Author Topic: what do you mean northen agggression  (Read 14279 times)

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Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #180 on: May 09, 2011, 11:03:58 AM »
I hope I aint addin' fuel to anyones fire after what seems a nice closure to a vigorous debate, but...

It seems there's alot of people kinda ardently repeating that they're repeating FACTS.  That's in regards to Martin Luther King's nature, Speeches from Lincoln, percentages of the South who owned slaves, Mary Lincoln owning slaves after the War of Northern Aggression, etc.

Can I get y'all to cite a few sources, and post some link that support your views, so I can better understand your perceptions and maybe learn a little something?

I sure appreciate any information y'all can give!

Thanks!

Welcome Not the 10th Man glad to see you. I have to second that which our Mod stated both to the stickies and his other links. There are those among us that will not supply such as you ask. I have no clue as to their lack of decorum, alas it is what it is. Yet there are others more than willing to help and just a little reading of this forum will lead you to those who will versus those who won't. Have fun, its a great forum to learn from.

As R.E. Lee would say watch out for "Those people!"
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline williamlayton

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #181 on: May 11, 2011, 12:44:09 AM »
Like the scriptures history is not one studied from one perspective but from a whole.
Read opinion, the same as reading commentary, as a matter of fact historians are commentarians.
One incident, out of place, does not tell the whole of the story.
Why ask for someone to tell you what happened. Study it for yourownself, the histories are available.
Like the scriptures, there are multitudes of commentaries. Unlike these commentaries, the scriptures have one essential truth and they are not contradictory.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #182 on: May 12, 2011, 04:27:36 AM »
I'm sorry would you repeat that , please?

The poster asked for references to stated facts/opinions thus to this muddled brain he is not asking to be told what is but wants proof of what is said. You know, like asking for a reference from the Bible during Bible study, or is one better off reading and learning the Bible in an empty room, than from others who might know more and be willing to share that which they can back up with facts.

Surely one can not obtain knowledge from such a sitting as you describe. If you are so sure you are correct please give me one instance where man has accomplished anything from such as you suggest?
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline Not the 10th Man

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #183 on: May 12, 2011, 06:52:57 AM »
Ga. Windbreak- Thank you for the warm welcome, and kind words.  The forementioned links have been a great source of information, and I have enjoyed them, and even begun emailing some of the links home for my wife and children to enjoy and learn from.

For the sake of others, perhaps I should provide some clarification, as to my intent- particularly with regard to my initial post...

First of all...and I feel the need to provide absolute clarity here...I aint askin' NOBODY to do my thinking for me....I happen to be quite adept at thinking for myself- something that's been recognized as an occasional flaw by my peers, teachers, elders, and bosses, throughout my childhood and adult life.

At this point I must admit, that though I am in my mid-thirties, and raised in small town Georgia...I AM a product of the Public School System ie; "The Civil War was about the good Northern folks freeing them poor slaves from the evile Southern slave holders"  I once came trotting in to my family dinner proudly trumpetting what I had just learned about the Civil War, only to be harshly rebuked.  There I was told in VERY colorful language that there was no "Civil War" and to NEVER use that term again.  I was then educated that the War of Northern Aggression had nothing to do with slavery, and everything to do with taxation and states rights.

I've taken a passing interest in the War of Northern Aggression, as I do with much history, but the problem I find currently is the same as I found when I was ten years old- Not many folks are capable of objectivity.

As the old saying goes:  "Incredible claims demand incredible proof"  If I were to come in and post that "The North won the War of Northern Aggression because they had airplanes and rockets" it would indeed, be an incredible claim.  From there it would be expected that I reveal my sources- provide a Bibliography of sorts.   Upon perusal of my sources, one would be able to determine whether there is infact any merit to my claim.  If I cited "National Whack-a-doodle Grocery Store Gazzette" a person would be less inclined to pursue the information presented in my post, and could then move on to more productive things in life.  If I were to cite "Smithsonian Institute" or NLC...well then, perhaps one would deem that their time would NOT be wasted in the pursuit of further information on this topic.  Furthermore, it would be rather rude of me to post such a topic, and then dericively  snort and say "well, it's all over the internet, if you're not too lazy to find it yourself" thereby placing the burden of proof of my incredible claim upon YOU, the casual reader.  That would not be a way to enhance and better ourselves.

Hopefully that explains my mind set a little.  I'm not calling anyone a liar- there are just some very interesting statements made that I have never been exposed to before- Call me young and naive if you will.  A citation of sources tends to help one figure out the "fact" from often over recited opinions, thereby allowing the clarity to reach my own, better educated opinion.  The "Storm Front Militia" is not, for instance what I would deem a credible source.  Nor would be information from the "Southern Poverty Foundation", or NAACP.

Once again, I have had alot of fun perusing this forum, and learning when I've had the time to dedicate to it.  (I am afterall, at work in a remote oilfield, camp environment)

I hope y'all have a good one!


Offline williamlayton

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #184 on: May 12, 2011, 02:23:28 PM »
As Moses said to the rich man in hell, when he asked for someone to go to his brothers, they have the scriptures and they are resonsible.
The books are out there--get 'em and read--come to your own conclusions.
I rarely ask for a scripture refrence---I ask what the scriptures say.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Not the 10th Man

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #185 on: May 12, 2011, 02:50:48 PM »
A wonderful thoughtful post, with profoundly thought provoking information, and a cited source of  that could not possibly be refuted by any person beyond the age of reason....

Offline ironfoot

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #186 on: May 12, 2011, 03:30:16 PM »
Lincoln's anti slavery views were well known as result of the Lincoln/Douglas debates and Lincoln's Coopers Union speech. Lincoln was elected on an anti-slavery Republican platform. Lincoln was elected President of the whole country, not just the North. The South would not abide by the results of the presidential election, and engaged in armed revolt.  The North fought to preserve the Union and representative democracy. The South fought to perpetuate it's significant investment in "property" in  the form of human slaves.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln%E2%80%93Douglas_debates_of_1858

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/cooper.htm

http://www.cprr.org/Museum/Ephemera/Republican_Platform_1860.html

http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres31.html

http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres32.html

http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html

http://americancivilwar.com/documents/index.html

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/gettysburg.htm

http://www.filibustercartoons.com/CSA.htm

Lincoln's last speech:

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/last.htm

"For the first time in a public setting, Lincoln expressed his support for black suffrage. This statement incensed John Wilkes Booth, a member of the audience, who vowed, "That is the last speech he will make." A white supremacist and Confederate activist, Booth made good on his threat three days later."
Act the way you would like to be, and soon you will be the way you act.

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #187 on: May 12, 2011, 11:29:06 PM »
Lincoln's anti slavery views were well known as result of the Lincoln/Douglas debates and Lincoln's Coopers Union speech.

Sure they were. ::)

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/young8.html

Quote
"The whole nation is interested that the best use shall be made of these territories. We want them for the homes of free white people." ~ Lincoln, on whether blacks – slave or free – should be allowed in the new territories in the west, October 16, 1854.

"I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position. I have never said anything to the contrary." ~ Lincoln, Aug. 21, 1858, in remarks stating his belief that blacks were naturally inferior to whites, which was a nearly universal belief on the part of whites in both the North and South long before and long after the Civil War.

"Root, hog, or die" ~ Lincoln's suggestion to illiterate and propertyless ex-slaves unprepared for freedom, Feb. 3, 1865.

"They had better be set to digging their subsistence out of the ground." ~ Lincoln in a War Department memo, April 16, 1863

"Send them to Liberia, to their own native land." ~ Lincoln, speaking in favor of ethnic cleansing all blacks from the United States.

"I cannot make it better known than it already is, that I favor colonization." ~ Lincoln, in a message to Congress, December 1, 1862, supporting deportation of all blacks from America.

"President Lincoln may colonize himself if he choose, but it is an impertinent act, on his part, to propose the getting rid of those who are as good as himself." ~ America's preeminent immediate Abolitionist and advocate of free trade, William Lloyd Garrison.

"[Lincoln] had not a drop of anti-slavery blood in his veins." ~ William Lloyd Garrison.

The comments shown here illustrate that abolition was not what motivated Lincoln. The coldness in Lincoln's remarks, the lack of thought and preparation about the process of emancipation, and how the freedman would cope without the necessary skills is readily apparent.

For every link you can supply showing lincoln's so called public anti-slavary stance I can counter with several many private and also documinted remarks showing just the opposite. Which shows that he is nothing more than a politician working the crowd versus the Savior/Saint you picture him as being, sorry!

"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #188 on: May 12, 2011, 11:46:39 PM »
As Moses said to the rich man in hell, when he asked for someone to go to his brothers, they have the scriptures and they are resonsible.
The books are out there--get 'em and read--come to your own conclusions.
I rarely ask for a scripture refrence---I ask what the scriptures say.
Blessings

Yes willy how thought provoking to use the Bible to talk down/over someone and then push their thoughts aside with "The books are out there--get 'em and read--come to your own conclusions."

WOW, I'm speechless.
 
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline williamlayton

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #189 on: May 13, 2011, 02:41:03 AM »
You know that I was called Willy---Chilly Willy forever--therefore; if you are using that to prick me, I guess you are wrong again. I like the name Willy.
So does Willy Nelson.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #190 on: May 13, 2011, 07:57:13 AM »
You know that I was called Willy---Chilly Willy forever--therefore; if you are using that to prick me, I guess you are wrong again. I like the name Willy.
So does Willy Nelson.
Blessings

You give yourself way to much import, I wouldn't waste my time "to prick" you. BTW my favorite Uncle was named Willie also. So chilly willy.
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline ironfoot

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #191 on: May 13, 2011, 08:15:30 AM »
In an era when most Southerners thought it was ok to own black people, and most Northerners were prejudiced against blacks, Lincoln wanted blacks to be free. By todays standards Lincoln would likely be viewed as prejudiced, and maybe even racist, but remember he lived in a time when by simply giving a speech endorsing negro suffrage he incurred such wrath that Booth decided to kill him. For his day Lincoln was pretty open minded about race.

Lincoln made it clear, early on, that he opposed expansion of slavery in the territorries. He tried to appease the South by declaring that he would not interfere with slavery where it already existed. He also believed that if it was not allowed to expand, it would eventually die out where it already existed. Read the Coopers Union speech. (Link in my last post.) Lincoln's assurances was not enough to appease the South. South Carolina was the first state to secede, and plainly stated it was because of the election of an anti slavery President. Read South Carolina's Declaration of Causes of Secession. (Link in my last post.) Ga.windbreak povided some quotes, but no source material, and source material is what Not the 10th Man had requested.
Act the way you would like to be, and soon you will be the way you act.

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #192 on: May 14, 2011, 12:35:45 AM »
In an era when most Southerners thought it was ok to own black people, and most Northerners were prejudiced against blacks, Lincoln wanted blacks to be free.

No he wanted to ship them all back to where they came from!

Quote
Lincoln made it clear, early on, that he opposed expansion of slavery in the territorries. He tried to appease the South by declaring that he would not interfere with slavery where it already existed. He also believed that if it was not allowed to expand, it would eventually die out where it already existed. Read the Coopers Union speech. (Link in my last post.) Lincoln's assurances was not enough to appease the South. South Carolina was the first state to secede, and plainly stated it was because of the election of an anti slavery President. Read South Carolina's Declaration of Causes of Secession. (Link in my last post.) Ga.windbreak povided some quotes, but no source material, and source material is what Not the 10th Man had requested.

So, as I understand you, you don't Deny my source (Lincoln or his saying such things) only where I got them from, PRICELESS! I stand before all stripped of my integrity! :)
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline ironfoot

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #193 on: May 14, 2011, 02:58:10 AM »
In an era when most Southerners thought it was ok to own black people, and most Northerners were prejudiced against blacks, Lincoln wanted blacks to be free.

No he wanted to ship them all back to where they came from!

If the blacks were sent back where they came from, that means they would be free, doesn't it?
Licoln realized the difficulty in integrating freed blacks into white society, and thought allowing them a country of their own might be the solution.
Why is that hard to understand?
Quote

Lincoln made it clear, early on, that he opposed expansion of slavery in the territorries. He tried to appease the South by declaring that he would not interfere with slavery where it already existed. He also believed that if it was not allowed to expand, it would eventually die out where it already existed. Read the Coopers Union speech. (Link in my last post.) Lincoln's assurances was not enough to appease the South. South Carolina was the first state to secede, and plainly stated it was because of the election of an anti slavery President. Read South Carolina's Declaration of Causes of Secession. (Link in my last post.) Ga.windbreak povided some quotes, but no source material, and source material is what Not the 10th Man had requested.

So, as I understand you, you don't Deny my source (Lincoln or his saying such things) only where I got them from, PRICELESS! I stand before all stripped of my integrity! :)

No, you don't understand. I was asking for your souce material so I can judge for myself the accuracy of the quotes, and the context in which they were made.
Act the way you would like to be, and soon you will be the way you act.

Offline DannyD

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #194 on: May 15, 2011, 04:51:08 PM »
Northern aggression is

The Yankee's coming down south and destroying everything they touch.


Also,  Please remember this the best Yankee's live at 401 National Ave.  Winchester Virginia 22601

Offline williamlayton

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #195 on: May 16, 2011, 01:03:38 PM »
I just posted this thought elsewhere---but it is worth repeating.
Do you object to the carpet bombing of Germany up until the day it surrerenderd?
have you ever talked to a dogface that objected?
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline DannyD

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #196 on: May 19, 2011, 04:25:31 PM »
Yes I do object we lost 25,000 airman with very little to show for it.   Look it up




Also,  Please remember this the best Yankee's live at 401 National Ave.  Winchester Virginia 22601

Offline williamlayton

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #197 on: May 20, 2011, 03:07:10 PM »
Nobody has ever gone to war without knowing the cost. Whats the point?
I am not in agreement that there was very little to show for it. Inaccurate, maybe---but numbers solved those problems.
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Offline Gary G

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #198 on: May 21, 2011, 05:31:46 AM »
Whats the point?
I am not in agreement that there was very little to show for it. Inaccurate, maybe---but numbers solved those problems.
Blessings

[Nobody has ever gone to war without knowing the cost. ]
Sure they do. Politicians do it all the time. Destruction is material loss to society that will never be recovered. Blow up a missile and there goes a million dollars of the peoples wealth forever, not to mention loss of life on both sides. How many beneficial things could have been constructed with the capital that was used for destruction.
The sole purpose of government is to protect your liberty. The Constitution is not to restrict the people, but to restrict government.  Ron Paul

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

“Everyone wants to live at the expense of the State. They forget that the State lives at the expense of everyone.” — Frederic Bastiat

Offline williamlayton

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #199 on: May 21, 2011, 05:55:40 AM »
Are you suggesting we could have made peace with the Axis?
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Offline Gary G

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #200 on: May 21, 2011, 11:05:45 AM »
I was speaking of wars in general. Here is the economic principle pertaining to destruction:
http://freedomkeys.com/window.htm

But since you ask: [Are you suggesting we could have made peace with the Axis?]
We should have stayed out of it. The Germans were not materially equipped to launch a war on US territory The American people did not want war. The economy was getting worse and Roosevelt was feeling the heat. His cousin Churchill needed him in the war. Roosevelt was an admirer of Stalin. It was Roosevelt's war. Congress did an investigation of this and the conspiracy was exposed, but as usual nothing came of it. Somewhere on here I have posted a link to the congressional investigation. You might want to read A Century of War, John V. Denson.
The sole purpose of government is to protect your liberty. The Constitution is not to restrict the people, but to restrict government.  Ron Paul

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

“Everyone wants to live at the expense of the State. They forget that the State lives at the expense of everyone.” — Frederic Bastiat

Offline williamlayton

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #201 on: May 21, 2011, 01:33:10 PM »
It would have benifited Hitler if we had not. Russia would have been lost and China.
By 1950 germany would have atomic weapons and the deliver system--of course GB would be gone.
America first is the plague behind the thrashing of Roosevelt and unlike what the book states---there was never any connection found to warrant what America First said. The same with the attack on Pearl harbor.
I think what you are proposing should have happened would have doomed us.
What do you do with Germany declaring war on us?
My mother used to rant about the America First plan--saying it almost destroyed us.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline williamlayton

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #202 on: May 21, 2011, 01:47:09 PM »
I would like to discuss a cetury of war with you.
I don't think we can get by with it here though,
What other space on this spot do you suggest.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #203 on: May 26, 2011, 10:22:15 AM »
Very interesting that it is the NON warrior who proclaims War is the answer to all problems. Is so quick to provide numbers, which to those bleeding and dying, are far less easy to digest. Unless you are not doing any of the bleeding and dying, then it becomes a romantic match of numbers that mean little or nothing save to those ordered to bleed and die!

Ask a dogface, indeed. One would do well to do just that or better yet just shut up talking about that which you no NOTHING!
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #204 on: May 26, 2011, 10:42:00 AM »
I was speaking of wars in general. Here is the economic principle pertaining to destruction:
http://freedomkeys.com/window.htm

But since you ask: [Are you suggesting we could have made peace with the Axis?]
We should have stayed out of it. The Germans were not materially equipped to launch a war on US territory The American people did not want war. The economy was getting worse and Roosevelt was feeling the heat. His cousin Churchill needed him in the war. Roosevelt was an admirer of Stalin. It was Roosevelt's war. Congress did an investigation of this and the conspiracy was exposed, but as usual nothing came of it. Somewhere on here I have posted a link to the congressional investigation. You might want to read A Century of War, John V. Denson.

surely you jest ? Germany may not have but Japan did invade U S holdings if I remember correctly .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline BUGEYE

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #205 on: May 26, 2011, 10:48:29 AM »
didn't one of their baloon bombs land in Kalifornia?
Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     Patrick Henry

Give me liberty, or give me death
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #206 on: May 26, 2011, 10:55:39 AM »
maybe so , I was thinking islands around the rim.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Gary G

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #207 on: May 26, 2011, 11:07:10 AM »
Quote
Germany may not have but Japan did invade U S holdings if I remember correctly
Japan was at war with Russia over parts of Asia. Roosevelt cut off their gasoline supply with a naval blockade which would leave them stranded and all while we were supposedly neutral. Japan sought to disable the US fleet for this reason. Roosevelt was made aware of the Japanese carriers moving toward the pacific fleet yet he made no attempt to take evasive action. It was his plan to get us into the war. Congress would never have gone for it without first being attacked. Roosevelt wanted war with Germany to aid England. It was to come through Japan.

Like I said, there is a congressional record of the investigation that is available if you wish to google it. It is in the minority report.
The sole purpose of government is to protect your liberty. The Constitution is not to restrict the people, but to restrict government.  Ron Paul

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

“Everyone wants to live at the expense of the State. They forget that the State lives at the expense of everyone.” — Frederic Bastiat

Offline williamlayton

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #208 on: May 26, 2011, 12:35:55 PM »
I know a itty bitty bit about war.

There was knowledge that Japan would strike---show me the evidence that they knew it was Pearl.
Don't use Austrialia as proof. If they had know the hour and date--america would be the last to be informed. Lots of conjecture but even those that bank on the conjecture admit there is no proof.
The evidence would be that if ANYBODY knew it would be Pearl they would have been prepared--we didn't have need of being devistated to ask for a declaration of war---just the fact of the attack would have been enough.
Japan was never at war with Russia until the last few weeks of the war.
Goodness, you are getting testy--someone hit a nerve?
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Gary G

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Re: what do you mean northen agggression
« Reply #209 on: May 26, 2011, 01:42:44 PM »
William, I am not a historian and really am inadequate to convey anything other that a general view. Here is a good link if you wish to research it further. Most of the references are retrievable. The only one that I checked was the congressional record. I have this book, but at the moment it is loaned out to a friend. But, at any rate, your buddy Roosevelt, just like Lincoln, was a sorry lowlife scoundrel. LOL, now I am testy!

http://books.google.com/books?id=hJGpAT7IWhwC&pg=PA453&lpg=PA453&dq=franklin+d.+roosevelt+and+the+first++denson&source=bl&ots=KC_jKV0ckv&sig=tMUlQxe9gt5Mf-us28QZM3r6vzg&hl=en&ei=GtXeTe-RB-Xl0QGy3-zBCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=franklin%20d.%20roosevelt%20and%20the%20first%20%20denson&f=false
The sole purpose of government is to protect your liberty. The Constitution is not to restrict the people, but to restrict government.  Ron Paul

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

“Everyone wants to live at the expense of the State. They forget that the State lives at the expense of everyone.” — Frederic Bastiat