Shipping muzzleloaders

[Forestclimber]

I know you are supposed to be able to mail muzzleloaders without an FFL, but I could not get one mailed through the USPS, FedEx, or UPS yesterday.  What a pain.  I finally paid a local gun dealer to ship it.  UPS did say they would mail it overnight air for me.  I don't even want to know how much that costs.

This is what the Post Office told me:

c. Firearm means any device, including a starter gun, designed to, or that may readily be converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosion, spring, or other mechanical action, or air or gas pressure with enough force to be used as a weapon.

[BUGEYE]

I've bought 3 in my life. all came direct to me via UPS.
of course we wern't so PC back then.

[bubba.50]

i have shipped and received several m/loaders via usps. what i was told by the lady at our little p.o. is that it can't say anything gun or firearm related anywhere on the package. so when i re-use boxes from gun store type places i remove any stickers or labels and such. she knows what i'm sendin' and has never had a problem with it. for what it's worth and good luck to ya, bubba.

[Semisane]

Forestclimber, the person in your local Post Office that gave you that reference is looking in the wrong place.  That quote is Section 12.1.c of the Domestic Mail Manual.  They should learn their own regulations. 

Refer them to Section 12.1.g of the same regulation which states:

12.1.g. Antique firearm means any firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898, or any replica thereof, if such replica:

1. Is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition.

2. Uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and that is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade

and Section 12.2  which states:

12.2 Antique Firearms
Antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces may be accepted for mailing without regard to 12.1.3 through 12.1.6.

[Anduril]

forestclimber,
Were you shipping a long gun or handgun?
..

[pastorp]

Anduril,

It dosent matter. Black powder guns are not classed as firearms. That why no background check is required for their purchase. I mail & receive them through the post office all the time.

Regards,

[Forestclimber]

long gun. 

[yooper77]

I shipped lots of ammo, cartridge rifles and muzzleloader rifles through UPS ground only and never had a problem.  I have been told you cannot ship ammo or firearms from a UPS annex, so I always use the UPS warehouse where the trucks park at night.

yooper77

[quickdtoo]

Long guns, whether rifle, shotgun or muzzleloader(antique by USPS regs), are mailable as long as they aren't NFA weapons.

UPS doesn't differentiate between firearms and muzzleloaders, they accept them all including handguns, but have restrictions on where they can be accepted for shipment and handguns must be shipped overnight service.

Regulations from both services are below.

Tim

http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_008.htm

43 Firearms
431 Definitions
431.1 Firearm
A firearm is defined as any device (including a starter gun) that is designed, or may readily be converted, to expel a projectile by an explosion, a spring, or other mechanical action, or by air or gas pressure with sufficient force to be used as a weapon.
431.2 Handgun
Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (for example, short–barreled shotguns and short–barreled rifles) are defined as handguns. The following definitions apply:
a.   Pistol or Revolver. A pistol or revolver is a handgun designed to be fired by the use of a single hand.
b.   Short–Barreled Rifle. A rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches long is defined as a short–barreled rifle. This includes any weapon made from a rifle (by alteration or modification) resulting in an overall length of less than 26 inches.
c.   Short–Barreled Shotgun. A shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches long is defined as a short–barreled shotgun. This includes any weapon made from a shotgun (by alteration or modification) resulting in an overall length of less than 26 inches.
431.3 Antique Firearm
An antique firearm (including one with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) is any firearm manufactured in or before 1898, or a replica of such a firearm, that meets either of the following conditions:
a.   It is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition.
b.   It uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and that is not readily available through commercial trade channels.
431.4 Rifles and Shotguns
A rifle is a shoulder weapon having a barrel that is 16 inches or more in length. A shotgun is a shoulder weapon having a barrel that is 18 inches or more in length. Rifles and shotguns have an overall length of 26 inches or greater and cannot be concealed on a person.
431.5 Licensed Manufacturer or Licensed Dealer
A manufacturer of firearms or a bona fide dealer in firearms is one duly licensed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF), U.S. Department of the Treasury, under the Gun Control Act of 1968.


http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_009.htm

432 Mailability
432.1 General
The following conditions apply:
a.   Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (referred to as “handguns”) are nonmailable in the domestic mail, except as permitted in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM 601.11.1.
b.   The disassembled parts of a handgun or other type of nonmailable firearm that can be readily reassembled as a weapon are nonmailable, except as permitted in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM 601.11.1 or 601.11.2.
c.   Unloaded antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces are generally permitted, as specified in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM 601.11.2.
d.   Unloaded rifles and shotguns may be mailed if the mailer fully complies with the Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90—618) and
18 U.S.C. 921. The mailer may be required to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not excluded from mailing because of the restrictions in 432.1b and c.
Exhibit 432.1
Mailability Requirements for Firearms
 
Unloaded Handgun
Handguns — e.g., pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person — are nonmailable UNLESS mailed by a licensed manufacturer of firearms, or a licensed dealer of firearms, or an authorized agent of the federal government or government of a state, territory, or district, and ONLY when addressed to a person in one of the following categories for use in the person’s official duties AND upon filing the required affidavit or certificate, as applicable (see DMM 601.11.1.3–7):
a.   Addressee: Officer of Army, Coast Guard, Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, or Organized Reserve Corps.
Affidavit or Certificate Requirements: Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and certificate signed by the commanding officer.
b.   Addressee: Officer of National Guard or militia of a state, territory, or district.
Affidavit or Certificate Requirements: Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and certificate signed by the commanding officer.
c.   Addressee: Officer of the federal government or a state, district, or territory whose official duty is to serve warrants of arrest or commitment.
Affidavit or Certificate Requirements: Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and certificate signed by the head of the agency employing the addressee.
d.   Addressee: Postal Service employees specifically authorized by the Chief Postal Inspector.
Affidavit or Certificate Requirements: Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and certificate signed by the head of the agency employing the addressee.
e.   Addressee: Officer or employee of a U.S. enforcement agency.
Affidavit or Certificate Requirements: Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and certificate signed by the head of the agency employing the addressee.
f.   Addressee: Watchman engaged in guarding federal, state, district, or territory property.
Affidavit or Certificate Requirements: Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and certificate signed by chief clerk of department, bureau, or independent branch of the government agency employing the addressee.
g.   Addressee: Purchasing agent or other designated member of an enforcement agency employing officers and personnel included in c, d, or e above.
Affidavit or Certificate Requirements: Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and certificate signed by the head of agency stating the firearm is to be used by an officer or employee cited in c, d, or e above.
h.   Addressee: Licensed manufacturers and dealers of firearms.
Affidavit or Certificate Requirements: Signed statement on PS Form 1508, Statement by Shipper of Firearms.
The mailer must be a licensed manufacturer or dealer mailing to another licensed manufacturer or dealer.
Handguns may be mailed without regard to the requirements noted in items a–h if the addressee is the FBI (or its Director) or a scientific lab or crime detection bureau of any agency whose members are federal law enforcement officers, or state, district, or territory officers authorized to serve warrants of arrest or commitment.
Manufacturers or dealers must complete PS Form 1508, Statement by Shipper of Firearms, and file with the postmaster.
Postmasters may forward an unsatisfactory mailer statement to their PCSC for a ruling.
Unloaded Rifle or Shotgun
Short-barreled rifles or shotguns that can be concealed on the person are nonmailable.
The mailer must comply with the Gun Control Act of 1968 and with state and local laws.
The Postal Service may require the mailer to open the parcel or give written certification that the weapon is unloaded and not concealable.
Registered Mail service is recommended.
Unloaded Antique Firearm
Unloaded antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces are acceptable for mailing.
 
 
432.2 PS Form 1508
PS Form 1508, Statement by Shipper of Firearms, must be completed by each firearm manufacturer or dealer who deposits firearms for mailing. The form must be filed with the postmaster of the post office of mailing.
432.3 Packaging and Marking
No markings of any kind that indicate the nature of the contents may be placed on the outside wrapper or container of any mailpiece containing firearms. Mailable matter must be properly and securely packaged within the general packaging requirements in DMM 601.1–8.


http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_010.htm

433 Mailer Responsibility
Even though certain types of firearms are permitted to be mailed within the provisions of the postal law in 18 U.S.C. 1715, it is the mailer’s responsibility to comply with all federal and state regulations and local ordinances affecting the movement of firearms.

http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_011.htm

434 Legal Opinions on Mailing Firearms
Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any shipment of rifles or shotguns. Mailers should be referred to the nearest regional ATF office for further advice (see AFT Online at www.atf.treas.gov).




http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/ship/packaging/guidelines/firearms.html

Shipping Firearms
Special Procedures for Shipping Firearms
Use These UPS Services for Your Firearm Shipment
UPS accepts packages containing firearms (as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States Code) for transportation from and between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors (as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code), law enforcement agencies of the United States (or of any department or agency of the United States), law enforcement agencies of any state or department agency (or political subdivision of any state), from and between persons not otherwise prohibited from shipping firearms by federal, state or local law, and when such shipment complies with all federal, state and local laws applicable to the shipper, recipient, and package.

    * Handguns, as defined by 18 U.S.C. § 921,will be accepted for transportation only via UPS Next Day Air Services, specifically, UPS Next Day Air® Early A.M.®, UPS Next Day Air®, and UPS Next Day Air Saver®. (Note: UPS Express CriticalSM Service is not available for firearms).
    * UPS accepts firearm parts for shipment, provided the part is not a "firearm" as defined under federal law; the contents of the package cannot be assembled to form a firearm; and the package otherwise complies with federal, state, and local law. (Note: Receivers or frames of a firearm, firearm mufflers and silencers are considered "firearms" and are accepted for transportation only if shipped in accordance with UPS's requirements for shipping firearms.)
    * UPS does not accept automatic weapons, including machine guns, for shipment.
    * Firearms (including handguns) and firearm parts are not accepted for shipment internationally.
    * UPS ReturnsSM Services are not available for packages containing firearms.

Follow These Packing Requirements

    * Packages containing handguns must be separated from other packages tendered to UPS for delivery.
    * All firearms are to be shipped in new corrugated packaging which meets the UPS Single Wall Box Strength Guidelines. Medium and large UPS boxes may be used for smaller shipments being shipped via UPS Express service.
    * All firearms are to be packaged in accordance with UPS Packaging Guideline Specifications.
    * Ammunition must be shipped separately from packages that contain firearms (including handguns).
    * Ammunition will be transported only when packaged and labeled in compliance with 49 C.F.R. § 172 regarding hazardous materials shipments, and must be shipped in accordance with the UPS Guide for Shipping Ground and Air Hazardous Materials.

About Documentation and Labeling

    * The shipper must use Delivery Confirmation Adult Signature Required service for each package containing a firearm, including a handgun, and affix a UPS label requesting an adult signature upon delivery.
    * The labeling and outer box markings on all firearms shipments should not identify the contents as containing a firearm. Labeling, including the shipper's and consignee's abbreviated names on the shipping label or air shipping document, must be non-descriptive.

Getting Your Firearm Shipment to UPS

    * Firearms (including handguns) may be shipped only through a UPS Scheduled Pickup Account (specifically, Daily Pickup, Daily On-Route Pickup, UPS Smart Pickup, and Day-Specific Pickup), or through a UPS Customer Center (counters at UPS operational facilities). Note: Firearms (including handguns) are not accepted for shipment via, UPS Drop Boxes, UPS On-Call PickupSM, or at locations of The UPS Store® or any third party retailer.
    * When you are shipping a package that contains a handgun, you must verbally notify the UPS driver or UPS Customer Center clerk.
    * See the terms and conditions in the UPS Tariff/Terms and Conditions of Service for information regarding firearm shipments.

[coyotejoe]

Thank you for the definitive word Mr. Quick, we should probably all print out a copy and take with us when we got to the PO or UPS.

[quickdtoo]

That's what I'd do, educate the ignorant so they don't tell the next customer the same BS! 

Tim

[hillbill]

what the law actually is dont really mean anything at your local post office or ups shipping point.i recently tried to ship a cap and ball pistol. of my 3 local post offices, 1 just refused absolutely,regardless of what the law was. 2 didnt know anything. i had to call a larger post office and get the actuall page and paragraph of their rules.and then go to my little local post office and they just said hey, ok if thats the rules go ahead.its amzeing how many people have no idea about their job.i actually wished i had just insured and shipped it as machined parts and been done with it.

[Ladobe]

That's what I'd do, educate the ignorant so they don't tell the next customer the same BS! 

Tim

 

Sounds good on paper Tim, but you know better than most (yes, I remember what you did) as well as I do that counter clerks that don't want to be taught anything won't be, and more often than not are diffensive when a mere customer tries to do so.   Counter clerks usually don't know at any of the carriers, so put up red flags if it is a firearm no matter what kind.    Calling any of the carriers "800" numbers will get you as many different answers as the number of folks you talk to on calls to each of them, so it's not just the clerks.     Perusing carrier web sites can confirm answers, if you can find them and if you can get the drift as they are written.   Some are buried in the web site though and hard to find.   Even so it's a rare day when you can ship a disclosed firearm without at least some hassle nowdays unless you don't disclose its a firearm to the clerk.   The carriers have their own ideas of what is a firearm whether it agrees with BATF regs or not as well.   So IOW, I've shipped a lot of farm tools or implements or precision parts that were from quite to very expensive.   

UPS.   It's pretty common knowledge that you can not ship firearms or OMG packages from a UPS substation (ie a UPS Store) by their regs, and instead have to take them to a bussiness center/terminal.   Per their web site they cannot have anything on the package that suggests its a firearm and you are not suppose to disclose it is a firearm to a counter clerk.    Have you ever met one at UPS yet that doesn't ask you what's in the package and is persistent about it?   I haven't.   UPS is fresh to mind as I researched it again when I recently finally agreed to sell and ship a modern rifle to CA myself after I researched CA's newest laws on doing so.  My FFL won't transfer to CA, period, and the local ones that will add a stiff surcharge on top of their other fees.   But the buyers FFL in this case would accept from an individual out of state and is a member of the state system now in place there.   So it was perfectly legal for me to ship it direct to that FFL as an individual, didn't cost me a dime more (actually saved me transfer fees on my end), and I didn't have to belong to the CA system or call for a shipping authorization number to do it like an FFL would.   Long story short, shipping "long guns" to CA yourself is no big deal at all if you can get past a carriers counter clerk, and certainly is not justification for the high extra fees many FFL's charge to transfer to CA (who only have to fill out a form to join the CA system once and then make one LD call for a shipping authorization number for each firearm they transfer). 

I prefer to ship all firearms, including the muzzies FFL to FLL.   It puts the all the responsibility on the FL's and carriers, legal and other wise, so the trasfer fees I pay are well worth that to me. 

I have my FFL ship all handguns USPS Priority Mail as they are always my first choice of the shipping carriers, but I have some of the long guns now go FedEx Ground instead of UPS or the USPS as they do so for a lower cost usually.

The best side of all of this is that I have never had a firearm I've shipped damaged by any of them, despite a few back room gorillas trying.  It pays to do the extra time, effort and cost when packaging IOW.

FWIW,

Larry

(fat finger edits for spelling)

[quickdtoo]

From the perspective of a retiree from the USPS after 32yrs service with about 10 years of that behind the counter as an acceptance clerk, you need to be persistent and ask to speak to a supervisor or manager if the acceptance clerk has doubts about accepting mailable items, been there done that for my own clerks that weren't sure, unfortunately ignorance can happen on either side of the counter which applies to UPS or Fedex as well. 

Tim

[Rangr44]

FWIW, as long as you are acting within the law, the mailer is under NO obligation to run their mouth, regarding the contents of the parcel they are mailing via USPS.

In fact, as posted above, the LAW explicitly prohibits marking the exterior of parcels containing firearms as containing such.

The mailer/sender is obligated to truthfully answer ONLY the questions the Postal Clerk askes every parcel mailer - Does the parcel contain anything hazardous, flammable, explosive, fragile, etc ?

Volunteering anything else, besides giving an insurance value, etc, is either guilt or bragging - and just asking for trouble, IMHO.

.

[bubba.50]

boy,
after listenin' to all this i'm sure glad i live in a small rural southern community where everyone has grown-up with or around guns and don't have all these phobias about'em. even the little one-lady post office is user-friendly, having hunters and shooters in her own family. now, if she can just keep dodgin' the shut-downs that are goin' thru the system i'll be alright. good luck and have a good'en neighbors, bubba.

[Swampman]

I ship rifles, shotguns, and muzzleloaders through USPS to FFLs and back to the factory and never have a problem.  I ship ammo and handguns FedEx no problem.

With muzzleloaders you don't have to tell them what you're shipping.  With firearms it has to be in writing at my post office.

[quickdtoo]

Postal statues consider firearms as restricted material which may be hazardous, that's why you must notify the accepting clerk you're mailing a firearm and why they may require you to show that a firearm is unloaded. The penalty for knowingly violating federal statutes is up to 5yrs in prison and up to $10,000 in fines, so it doesn't make much sense to deceive the acceptance clerk. 

Tim

http://pe.usps.gov/text/dmm300/601.htm#wp1103548

8.2 Basic Premise

The basic premise of the postal mailability statutes is that anything "which may kill or injure another, or injure the mails or other property..." is nonmailable. Several statutory exceptions to this rule permit mailings of otherwise nonmailable matter under specified conditions. Statutory exceptions apply to live scorpions, poisonous drugs and medicines, poisons for scientific use, switchblade knives, firearms, motor vehicle master keys, locksmithing devices, and abortive and contraceptive devices. The statutes also provide that the USPS may, by regulation, permit the mailing, under required conditions of preparation and packing, of potentially harmful matter not "outwardly or of [its] own force dangerous or injurious to life, health, or property." The standards in 8.0 summarize the statutory prohibitions and exceptions. The mailability standards that apply to perishable, hazardous, and restricted matter are detailed in 9.0, 10.0, and 12.0, respectively. Publication 52, Hazardous, Restricted, and Perishable Mail, contains additional clarification and further describes the conditions of preparation and packaging under which the USPS accepts for mailing potentially harmful matter that is otherwise nonmailable. Publication 52 also contains detailed information on the mailability of specific hazardous materials.