Democratic senators bail ship

[bigMikeA]

nope.  quite proud of my reading comprehension.     your fair question is so, so , so,....
misguided and ...??  unreal?.     There is no money for these people to negotiate for!

I'm not talking about Wisconsin. I'm talking about salaries for teachers in general .-.What do you think would be a fair salary for them??If you think a starting for teachers is 20 grand than say so, if you think it should be 40 grand than say so - I'm asking for opinions- WHAT IS SO SO SO SO SO MISGUIDED ABOUT THAT. If asking for your opinion is unreal- than maybe you need to not be so focused on something ;that it prevents you from seeing what is really being asked.

OK, lessee here...  first of all, your question is silly.  It seems to imply that you think all teachers everywhere should start out making the same "fair" salary.  If so, you are so totally out of touch with economics and reality.  There is a whole myriad of influences that dictate salaries, starting or otherwise, of ALL occupations; regional, urban vs rural, supply vs demand, elementary, vs secondary vs college, desirability of location, etc, etc.  And I have told my kids ever since they were old enough to listen, "fair" only comes once a year, down at the fairgrounds for a few days and then it is gone until next year.  Forget "fair".

But if I seriously tried to answer your silly question, my answer would be "It depends".  what a cop out huh?    Only way to answer such a silly question tho.

jimster said "What ever the tax payers in the area can afford.  Period."  I like that answer.  makes all the sense in the world to me.

gypsyman said "Just starting out, a teacher should make $25,000 a year, NO benifits."  yep, I like that answer too; seems reasonable to me.

A teacher's salary should be whatever he / she is able to negotiate with the school district or college / university he is seeking a position, subject totally to what that district can afford to pay and to the credentials and merit the teacher brings along.  After hire, performance needs to play a continous role.

So, that is my answer to your silly question.  And just so you know, you are asking the guy who, with his wife, made 14 years of sacrifices to afford to send their kids to private Christian school while at the same time paying taxes to support the local liberal left wing indoctrination centers staffed by unionized babysitters, preoccupied with their wage and benefir package; after all, they went to college.   I will add;  the excellent teachers at the local private Christian school make no where near the salary and benefit package of their govt taxpayer financed counterparts.  Fair?  No, that only comes once a year down at the fairgrounds.    Why do they do it?  I dunno;  maybe for the satisfaction, maybe for the passion, maybe because they know they are playing a vital role in actually educating children who's parents and families support, philosophically and financially, their presence there resulting in students who typically excel. 

My two boys, products of the local private Christian school, staffed by non unionized, underpaid (I guess) teachers and staff who apparently are not smart enough to realize the unfairness of it all  , have both graduated from prestigious private universities.  The only way we could afford this is due to the number of academic merit scholarships they both received.  I COULD NOT BE PROUDER OF THEM!

And please do not accuse me of being somehow privliged or wealthy to be able to send my kids there.  My salary all those years was about what you seem to think public .gov teachers should start out at.  Keyword: sacrifices.

I would like some serious answers to the following questions. Let me preface them by adding; Teachers get a 4 year college degree. They spend $40,000 plus for their education and earn nothing while attending college. So let's say they could be making $25,000 a year if they were working for those 4 years while they were in college. That totals up to a cost of about $140,000.
After that investment-1. How much do you think a starting teacher should make a year earn a year?   2. What about a teacher with 20 years experience? 3. What about a teacher with a Masters degree?

My serious answer to that is ...  what the hell difference does that make??  Why do you think teachers should be any different than anybody else in that regard?  LOTs of professions require the same thing.  It is a matter of personal choice.  And if it is a purely fiscal consideration, then anybody who chooses teaching is not smart enough to trust with anybody's kids.   Not many people ever got rich teaching.  although lots of them seem to be trying their damndest lately.

Are you sick of high paid teachers? Teachers’ hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or 10 months a year! It’s time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do - baby sit! We can get that for less than minimum wage.

That’s right. Let’s give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to 3:00 PM

with 45 min. off for lunch and plan — that equals 6 1/2 hours).

 

Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children.

Now how many do they teach in day…maybe 30? So that’s $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day. However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations.

 

LET’S SEE…. That’s $585 X 180= $105,300 peryear. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).

 

What about those special education teachers and the ones with Master’s degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children

X 180 days = $280,800 per year.

 

Wait a minute — there’s something wrong here! There sure is!

 

The average teacher’s salary (nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days = $277.77/per day/30 students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student–a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!)

 

WHAT A DEAL!!!!

no, actually WHAT A CROCK!!!

[huntducks]

So TM7 what union do you belong too?

I read through the first 3 pages 

Here is the problem it's simple the producers (tax payers) are out of work I'm talking construction, factory, ditch digger what ever this is private sector, working is public sector they are the tax takers they produce little or nothing in the way of a product which generates tax's this has been like this for 2 years now the stimulus money (remember that 787 billion) was supposed to create shovel ready jobs all it did was 1. go to the states who paid there none producing state workers a pay check sure they paid tax's but it was tax money in the first place and 2. the so called jobs it created were large highway job's by large union co. who then funneled back $$$ into the democRATS pockets union dues so little was ever produced all that happened was oboma paid off the unions that got him elected with tax $$$ and the democRAT party got richer.

Collective bargaining is not a constitutional right LOL.

I for one have no ax to grind with teachers they work there a$$ off just because there trying to teach a bunch of brain dead morons is not there faults.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

[XD40SC]

BMA - why do teachers get paid with your tax money and get paid so well. BECAUSE THE FAIR ONLY COMES ONCE A YEAR , DOWN AT THE FAIR GROUNDS.FORGET ABOUT FAIR. we finally agree on something. lol

[ironglow]

Dukkillr;
   ...In his post #145 gave us a very thoughtful and reasoned explanation which is difficult to expand upon.  he called it very much as many of us see it !

XD40;
  ...In his post #153 started to attack Dukkillr as a lawyer.  I believe most of us see this as an attempt at "deflection" by trying to "kill the messenger".  This thread is not about lawyers, they get ripped well in other threads.

   

     Just about the time I see Guzzijohn coming around as reasonable and contemplative, he comes up with this statement:

   "I guess many see building bombers and tanks as more important than educating our kids. That may last until there is none left with the education to design and build those things".
     John..such is not the case of "either/or" ... we must have both !   Without keeping (by military might) the freedom to teach, preach & speak etc...we can forget the fine points of education..including pay, tenure and bennies..

   XD40 asks;
    What is "fair" for as starting teacher's wage..."fair" being a much abused and maligned word.  Basically what would be equitable in compensation for a starting teacher would be.. "In an open labor market, the public should pay no more than what they can hire competency for, without interference by outside pressures, such as organized pressure groups  (unions).
  OK; ...so it is a "public service" job and must work under a different calculation...  The military is a public service job also and giving the learning process, the studies involved, hours of classroom etc, I am being generous to assume a starting teacher to be equivalent to an E-5 military.  After all, when experience and 'boots on the ground' practical knowledge are considered, in comparison to the NCO's years, the average kid as a college grad (BS) is but a "babe in the woods".
  Nevertheless...let's give the new teacher the benefit of a doubt !  Here is the basic for an USMC E-5 over 4 years.

                    Basic monthly pay ..... $1877
     monthly clothing allowance .....  $ 30
                            subsistance ......   $ 325
                                                      ________
                                                        $2169

                                   That would appear to be a "fair" starting point.  It must be fair, since we have not heard from any of the heroic unions that military pay must be raised.  Now, some students have paid their own college costs, others get grants, quotas, set-asides or sugar-daddy pays their way...I figure that cost is quite well offset by the military through the extra hazards combat troops face.
  Of course, that wage is on a 12 month year, thus the sergeant gets paid $ 26,028 per year total.  The sergeant however, is allowed 30 days paid leave.  Thus the teacher, including 30 days paid leave allowance (10 months work), should get paid annually,  $ 21,690.  Sounds about fair and right to me, after all I gave the starting teacher 4 pay grades jump over the starting Marine.

  The actual dollar figures are what I came up with...perhaps TeamNelson could correct my figures if necessary....

   BTW;  To you teachers; if you think my figures are  "not fair"..I would ask you.." Just how much more pay would you require if you had to drive to work daily past IEDs ?  How much more pay would you require to kick in doors and shoot it out with terrorists ?  ..And I will ask for my grandson, since he was in this situation..How much pay would you request to face an enemy sniper, one-on-one ?

    On second thought; ..Perhaps the military earns more pay than teachers ! 
       

[gypsyman]

One thing I forgot in my post, is location. I was using figure's that could work around here in Ohio. Those figures would be high in some parts of the country, and low in others. gypsyman

[SHOOTALL]

If teachers were paid what their worth was to the rest of us what would first grade teachers make ? what would 12 grade teachers make ? They face very different work loads .

[dukkillr]

If teachers were paid what their worth was to the rest of us what would first grade teachers make ? what would 12 grade teachers make ? They face very different work loads .

They should.  12th grade science requires more skills than say, first grade pe.  Supply and demand.  One could be filled by 80% of people walking down the strett.  The.other requires knowledge fewer have.

[SHOOTALL]

TM7 so they would need to be good mothers ! I agree with dukkiller . So how does the union see it ? don't all members want the top pay ?

[XD40SC]

If teachers were paid what their worth was to the rest of us what would first grade teachers make ? what would 12 grade teachers make ? They face very different work loads .

They should.  12th grade science requires more skills than say, first grade pe.  Supply and demand.  One could be filled by 80% of people walking down the strett.  The.other requires knowledge fewer have.

Gee I taught AP Biology and AP Environmental Science for years. I was really underpaid.

[dukkillr]

If teachers were paid what their worth was to the rest of us what would first grade teachers make ? what would 12 grade teachers make ? They face very different work loads .

They should.  12th grade science requires more skills than say, first grade pe.  Supply and demand.  One could be filled by 80% of people walking down the strett.  The.other requires knowledge fewer have.

Gee I taught AP Biology and AP Environmental Science for years. I was really underpaid.

Perhaps you were?  Maybe your fair market value is diminished by hitching onto less talented people?  I will say that, at least in my personal experience, Biology is easier to come by than Chemistry or Physics.

[XD40SC]

Maybe your fair market value is diminished by hitching onto less talented people? WOW

[dukkillr]

Maybe your fair market value is diminished by hitching onto less talented people? WOW

What is surprising to you about this? 

Lets say I'm a plumber.  A very good plumber trained in complicated industrial plumbing.  Few plumbers can do what I do.  But I get tired of doing all the work myself so I form a partnership with 3 other drunk, lazy, semi-retarded plumbers whose skills are basically to use a plunger.  Now when the four of us go out and market ourselves to companies to handle their complicated industrial work I have diminished my own personal market value.  As partners (in my hypothetical) we will all make the same amount of money.   That despite that the skills of the other three are not equal to mine and their corresponding ability to generate revenue is correspondingly diminished.  We will not make 4x the money so rather than receiving X dollars (4X/4 partners) I will get some amount less than X.  I have diminished my value "by hitching onto less talented people."  I honestly don't see this as complicated or controversial.  That you do makes me scratch my head.

[ironglow]

***Cheesehead....gee,,,that prank call really pulled back the curtain for a glimpse of reality and Wizard Walker.. , 

Huntducks....I don't belong to any union, I have worked with them alittle. I'm a private businessman most of my working life, sold my business, and now retired for the most part. I've paid plenty of taxes including AMT over the years. I don't begrudge human beings getting a fair wage and working conditions.  Unions aren't perfect...but neither was slavery.  You've been listening to Rushbo and his silly conspiracy theories too much.

IG ...USMC E-5 doesn't require a BS degree nor have a requirement to earn a MA or MS within 10 years (est...$150k investment). It is a fully 'socialized' government position...not really a public service job as you say. There are certain benefits,,,commissary, full socialized HC, travel,  disability program, life insurance,  education program, clothing, sometimes housing, some retirement, almost guarranteed promotion or pay raises in grade, etc., etc....really doesn't have much to do with the real world of work.  I've had good and bad experiences hiring lifers in the past...seems some expected lot of down time when it was time to go-go-go, or personal problems just getting along with civilians. Takes alittle time to re-enter the real world have 22 years in the 'service'.

Teachers were suppose to be members of the community...not just hired help or protection employees. They just don't take their wages/retirements and hide these funds away...THEY SPEND IN THE COMMUNITIES THEY LIVE.  Race-to-the-bottom GOP Central should think about that a little.

There is tremendous consolidated wealth in Wisconsin..tremendous.


..TM7
.

   Contrary to what you apparently believe, many E5 Sgts do have a BS degree ! You seem to be laboring under the old, obsolete idea that enlisted men & women are not educated.  That is an old, mistaken fable..
   In many fields practical life experience often trumps highly educated and inexperienced.  Most of our troops are gaining educationally every week, today being professionals.  If you had problems in the past with a 22 year veteran, he may have been "old school' or perhaps on the job he had to deal with men who weren't really men...many of us have problems with that type....nothing unusual there..  
  You seem to use the word "lifer" in a disparaging way, it is not unusual for a person to spend 20-25 years in a given profession, be he a mechanic, civil engineer, X-ray technician or plumber...so why the "lifer" label ?  Really, you should mature with the times....

   So you say "collective bargaining" is the law and a "right"...so what does that matter?  Our messiah/president just announced that he doesn't like the "Defense of Marriage" act..so his "justice:   department won't enforce that law. Apparently Pres Obama figures the law of the land to be employed "cafeteria style"..a little of this..a little of that and
 none of the other, thank you !

   

[ironglow]

  John Stossel explains why our schools are failing in regard to school systems in other nations.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAMQr5lekj0

   How many people know that NY City maintains "rubber rooms" where teachers who are completely incompetent that they are not even allowed in the substandard class rooms of the "Big Apple"...go to spend the day. ?   They don't do a thing but read books or watch DVDs...and then go home , wiith wage bases of $42,00 to $60,000.

  If the unions were just a bit hones and had one ounce of a conscience...THE UNION would see to it that these losers would find another day job !   Just do a web search for >  NY City teachers, rubber rooms  <

[billy_56081]

For once I have to agree with dukk. You union members have to be the poor non performing part of the work force. Why would someone who has talent and drive be an equal asset to their employer as a lazy slacker? Unions and seniority give no incentive for an employee to do any more that the bare minimum required to keep ones job. I work in various different industries in my present job and see that the union workers will do no more than their mandated minimum. In fact the union leadership will come down on those members who go beyond the minimal effort. Unions are for the lazy under achiever not for the hard working folks who want to get ahead on merit. 

[scootrd]

I'm sure a lot of them poor non performing lazy slacker type coal miners thank God for the UMWA !!!!

I always enjoy reading threads where everyone paints Issues or labels all with such broad brush strokes.

Ridiculous

[XD40SC]

semi-retarded plumbers . DOUBLE WOW

[billy_56081]

As I said the slackers get the same raises and promotions as the hard workers, please explain to me how this promotes hard work?

Only someone with no self esteem and pride in their work would want to put themselves in a class with the lazy slackers.

[XD40SC]

I had an uncle who worked as a sheet metal worker. He was a very hard worker. His boss was a very fair man and his shop was non union. It didn't have to be. The boss was a good guy. One day on a job, my uncle had to get into an area that was blocked with some boxes. My uncle moved the boxes and continued to work. The union got on his back saying his moving the boxes took work away from a laborer. Said they would walk off the job if he did it again- THE BAD PART OF UNIONS.

Many of my relatives includeding my dad for a while worked in the coal mines before unions. They had horror stories of how the miners were mistreated and taken advantage of. You say that was a long time ago and things have changed. Well- Just last year my friend worked for an electrical company for over 20 years. He was diagnosed with cancer and after his primary treatment was let go by the company because his initial treatment and future treatment would have raise the companies insurance so high that they let him go. Today my wife came home from work and told me another friend of ours was let go. He had been there for many years and was at the top of the pay scale. He was let go, the only one. His services were such that he is requested by the clients to do their work. He was let go because he made the highest wages . They both were nonunion. They now both wish they were under a unions protection-  THE GOOD SIDE OF UNIONS.

[jimster]

Real touching story...

But what does it have to do with Unions funneling money to a political party for elections, so that the people elected can funnel my tax money to the unions...where I don't work?

I am trying real hard...but can't connect the dots here.  I simply don't want to pay for other people's pensions and donate my money to their causes and political parties...if you don't mind.  Remove the corruption using my tax dollars and then I will try to connect some dots to the sad stories around the country.   

[Lost Farmboy]

Where were the unions when H. W. Bush and Clinton were bragging on stage to Ross Perot that they would sell us out to Mexico.  They were backing their boy Clinton all the way.

[ironglow]

  Always enjoy a bit of "comedy relief"    ...Comparing coal miners to those rioting school teachers in Wisconsin... :
  Do incompetent coal miners get a "rubber room" to play in ?  I don't think coal miners would accept the  the indignity of being placed in a rubber room.


  BTW:  What do the coal miners think of Obama's war on coal production ?

[scootrd]

  Always enjoy a bit of "comedy relief"    ...Comparing coal miners to those rioting school teachers in Wisconsin... :
  Do incompetent coal miners get a "rubber room" to play in ?  I don't think coal miners would accept the  the indignity of being placed in a rubber room.


  BTW:  What do the coal miners think of Obama's war on coal production ?

And that IG was my whole point , If it wasn't for an organized labor movement in the coal industry (and other industries) the miners (and other Laborers) would have less than a livable wage , they would have more dangerous working conditions , less health Benefits, a lot more dead miners, etc.. So to broad brush stroke ie: Unions are bad , they are evil etc.. is ridiculous... This country was built on the backs of laborers, and laborers organizing and collectively bargaining was necessary to have a voice. IE: UMWA etc..  You don't have to agree with unions but you cant take away from one Union and not all unions . you cant allow for one and not all. As a Governor your Job is to work with organized labor , not try to dismiss it so you don't have too. It's called democracy , and a Governor needs to be able to sit down at a table with organized labor and negotiate. It's called Governing !!! What Walker wants is to dismiss a peoples right to organize and Voice and has nothing to do with Budget balancing.  (don't pee on my shoe and tell me it's raining) Out of the 10 largest contributors to campaigns (or whatever the number was) 3 were Labor unions who normally contribute most heavily to Dems. 7 were Big corps like the Koch Brothers etc..who normally contribute to Republicans. Wouldn't it be great if they could bust unions so less contributions to Democratic party . (who is zooming who here)

WASHINGTON — Among the thousands of demonstrators who jammed the Wisconsin State Capitol grounds this weekend was a well-financed advocate from Washington who was there to voice praise for cutting state spending by slashing union benefits and bargaining rights.

The visitor, Tim Phillips, the president of Americans for Prosperity, told a large group of counter-protesters who had gathered Saturday at one edge of what otherwise was a mostly union crowd that the cuts were not only necessary, but they also represented the start of a much-needed nationwide move to slash public-sector union benefits.

“We are going to bring fiscal sanity back to this great nation,” he said.

What Mr. Phillips did not mention was that his Virginia-based nonprofit group, whose budget surged to $40 million in 2010 from $7 million three years ago, was created and financed in part by the secretive billionaire brothers Charles G. and David H. Koch. David H. Koch and Charles G. Koch have long used their wallets to promote fiscal conservatism and combat regulation.

State records also show that Koch Industries, their energy and consumer products conglomerate based in Wichita, Kan., was one of the biggest contributors to the election campaign of Gov. Scott Walker of Wisconsin, a Republican who has championed the proposed cuts.   (So it's ok for big industry to influence but not labor, Hmmm ........  I think I get it now)

_______________________________________________

What's really going on here isn't budgets at all ,

But It does have everything to do with the Supreme Court federal campaign finance laws decision where the Supreme Court ruled 5-4 that free-speech rights permit groups like corporations and labor unions to directly spend on political campaigns. 

So with a Governor who is in the back pocket of Big Corps , they are trying to turn the clock back 100 years and get their way with Labor again. Bust the unions , bust the ability of those top 3 labor unions to contribute , And the Wisconsin public employees just happen to be the pawns in the larger political fight.

 The unions have already given him what he wanted fiscally to balance his budget .  What Walker wants now is over-reaching and trying to take away their voice.

As I said thank God for the UMWA , USW , etc.. They helped shape America , gave us a middle class , and helped push for livable wages.

[scootrd]

I have 2 teachers in my family  - 

Needless to say very heated arguments around out Thanksgiving table.

Do I agree with their salaries and benefits  -  absolutely not
Do I agree they need to pick up more of their own Tab  -  Absolutely
Do I agree we should take away their right to organize, unionize, negotiate, and collectively bargain as a single representative Body  -  Absolutely not.
Is it a messy Process  - Absolutely
Is it American  -  You bet your rear end it is.

[carbineman]

  Always enjoy a bit of "comedy relief"    ...Comparing coal miners to those rioting school teachers in Wisconsin... :
  Do incompetent coal miners get a "rubber room" to play in ?  I don't think coal miners would accept the  the indignity of being placed in a rubber room.


  BTW:  What do the coal miners think of Obama's war on coal production ?

And that IG was my whole point , If it wasn't for an organized labor movement in the coal industry (and other industries) the miners (and other Laborers) would have less than a livable wage , they would have more dangerous working conditions , less health Benefits, a lot more dead miners, etc.. So to broad brush stroke ie: Unions are bad , they are evil etc.. is ridiculous... This country was built on the backs of laborers, and laborers organizing and collectively bargaining was necessary to have a voice. IE: UMWA etc..  You don't have to agree with unions but you cant take away from one Union and not all unions Why Not?. you cant allow for one and not all. Why Not?As a Governor your Job is to work with organized labor Nowhere do I see this as the governors duty, not try to dismiss it so you don't have too. It's called democracy , and a Governor needs to be able to sit down at a table with organized labor and negotiate. Not soIt's called Governing !!! What Walker wants is to dismiss a peoples rightAgain this is a privilege not a right to organize and Voice and has nothing to do with Budget balancing.  (don't pee on my shoe and tell me it's raining)completely childish and unecessary Out of the 10 largest contributors to campaigns (or whatever the number was) 3 were Labor unions who normally contribute most heavily to Dems. 7 were Big corps like the Koch Brothers etc..who normally contribute to Republicans. Wouldn't it be great if they could bust unions so less contributions to Democratic party .After what I witnessed in Madison yes it would be great. No sympathy from this poster (who is zooming who here)

WASHINGTON — Among the thousands of demonstrators who jammed the Wisconsin State Capitol grounds this weekend was a well-financed advocate from Washington who was there to voice praise for cutting state spending by slashing union benefits and bargaining rights.

The visitor, Tim Phillips, the president of Americans for Prosperity, told a large group of counter-protesters who had gathered Saturday at one edge of what otherwise was a mostly union crowd that the cuts were not only necessary, but they also represented the start of a much-needed nationwide move to slash public-sector union benefits.

“We are going to bring fiscal sanity back to this great nation,” he said.

What Mr. Phillips did not mention was that his Virginia-based nonprofit group, whose budget surged to $40 million in 2010 from $7 million three years ago, was created and financed in part by the secretive billionaire brothers Charles G. and David H. Koch. David H. Koch and Charles G. Koch have long used their wallets to promote fiscal conservatismA great thing to promote and combat regulation.

State records also show that Koch Industries, their energy and consumer products conglomerate based in Wichita, Kan., was one of the biggest contributors to the election campaign of Gov. Scott Walker of Wisconsin, a Republican who has championed the proposed cuts.   (So it's ok for big industry to influence but not labor, Hmmm ........  I think I get it now)
Like I said you knock yourself out promoting unions and you get everything you can, just don't expect me to pay for it and sit idly by and watch it continue
_______________________________________________

What's really going on here isn't budgets at all ,

But It does have everything to do with the Supreme Court federal campaign finance laws decision where the Supreme Court ruled 5-4 that free-speech rights permit groups like corporations and labor unions to directly spend on political campaigns. 

So with a Governor who is in the back pocket of Big Corps , unlike the last governor who had his hand in everyone elses pocket they are trying to turn the clock back 100 years and get their way with Labor again. Bust the unions , bust the ability of those top 3 labor unions to contribute , And the Wisconsin public employees just happen to be the pawns in the larger political fight. It sucks to be them but like the rest of us they are taking their turn

 The unions have already given him what he wanted fiscally to balance his budget .  What Walker wants now is over-reaching only in your mind, and therein lies the problem, the rest of us don't think so, but what you posted here makes for a good TV commericial but little else.and trying to take away their voice.

As I said thank God for the UMWA , USW , etc.. They helped shape America , gave us a middle class , and helped push for livable wages.

[ironglow]

Scootrd says;
  " As a Governor your Job is to work with organized labor , not try to dismiss it so you don't have too. It's called democracy , and a Governor needs to be able to sit down at a table with organized labor and negotiate. It's called Governing "

 Ironglow answers;
        Sorry Scoot;
     It is NOT the governors JOB to WORK WITH organized labor !  It is the governor's job to look out for the interests of ALL the citizens of his/her state !  It amkes no difference whether those grouyps are oprganized labor, dis-organized labor, United plumbers or left-handed monkey jumpers...
   The governor's duty is to look after the interests of ALL the citizens of that state, and if one group is trying to rip off ALL the taxpayers of that state, it is the governor's job to correct the situation....THAT"S CALLED GOVERNING !
   The teacher's unions have been abusing taxpayers far too long, and have been repeatedly warned; but as with most abusers, they just "didn't get it"...now, perhaps they will !

      As Col John Parker said on that April morning at Concord Bridge. "but if they mean to have war, let it begin here" !

   " ON WISCONSIN "...

[carbineman]

IG..the union conceded expenses. Walker continues an attack and their right to exist...hidden in his bill are very sneakyvery sneaky= good leftist rhetoric privatization and selling of assets and rights, etc.I didn't see that in the bill. How violating the Wagner Act and Labor Law and executive order is protecting the interest of Wisconsin at large is unfathomable.....and extremistanother keyword for leftists to use as well, you are certainly running all the plays in the leftist playbook to say the least. Compromise, negogiation.Yes I will, only though if you agree with me.working with the components of the Stae most certainly is his Duty...anything less is dictatorshipanother colorful name in the lefts playbook. You didn't call him Hitler yet.. People of Wiscosnin need to cut thru this Union scapegoating rouse and find out this guy's agendi and pronto...! There is tremendous wealth in Wisconsin Can't leave that out of one of your postsand they have a big hidden handYes very secretive but you have seen through it and want to save us all from eternal damnation in this Walker operation.

..TM7

[Cabin4]

TM,
There is nothing sneaky about what Walker is doing. Nothing. He campaigned on this strategy, he was completely open and told the voters he wanted to put an end to collective bargaining for the public sector government unions as well as force them to pay a greater share towards benefits. It’s right there for the record. It’s even being tracked as one of his 60 top promises by the independant Politicofact. He won the election and so did the republicans in the legislature. That’s who was voted in. There is nothing unconstitutional about it at the state or federal level. This has nothing to do with private sector Unions. So Walker and the WI state legislature are doing what they are suppose to do. Look out for the tax payers, not preserve the overpriced Unions that hold the state government and tax payers hostage. I hope Walker destroys the public sector Unions. They have held the People hostage long enough.

[ironglow]

  The governor was elected to represent THE PEOPLE of WISCONSIN.  If he were to take a position such as Obama has, which is to back the public sector unions, he would be dead wrong, favoring a special interest group overt the people.    With Gov Walker, whenever the union wants more money or wants to strike against their employer, ...since their employer is the People of Wisconsin, the governor would be ethically required to contest every gain the union seeks, since his first duty is to the PEOPLE ! ...And that includes removing their "collective bargaining" extortion weapon if he can.
   Obviously, the governor is doing the only ethical and moral thing he can do...he is favoring the people over a "special interest" group !  Three cheers for Gov Walker !!!     ON WISCONSIN..then on to Indiana, Ohio, Michigan etc, etc...

[Mohawk]

The minute they walked off the job for personal issues they should have been fired. Companies are moving to right to work states for a reason, and overseas. The gravy train is ending and they are upset. They "greeded" themselves into this position. Amazingly!!!!   Folks continue without collective bargaining. I don't have that but not having it beats the unemployment line. I do my job and earn my pay. Is that so foreign in WI? Thousands of teachers, I would guess, teachers here would take those jobs and accept half the pay. 30K a year should do it.