Author Topic: Cast Bevel base bullet and obturation  (Read 1627 times)

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Offline hornady

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Cast Bevel base bullet and obturation
« on: February 14, 2011, 03:57:01 AM »
 This is an old discussion, but has never been totally dismissed or agreed on. If all things are equal, Alloy used and bullet to barrel fit. I believe lack of bullet obturation to be a factor in barrel leading, with bevel base cast bullets.(gas cutting). I have been in many discussions over the years, some with bullet manufacturers at gun shows, with those that mass-produce bevel base bullets for retail sale. I do not pretend to be an expert at casting, all though I have cast and shot cast bullets for years, and I also know the bullet lube plays a large part in sealing gasses of cast bullets.
It just seems reasonable to me, that the design of the bevel base bullet, cannot obdurate to the point of sealing a cast bullet at its base, thus promoting gas cutting.
But then there are those that do not believe obturation occurs in cast bullet. The reason for this inquiry, I read an article in Handloader titled Cast Bullet Myth Busting By Mike Venturino. Mr. Venturino is also of the belief that cast bullet obturation is a natural occurrence with cast bullets, but never got into the Bevel base bullet discussion in this article. An article I once read on the subject suggested commercial casters made bevel base bullets for their convenience in commercial casting machines, they are simply easier to mass-produce. And pass the bevel base bullets on to shooters as a seating benefit; knowing they do in fact promotes leading.
But then this is my opinion on Bevel Base bullets, what do you think. And I do not mean to step on anyone’s toes; these are my beliefs and opinions. Formed from Articles I have read over the years in casting books and magazine articles and personnel experience with these bullets..

Offline Junior1942

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Re: Cast Bevel base bullet and obturation
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2011, 01:46:46 AM »
I think obturation occurs in all cast bullets and in most jacketed bullets. It's the only explanation for why the .308" 220r Hornady RN jacketed bullet shoots so well in my .312" bore Mosin-Nagants.

Offline Bigeasy

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Re: Cast Bevel base bullet and obturation
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2011, 02:11:23 AM »
I think, in theory, you are correct.  But I also believe obturation does occur, to some extent, in all cast lead of normal, usable hardness.  Velocity is also another factor that is a consideration.

My experience, at least with cast bullets in handguns, is that the most important factor in reducing leading is matching a bullet to the chamber mouth / bore diameter of the firearm being used.  When using bullets of less then perfect fit, gas checks have been useful in reducing gas cutting, and subsequent leading.

Larry
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Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Cast Bevel base bullet and obturation
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2011, 11:46:03 PM »
All bullets bump up to a certain degree. To me the less it happens the better. How can you expect a bullet to basicaly change shape when fired to do it exactly the same every time. Ive allways had better luck with harder bullets at any speed for accuracy. Keep  in mind though that if one of my guns is out of spec so bad that it would take a bullet bumping up to make it shoot well I fix the gun or sell it. A properly dimentioned gun will about allways shoot better as hardness increases. I dont like bevel based bullets but it has nothing to do with bumping up. The reason i dont like them is ive never had much luck with accuracy with them. I think its a combination of two things. FIrst the burning powder doesnt have a nice flat base to push against. Ive shot many many thousands of cast bullets and have found that even a reject bullet with a poor nose or groves from casting to cold will shoot darned near as well as a perfect bullet but if the flaw is in the base accuracy goes out the door. Also bevel based bullets tend to lead more. My thoughts on that go again toward the shape of the base. Hot gases instead of pushing evenly on the base are channneled to the sides of the bullet by the bore and these gassed no doubt work in between the bore and the bullet and cause cutting which in turn causes leading. I hate to make blanket statements on anything conserning casting and shooting cast bullets as there has been times that certain guns of mine have done just fine with bevel based bullets
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Offline GH1

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Re: Cast Bevel base bullet and obturation
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2011, 02:59:35 PM »
I believe cast bb bullets obturate. The reason I think so is when I first started shooting cast in my .357 I used Bullseye, and the leading was pretty severe.. Then I switched to AA#9 and using the same bullets most of my leading disappeared.
I believe this is due to the hotter AA#9 loads expanding the base of the bullet. Because if it didn't the leading would be worse with the stronger loads.
I've since switched to a .001" larger diameter bullet and my leading disappeared.
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Offline BBF

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Re: Cast Bevel base bullet and obturation
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2011, 08:35:07 AM »
I've only used one type of BB bullets from a commercial source. A hard alloy type. The Handi 45-70 did not like them at all.
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Offline mdi

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Re: Cast Bevel base bullet and obturation
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2011, 08:03:03 AM »
My first thought is no, they won't obturate. The gasses will not only push on the base, but the bevel as well, in effect making the bevel dia smaller. Mebbe like an oblong baloon; if you push on the bottom, with a flat hand, it'll get bigger in dia. If you squeeze the bottom,  it gets smaller, but longer. Hey, just a thought...

Offline jhalcott

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Re: Cast Bevel base bullet and obturation
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2011, 10:10:13 AM »
If you see a high speed video of a soccer ball kicked by a good player , you will see "obturation" I believe the kick from the faster powders is enough to expand the base of most bullets. SOME loads will NOT deliver this "kick" ! They will cause leading. Bump up the power and problem is solved. This MAY mean a different powder or change in charge weight. Another method is to use a slightly SOFTER alloy to get a "bump up".
  I personally do NOT use BB cast bullets, preferring gas check designs for nearly all my shooting. I do use them once in a while in my .45 ACP plinker loads.