different rounds from 6mm to 8mm and everything inbetween to make a standard infantry rifle, all throw a 130 to 200 grain bullet 2300 to 3000 FPS.

[Lloyd Smale]

Im with shootall the 10mm is already a superior round.

why mess up a good 10 mm ?   
 
Desert Egale has 357 mag autos

[Dee]

For those thinking a 357 sig is the same as a 357 mag. They are not the same. The 357 sig is a souped up 9mm bullet. Nothing more, nothing less. As far as the 357 sig having the same stopping characteristics as the 357 mag. They do not.
The standard 9mm WOULD ALREADY out penetrate the 357 mag, and would do so 20 years ago. It is about bullet design, and configuration, and the 9mm will never duplicate the 357 mag regardless of ballistics ON PAPER.
The 357 mag, was what it was, and is what it is, is because of the bullet design, i.e. configuration. It is broad across the nose, and delivers better energy on impact than the 9mm 357 sig. It is not totally reliant on expansion, and give a good balance of penetration, and energy delivery to the target. Something the 9mm has never done, and never will, as it is totally reliant on expansion, once again due to bullet design, i.e. configuration, and for those other folks, SHAPE. It is what it is.
If Glock or any other firearm manufacturer were interested, it would be very easy to duplicate the REAL 357 MAG, by simply producing a 357 mag case RIMLESS, enabling an ACTUAL 38 caliber bullet to be used in the proper bullet configuration. Then, and only then, would one have a REAL 357 mag auto, and it would be in the same arena as "the original 1 shot stop king".
Believing the 9mm 357 sig can perform like the original 357 mag 125 grain JHP in a fight, is much like putting a collar on a coyote and calling him Spot. He will still steal your chickens.
BTW. After experiencing some of this reality on the street, and training many an officer how to survive a fight. I carry a 40s&w. AND! Before anyone takes offense to my remarks, I will say for 20 years it was my job to know these FACTS, and you are not required to accept, or agree, with anything I have typed here.

[mcwoodduck]

Dee,
not going to argue with you.  But with the current batch of 125 grain self defense 357 Mag loads the 357 Sig is running about the same speed.  The difference between a 9mm and a 38 is the difference between .355 and 357. 
Now neither of these rounds are equal to the Remington 125 grain semi jacketed hollow point at the 1400 FPS.  But the flash at night is huge and the recoil is stout for people that are not shooters.  Hence the making of the more advanced bullets and the slower speeds.
The 40 is a great round.  The 10mm is a hotter version and hte 9X25 (10mm necked to 9mm) is the same as 357 mag.
But does bullet design make that much of a difference (hollow point vs Hollow point) or is it all about speed and expansion?
 

[Dee]

Well duck read my post again in reference to bullet SHAPE. It is not all about velocity. The 9mm has always out penetrated the 357 mag BECAUSE OF BULLET "SHAPE" but, the (10mm necked to 9mm) is NOT the same as the 357 mag. Your reference to the hollow points is an old argument, and a pointless one if taken in full context. Clothing can completely negate the hollow point as it is dependent on hydraulics, thus lessening even further the effectiveness of the 9mm. An UNOPENED, WIDE NOSED, 125 grain JHP in a REAL 357 mag, is another story entirely.
Because of "shape" the 9mm OR 357 sig (9mm) notoriously bounces off bone, while the REAL 357 magnum whether ex paned or not, notoriously "BREAKS" bone.
My points on the two are not as much "my opinion" as much as they are FBI record stats compiled over years of compared records of the two involving ACTUAL police shooting reports, and results on bullet performance, and my own use of the 357 mag in a shooting, and other officers shooting events.
One does not have to accept "actual event statistics", but can opt for and accept gun writer reports, and bullet manufacture energy charts. After all. A bumble bee by his mere shape, should not be able to fly, but he does. Another example of what "shouldn't be" but is.