White Rifles Going Out of Business?

[RandyWakeman]

A pity, but when a company can't pay its bills-- it sure looks that way. Anybody know different?

[Benjaminxjr]

Mr. Wakeman, why don't you post this question over at Huntamerica.com, thats where the most knowledgeable White shooters are? :roll:

[simonkenton]

If they are I wouldn't be surprised.
I was interested in buying a White back 6-8 months ago. I found a company in chaos. I went to their web site and checked their dealer listing. I called 9 dealers listed in Ga, SC, and NC. Three of the White "dealers" were no longer in business.
Of the other 6 White "dealers", the manager at two of them had never heard of White rifles!
At the other four gun shops, I was told that White was out of business.
This did not make a good impression on me. Christ almighty, give me a hundred bucks and I could update the dealer list on the White web site.
I sent the White Co. an  email about this sorry crap. I got hold of the manager and he apologized. He said they had a "traveling rep" out of Florida who would come by my house in Atlanta within a month and show me a White. He never showed. The manager did send me a White baseball hat, though.
If they are going out of business it is too bad. I have spent a lot of time at Huntamerica and there are 6 or 8 White rifle owners over there, they all love their rifles. There is even a White dealer over there, of course, he is in Hawaii.
These guys all say the White is uniquely accurate easy to clean, and shoulders up real nice. I wouldn't know, I have never seen one.  I did just kill a deer with a shiny new Savage, though.

[RandyWakeman]

Mr. Wakeman, why don't you post this question over at Huntamerica.com, thats where the most knowledgeable White shooters are? :roll:

More knowledgeable as to the company's viability than Steve Brown, Mike Wills, and Kasey of White Rifles, LLC? This has nothing to do with whether you might happen to like their guns or not.

[Benjaminxjr]

No Randy, the more pertinent question may be as to why you are slamming White, why do you feel the need to post this, who are you looking out for here, what is behind this, what is your agenda, are they next on your dung list, this is to further what cause, are you really looking out for me :-D , well that ought to do it for now and keep you rambling on for awhile.

[RandyWakeman]

If that is an attempt at answering a question or providing information, I think you might to be able to do better-- if you really try. :shock:

[woodseye]

No Randy, the more pertinent question may be as to why you are slamming White, why do you feel the need to post this, who are you looking out for here

I don't find stating facts about a ML'er companys current financial state to be "slamming them" if in fact they are getting shakey it would be very good info to post on the inline forums to make future buyers aware of whats happening. The need to post this is as obivious as posting info about any ML'ing company troubles, or would you rather it be a surprise for future White owners?. I hope Randy stays unbiased as he has in the past and doesn't "look out" for anyone to the neglecting of the truth.

Liking a ML'er brand is good but viewing anything posted you don't like as having a deep hidden agenda and being a slam seems to be a stretch and conspiracy theories seem a bit paranoid to most.

I wish White all the good fortune in the world but don't think hiding any information that may not portray the company in a positive light is very productive at all.The above post by a potential buyer illustrates that its good to know these things going into a purchase, not after its been made.

I also see he has posted it on HA as well as it should be on any ML'er forum.

   woods

[Wolfhound]

I don't find stating facts about a ML'er companys current financial state to be "slamming them" if in fact they are getting shakey it would be very good info to post on the inline forums to make future buyers aware of whats happening. The need to post this is as obivious as posting info about any ML'ing company troubles, or would you rather it be a surprise for future White owners?

No kidding. While I am intrigued about White muzzleloaders, I am not  considering getting one. I read in one of my earliest BlackPowder Hunting magazines a letter from a guy who had one. I don't remember exactly what happened, but he had a defective rifle he'd bought from one of the earlier companies that owned White and the current company could not fix his rifle or give him parts (said something about design changes). They also wouldn't send him a replacement from thier current line. Now while I don't blame the company (after all they didn't make that rifle) for not making it right even though it would have been the nice thing to do, he made a statement that is a good one to heed: ckeck the background of the company that your interested in buying from. If they haven't been around for a while, or have had multiple owners, there is probably more risk that if you need repairs or warranty work that it won't be there. It's just a question of how much risk you are willing to assume.

[woodseye]

Hey Wolfhound, How goes it?

Buyers of the American made lifetime warranty Redfield scopes are finding out now what happens when a new company takes over and doesn't honor any previous warranties before their ownership.

White makes a good product, I hope they get sorted out and continue to produce quality ML'ers for purchase. I do however respect Randy for speaking the truth even when it steps on toes and causes discomfort to some.

    woods

[Wolfhound]

Not too bad. I've been keeping pretty busy lately. I haven't had much time to go out and make any smoke lately. Hopefully I'll be able to get out this week and do so.

[Wolfhound]

What was his name? Email him and ask if he taken care of. Ask him how his rifle shoots. Or just shut up if you can't do any better than that. Are you another RW want to be? Gee!

I won't put his name online without his permission (no email listed), but he's from Mountain Home, Idaho. It's in the Spring 2002 issue of Blackpowder Hunting. It's the same issue where they introduce Triple Seven powder, the Omega, and the Disc Extreme. I just dug up the issue out of my Muzzleloader info Archives.

BTW, Surveyor I've noticed that if anyone criticizes White rifles you get awfuly offended and abusive. I was just stating what I had read. I've got nothing against White. Like I said I am intrigued by them (partly because White is my last name :wink: ), but due to the shaky nature of the company I won't spend my hard earned money with them. If they solve their problems and become a better company than they currently are, I would consider buying one. If they continue to do poorly I will not buy anything from them because of their lack of customer service. I have dealt with companies that have poor customer service and it's not something I care to repeat.

[Wolfhound]

Come Wolf give me some thing I can beleive.

Fine. I'm going up to my inlaws Christmas Eve. I'll scan the page in question and email it to you. Just PM me your email addy between now and then. I've got a recovered powerbelt I need to try to scan anyway.

[Flatland Hunter]

Woodsy, there was no "statement of fact", "truth", "good info", or anything "pertinent" in Randy's post. Just a statement of opinion and then an open ended question... where is all the info? Where did he get a hold of a copy White's corporate check book? What sort of "proof" does he have that they aren't paying their bills?

I am of the opinion that White is in trouble... but what proof do I have? None... The only person to state any facts was simonkenton... and that is old news and complained about often on Whites forum.

There are many things we do know: no composite stocks, no new .451 barrels from Criterion as of yet, people are having a rough time getting 2003 catalogues (I have tried twice to get another one and am having no luck), no nation wide network of dealers. Those are facts that are confirmable, and have been confirmed.

Nothing in Randy's initial post is worth consideration... as of right now it is just speculation... unless of course he has proof that White is not paying their bills. Until that time... that and this post is just so much electrons in internet space.

[RandyWakeman]

Nothing in Randy's initial post is worth consideration... as of right now it is just speculation... unless of course he has proof that White is not paying their bills.

And of course I do.

[woodseye]

Hey Flat......I have disagreed with Randy a few times and we've not shared some opinions but I've NEVER found him to make rash or untrue statements about anything and so far even your own post seems to prove rather than disprove his current statement. If whites not in trouble lets see some proof to the contarary. Wow seems to be some overly defensive white owners that don't like hearing their companies in trouble and will name call or do anything to make it sound untrue.

As with the Pre 64 Winchester, Belgium made Browning, Ithca, Fox, they'll have a piece of history to shoot

Sorry but white doesn't jump to mind with the likes of these classics listed above. white is a long ways form achieving this level of value and tradition if ever.

Or just shut up if you can't do any better than that. Are you another RW want to be? Gee!

Respectful post there Jules.............doubt you'd want to be told the same thing about your opinions huh?

Wolf, offended and defensive. Have you ever shoot a White? White owner talk about White Rifles.

Don't sound like Wolf is the one thats offended and defensive thats for sure. So only white owners can talk about white rifles? I see on the "white forum" on HA white owners are quick to talk about other makes of ML'ers and not to kindly either.

BTW, Surveyor I've noticed that if anyone criticizes White rifles you get awfuly offended and abusive.  

From these posts I'd say more than just you have noticed this trend Wolf.

I am of the opinion that White is in trouble... but what proof do I have? None

Sounds like some may know more than you Flat.

Woodsy, there was no "statement of fact", "truth", "good info", or anything "pertinent" in Randy's post

I'll agree to disagree with ya Flat......I found it to be worth posting and stand by my post above. I'm not a RW wanna be and Randy probably knows that better than most but I do believe in telling it like it is and not dancing around the truth in this ever changing world of ML'ing. I mean it when I wish white all the best in what ever current troubles they may be in but no company is so special that the truth shouldn't be told about their bad fortune as well as their good. Any manufactures product I own doesn't make me blind to any strengths or shortcomings they may have as a company. Who knows.......maybe they'll hire some of you guys to work for them with such blind loyalty..............but then again they may not be hiring right now.

    woods

[big6x6]

"A breech plug that has been tested to over 10,000 dry fires and counting?"

That was for one particular breech plug, mine was never tested once.

[Flatland Hunter]

Woodseye, I don't believe I name called once... and I did leave myself an out, "unless of course he (Randy) has proof".

Randy, still hasn't provided any facts, proof, etc... just a couple of sentences. That was my point. "A pity..." No facts, no undergirding info, just a statement. At least what others have posted good and bad can mostly be confirmed. Randy posted back and clarified that he does have "proof" that White is not paying it's "bills". I have no reason to distrust Randy, maybe what motivates him at times ... but not necessarily a distrust of him :wink:     .

I never said White wasn't in trouble... I believe they are going through a rough time right now. Do I hope they weather it? Yes! I only wished to point out that no facts or statements were truly provided until simonkenton posted... then of course I posted with "verifiable" difficulties. Randy's was not verifiable, still isn't... unless of course you have access to White's books, or have access to the books of a company that White owes money to. Which Randy very well could be a company that White owes money to. All we have is Randy's cryptic statements to go by.

And I do not need to prove that White is in good condition... Randy is the one that needs to provide proof, he is the one that opened this can of worms :twisted: .

Am I a White shooter? Yes! Am I a Knight shooter? Yes! An A&H shooter? Yes! Well, until I traded for my Knight. Do I like my ML's? Yes! Have I ever torn down another ML company? No! I have tried to steer others away from CVA and Traditions, but I have not openly ridiculed them (that I can remember).

Do others know more about White and Knight than me? Yes!! Never claimed to know more than what I post. By the way, thanks for re-stating what I already admitted to... that really took a lot of thought.

Did I personally attack you Woodseye? I don't think so... just responded to yours and Randy's posts. Never called you a RW wannabe either. I did shorten your handle to woodsy, no disrespect intended if that is what you took for name calling. Woods, please stop throwing such a wide net with blanket statements like "blind loyalty", "overly defensive White owners", and "dancing around the truth". I don't believe my posts have reflected any of that, here, at HA, or on Whites own forum. Where praise or criticism was deserving that is what was posted.

I still don't get where you think Randy originally posted a "statement of fact", "truth", "good info", or anything "pertinent". His intial statement was more like a piece of gossip shared over the back fence between neighbors. Now his follow-up may be a different animal all together... but we don't know that.

As far as Randy making "rash" statements... I think "calculating" would be a better term. No disrespect in that either... Randy seems to be good with "sleight of" word and hand :wink: . That is what makes him entertaining :-D .

Has Randy's statement stirred up debate? Yes!!! As it was intended to do...

[RandyWakeman]

That was for one particular breech plug, mine was never tested once.

Chuck,

I believe that if your "A Round With White in 80 Days" experience was chronicled, it would send a "chill" up most people's spines.

[woodseye]

Did I personally attack you Woodseye? I don't think so... just responded to yours and Randy's posts. Never called you a RW wannabe either. I did shorten your handle to woodsy, no disrespect intended if that is what you took for name calling. Woods, please stop throwing such a wide net with blanket statements like "blind loyalty", "overly defensive White owners", and "dancing around the truth". I don't believe my posts have reflected any of that, here, at HA, or on Whites own forum. Where praise or criticism was deserving that is what was posted.

Anybody that supports Randy is called a RW wanna be at some point so I thought I'd address that and get it covered before it even happened(just as Wolf was accused above). No you didn't personally attack me Flatland and I didn't you either( I addressed two of your quotes and responded, you are referring to quote responses I made to another and acting like they were to you which if you didn't make the quote why would they be?). You'll know if I kick it up to heated debate, trust me, as I'm very "to the point"( I consider attacks to be of a personal nature and have no need to employ such childish behavior). I will use the statements I wish and if they trouble you I guess my advice is don't read them. The name calling only applied to any posters inclined to do so, if that doesn't apply to you than no need to take offence. I speak in reference sometimes to multiple posts by multiple posters perhaps even  on several forums since they are on here they know who I'm speaking to(if thats not you than relax). If any of my post statements like "blind loyalty" and "overly defensive" which by the way are demonstrated in posts above in this very thread and "dancing around the truth" which occurs on most forums with daily regularity doesn't fit with how YOU choose to post thats fine, but its how I post and I call a spade a spade and let the facts bear things out. If Randys response to you that he has proof of his statements don't satisfy you, than take it up with Randy, perhaps by PM.

I hope we can get along on this forum and let our hunting and shooting experiences be of use to each other, but I don't change how I post for anyone and tell it like it is wherever I post. Debate is what fuels these forums and it would be a boring place if we all agreed, when I see someone telling another poster to shut up it sounds like debate has moved up to personal attack and thats where things become counter productive. I hope we agree on that and you'll find I never resort to personal attacks, just debate and rebuttal which is where its been with you to this point. I'll agree to disagree with ya and move on unless you wish to continue the debate, your choice.

      cheers woods

[big6x6]

"Chuck,

I believe that if your "A Round With White in 80 Days" experience was chronicled, it would send a "chill" up most people's spines."

It would.  Except for the spineless.

[Flatland Hunter]

Woods, I was addressing those statements that were in paragraphs that you addressed to me or my comments. Thanks for clarifying how you post. I will be more attentive in the future to ignore (for personal application) those portions that I know do not pertain to me.

I do so enjoy Randy's pot stirring... it is fun to see the scraps of info Randy throws out and how they are picked up and then expanded on by others. Well, I can't really say scraps of info for the origianl post, maybe I can call it a "leading statement". Placed there in the hopes others would pick it up and run with it... without any real info... well done :wink: ...

[woodseye]

I very much enjoy Randys "pot stirring" and feel it adds a lot to otherwise boring forum talk that gets kinda stale after the seasons end as we all begin to get a touch of cabin fever.

Placed there in the hopes others would pick it up and run with it... without any real info... well done  ...

Although I would like to bask in your encouragement, I have to give credit where credits due and you seem to be doing as good of job as anyone else in the thread on picking up and expounding, otherwise we wouldn't be chatting right now.

I don't find stating facts about a ML'er companys current financial state to be "slamming them" if in fact they are getting shakey it would be very good info to post on the inline forums to make future buyers aware of whats happening

If you note the "if in fact" in my first line of first post I hardly view that running with Randys statement and in fact would wait to hear further on this subject before making an absolute decision either way on where their exact fianical condition lies.

I'm more amused by the almost fanatical defence the white camp mounts to anything said concerning the company in less than a flattering light. I think this is what Randy was playing off of, but then again hes the magic man so who knows.......... :-)  

It does keep this thread up near the top and there are a lot of opinions being discussed both pro and con. I was going to go into some discussion of why white may be finding themselves in the position of needing to embrace certain new to them concepts to stay in pace with this faster is better minded ML'er buying public but maybe thats a bit much for right now, maybe later.........

       Keep Shootin'  woods

[Underclocked]

Did any of you read this post?

And, of course HE DOES!

Nothing in Randy's initial post is worth consideration... as of right now it is just speculation... unless of course he has proof that White is not paying their bills.

And of course I do.

[woodseye]

I did UC.......and I believe he does. I've never had occasion to find anything he's said to me to be suspect and some of the phone conversations we've had involved discussing a lot of different things in different areas of expertise and hes always been very forthright and honest on any subject.

    Some really can't see the forest for all the dad burned trees  

         woods

[Flatland Hunter]

UC, I read it and commented on it, twice I believe... what else need be said or acknowledged?

I have no quarrell with Randy, just wanted to point out that those who initially responded to the Randy's first post ran with scraps without a bone of factual information. That is all, that is what I have said from the beginning. That is how most gossip begins... but Randy then backed up his initial post with another post, still devoid of actual fact, except for his word... which thus far I have not found him to be untruthful or untrustworthy. Though he has been mistaken at times, which does not make him untrustworthy.

I am not particularly enamored with White the "company" right now... but I am enamored and frankly in awe of the product that Doc White has put into the ML community.

I hope White Rifles gets it together or Sups91 will buy them up out of bankruptcy.

[woodseye]

Randys opening statement is true and supported by undeniable facts from more than one source. Nothing for me to further debate as the truth need not be debatted, but simply accepted.............and I agree.........it is a sad point when a company reaches the point where it can no longer meet its current and not so current obligations.

     woods

[Walker]

Consumers have a right to know. That's something that may not be apparent to White. They whacked my thread.

[Flatland Hunter]

I also have had threads and posts whacked on White's forum... it is a shame really. All most folks want is a straight answer instead there is silence, and silence can be deafening.

[Wolfhound]

Sometimes silence speaks louder than words.

[big6x6]

"I am not particularly enamored with White the "company" right now... but I am enamored and frankly in awe of the product that Doc White has put into the ML community."

I couldn't agree MORE.  Personally, I would LIKE to own another White rifle, just not one from THIS "company."  I can't believe they have gone on as long as they have.  I believe SOMEONE could have a very strong company with just the products they have.  What's NOT to like about a White 98 EXCEPT "the company."  

What's Whites' best rifle?  Isn't it a .451 98?  Do you know I was told in August .451 98s would be available in September?  The obvious question to me is "Why are you out of .451 98s in the the first place?"  What if Ford had no F-150s?  What if Leupold had no Vari-X IIIs?  What if Intel ran out of Pentium IVs?....and REMAINED OUT for four going on five months?

I told Randy back during the first part of September "I bet White will not have any more .451 98s during the year 2003."  Well, I have six days to go.

Their website is the BEST indicator of things to come:

1. Want to get caught up on lastest happenings, check out the Spring 2002 - Volume III of On Target Newsletter.
2. Need a White Rifles dealer...From the looks of their "dealer locator" they have plenty.  I woke someone UP when I called one of the numbers!  How many ACTUAL STOCKING White Rifle dealers are there?
3. Black composite stock still listed as an option.
4. Does anyone know what rifle/caliber/stock configuration I COULD click on and order OTHER THAN a Thunderbolt?

So the question is: How many here would not have an absolute FIT if this were YOUR companys' website?

I look foward to the day I can own another .451 White 98.