Democratic senators bail ship

[Cabin4]

Scoot if this is not tax dollars being used where did it come from?

Where it came from is I payed you 10.00 to do a Job (this is your salary) , and you elected to defer a portion of your salary lets say 2 of the 10 dollars towards employee pension and benefits to be managed by a fund professional.

Scootr,
I'm sorry. I'm not buying it. The calculation for what gets deferred is not at the gross pay level. If it is, we should be able to find at least one union memeber who is willing to post a scanned copy of his pay stub on the internet. He can just block out the name.

I worked for a private sector employer for 24 years. We had a pension program. Nothing came out of my income from my pay check. The company contributed to my pension plan an amount based on what I earned in each pay period. It was not poart of my gross or net income. Its in addition to what they make, not subtracted from what they make. If it is, lets see one.

[scootrd]

  "And taxpayers are paying nothing for public employees pensions and benefits"

   Scoot.. Tell me you didn't really say that..  naw! couldn't be...  I doubt they even grow "wacky tabacky" that strong...
   

Yes I can definitely tell  you I didn't say it ...after researching the myth , Forbes Magazine did !!!! , need the Link?

Additionally , another myth to dispell.  -  The first thing Walker did when he can in office was slash corporate taxes in the state under the premise of Job creation of course ... But heres the fallacy.  They said thank you very much and went off to claim their profits in other states and claim their costs in Wisconsin ...Whoohoo , where was the benefit for Wisconsin there. Walker is a Koch puppet. 

[billy_56081]

Scoot I see you are avoiding my question, where does this magic money that pays for the public employees benefits and pensions come from?

[scootrd]

Scoot I see you are avoiding my question, where does this magic money that pays for the public employees benefits and pensions come from?

I am avoiding nothing ...again it comes from their own Salaries. I already answered that. Not sure why you cannot grasp that. It's deferred compensation from their own saleries . !!!!

[billy_56081]

Ok scoot and where do their salaries come from??? We are getting closer.

[bigMikeA]

You all do realize Pension and Benefits are part of Wisconsin Public employees compensation package. They earned them . The tax payer actually pays nothing .

Gov. Scott Walker says he wants state workers covered by collective bargaining agreements to “contribute more” to their pension and health insurance plans. Accepting Gov. Walker’ s assertions as fact, and failing to check, creates the impression that somehow the workers are getting something extra, a gift from taxpayers. They are not. Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin’ s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.

The pension plan is the direct result of deferred compensation- money that employees would have been paid as cash salary but choose, instead, to have placed in the state operated pension fund where the money can be professionally invested (at a lower cost of management) for the future.

Governor Walker has gotten away with this false narrative because journalists have failed to look closely at how employee pension plans work and have simply accepted the Governor’s word for it. Because of this, those who wish the unions ill have been able to seize on that narrative to score points by running ads and spreading the word that state employees pay next to nothing for their pensions and that it is all a big taxpayer give-away.

If the Wisconsin governor and state legislature were to be honest, they would correctly frame this issue. They are not, in fact, asking state employees to make a larger contribution to their pension and benefits programs as that would not be possible- the employees are already paying 100% of the contributions.

What they are actually asking is that the employees take a pay cut.

That may or may not be an appropriate request depending on your point of view – but the argument that the taxpayers are providing state workers with some gift is a false argument.

Maybe state workers need to take pay cuts But let’s, at the least be honest for what it is rather than pretending they’ve been getting away with some sweet deal that now must be brought to an end.

I do not understand why the media and others continue to perpetuate this misleading myth.

______________________________________

Here is the link to the actual collective Bargaining Agreements.

http://oser.state.wi.us/subcategory.asp?linksubcatid=1246&linkcatid=389&linkid=2

 

Classic!!  I used to think this type of stuff was just smoke and mirrors used by more clever factions to try to persuade less clever ones that their way of thinking made the most sense.

I now have to believe that most of them ACTUALLY BELIEVE this stuff.

My goodness!!   

[billy_56081]

No answer? Magic money? Obama's stash?

[Cabin4]

Scoot I see you are avoiding my question, where does this magic money that pays for the public employees benefits and pensions come from?

I am avoiding nothing ...again it comes from their own Salaries. I already answered that. Not sure why you cannot grasp that. It's deferred compensation from their own saleries . !!!!

Deffered compensation is just a fancy term for pay above and beyond what they earned as part of their salary. It means, its additional money that come from the tax payers coffers. Its NOT, money than is subtracted from thier gross pay.

[Brewster]

The smoke and mirrors comes from educated and wealthy teabaggers looking to score $$ and manipulating the peckerwoods to do it for them.

[bigMikeA]

The smoke and mirrors comes from educated and wealthy teabaggers looking to score $$ and manipulating the peckerwoods to do it for them.

hmmmmm.......

before it was the uneducated and untrained that couldn't seem to grasp the problem..  NOW  it is the EDUCATED and wealthy teabaggers who are manipulating the peckerwoods....  My goodness I am so confused!  No wonder the nation is so full of hate and discontent.  An educated fellow just plain don't know who to believe.   

[Cabin4]

When the anti-teabaggers (the liberals, socialists, commies, etc) try and attack the tax payers and steal more of their money. They are just blood suckers that make a living by raping society of its means to be productive so they can lay down as lazy slobs while everyone else produces. Lieing, cheating and stealing from the tax payers by paying off politicians. What a career.

[scootrd]

I give up.. It wouldn't matter what was said ...we will just agree to disagree agreeably.

The fact is that all of the money going into these plans belongs to the workers because it is part of the compensation of the state workers. The fact is that the state workers negotiate their total compensation, which they then divvy up between cash wages, paid vacations, health insurance and, yes, pensions. Since the Wisconsin government workers collectively bargained for their compensation, all of the compensation they have bargained for is part of their pay and thus only the workers contribute to the pension plan. This is an indisputable fact.

so what Walker is really asking for is a pay cuts . That's fine , but lets at least call it for what it is. and stop perpetuating the myth.

[billy_56081]

Scoot you are giving up without answering where the money for the salaries for these public sector employees comes from? And we were getting so close.   

And another question, who did they negotiate with to get those wages and bene fits?

Don't give up yet we are so close.

[Cabin4]

I give up.. It wouldn't matter what was said ...we will just agree to disagree agreeably.

The fact is that all of the money going into these plans belongs to the workers because it is part of the compensation of the state workers. The fact is that the state workers negotiate their total compensation, which they then divvy up between cash wages, paid vacations, health insurance and, yes, pensions. Since the Wisconsin government workers collectively bargained for their compensation, all of the compensation they have bargained for is part of their pay and thus only the workers contribute to the pension plan. This is an indisputable fact.

so what Walker is really asking for is a pay cuts . That's fine , but lets at least call it for what it is. and stop perpetuating the myth.

Scoot,
No one is taking a penny of what was paid into thier deffered comp pension plan. What is in that plan, is still there. What the change is about is the go-forward deffered comp ratios. And yes, call it a pay cut. Thier employer is BROKE! In the private sector, workers take pay cuts, freezes, ect all the time. Why should state workers be immune from this?

[billy_56081]

Broke Cabin how can they be broke? Isn't the money magic?

[Cabin4]

It is magic. It disapears off your pay check and then it just appears in the state coffers and then the politicians and unions just take it. You'll never see it happen. Magic!

[scootrd]

I give up.. It wouldn't matter what was said ...we will just agree to disagree agreeably.

The fact is that all of the money going into these plans belongs to the workers because it is part of the compensation of the state workers. The fact is that the state workers negotiate their total compensation, which they then divvy up between cash wages, paid vacations, health insurance and, yes, pensions. Since the Wisconsin government workers collectively bargained for their compensation, all of the compensation they have bargained for is part of their pay and thus only the workers contribute to the pension plan. This is an indisputable fact.

so what Walker is really asking for is a pay cuts . That's fine , but lets at least call it for what it is. and stop perpetuating the myth.

Scoot,
No one is taking a penny of what was paid into thier deffered comp pension plan. What is in that plan, is still there. What the change is about is the go-forward deffered comp ratios. And yes, call it a pay cut. Thier employer is BROKE! In the private sector, workers take pay cuts, freezes, ect all the time. Why should state workers be immune from this?

It cracks me up the whole state is broke argument , who helped exacerbate the "Budget" woes? Whats the first thing Walker did when he came into office . He gave additional tax cuts (less revenue for the state ) to corps. Why ? Job creation? please , The corps said thank you very much and they will claim their profits in other states and their costs in Wisconsin. Nothing but a Quid pro Quo for Koch's , Rupert Murdoch and others. Walker is nothing but a puppet , bought and paid for by big business. and once they are done with him they will toss him under the bus.

Side note: latest Wall Street Journal poll now reporting.
68 percent agree public employees to contribute more of their pay for retirement benefits
63 percent agree public employees should pay more for their health-care benefits
58 percent agree freezing public employees' salaries for one year.

But just 33 percent say it's acceptable -- and 62 percent say it's unacceptable -- to eliminate these employees' collective-bargaining rights as way to deal with state budget deficits.

In addition, 77 percent believe that public employees should have the same collective-bargaining rights
(when it comes to health care, pensions, and other benefits) that union employees who work for private
companies have.

[XD40SC]

IF YOU THINK EDUCATION IS EXPENSIVE- TRY PAYING FOR IGNORANCE!

[scootrd]

I wish we could pin this post ... I guarantee.. and it's unfortunate but Republicans are going to pay a heavy price in 2012 for over-reaching and going against the majority will of the people not only within Wisconsin but nationally.  Too bad cause I agreed with some if not most of their budget balancing initiatives.  But they have now incited the ire of the majority of the American people and they will rally agaist them in the next election cycle and repeal all this nonsense anyways.

[bigMikeA]

IF YOU THINK EDUCATION IS EXPENSIVE- TRY PAYING FOR IGNORANCE!

That from one of the highly educated, most personally sacrificed "teachers" of the nations young minds.   

[bigMikeA]

I wish we could pin this post ... I guarantee.. and it's unfortunate but Republicans are going to pay a heavy price in 2012 for over-reaching and going against the majority will of the people not only within Wisconsin but nationally.  Too bad cause I agreed with some if not most of their budget balancing initiatives.  But they have now incited the ire of the majority of the American people and they will rally agaist them in the next election cycle and repeal all this nonsense anyways.

only time will tell.  I'd bet you're mistaken but we'll just have to wait and see.

[Brewster]

Ignorance is what people like you thrive on.  It's been that way forever.  Give the ignorant a convenient target while you stick it to them in the dark.  Does it feel good,
boys?

[billy_56081]

Scoot, I am glad you are not done, so how about you stop side stepping the question. Where do these public sector employees wages come from?

We are so close aren't we.

[bigMikeA]

Ignorance is what people like you thrive on.  It's been that way forever.  Give the ignorant a convenient target while you stick it to them in the dark.  Does it feel good,
boys?

??  who is your post pointed at?  whom are you calling ignorant? 

[Cabin4]

I give up.. It wouldn't matter what was said ...we will just agree to disagree agreeably.

The fact is that all of the money going into these plans belongs to the workers because it is part of the compensation of the state workers. The fact is that the state workers negotiate their total compensation, which they then divvy up between cash wages, paid vacations, health insurance and, yes, pensions. Since the Wisconsin government workers collectively bargained for their compensation, all of the compensation they have bargained for is part of their pay and thus only the workers contribute to the pension plan. This is an indisputable fact.

so what Walker is really asking for is a pay cuts . That's fine , but lets at least call it for what it is. and stop perpetuating the myth.

Scoot,
No one is taking a penny of what was paid into thier deffered comp pension plan. What is in that plan, is still there. What the change is about is the go-forward deffered comp ratios. And yes, call it a pay cut. Thier employer is BROKE! In the private sector, workers take pay cuts, freezes, ect all the time. Why should state workers be immune from this?

It cracks me up the whole state is broke argument , who helped exacerbate the "Budget" woes? Whats the first thing Walker did when he came into office . He gave additional tax cuts (less revenue for the state ) to corps. Why ? Job creation? please , The corps said thank you very much and they will claim their profits in other states and their costs in Wisconsin. Nothing but a Quid pro Quo for Koch's , Rupert Murdoch and others. Walker is nothing but a puppet , bought and paid for by big business. and once they are done with him they will toss him under the bus.

Side note: latest Wall Street Journal poll now reporting.
68 percent agree public employees to contribute more of their pay for retirement benefits
63 percent agree public employees should pay more for their health-care benefits
58 percent agree freezing public employees' salaries for one year.

But just 33 percent say it's acceptable -- and 62 percent say it's unacceptable -- to eliminate these employees' collective-bargaining rights as way to deal with state budget deficits.

In addition, 77 percent believe that public employees should have the same collective-bargaining rights
(when it comes to health care, pensions, and other benefits) that union employees who work for private
companies have.

I don't know Scoot,.... Who is responsable for the budget woes? Walker just came into office not 2 months ago.  Are you going to tell us its his fault? How about the last administration? You keep making a big deal over $117m tax cut but the state has nearly a $3trillion dollar over SPENDING PROBLEM. Tax cuts CANNOT create a budget deficit, ONLY OVER SPENDING CAN. ITS THE TAX PAYERS MONEY, NOT THE GOVERNMENTS. The union supporting politicians and big spenders have been raping the tax payers for years in Wisconsin. Give the guy and the new legislature a break. They got the problen handed to them by the last democrate party. He is trying to fix the mess of business leaving Wisconsin and the burden of all the blood sucker state union mess his on his hands. Your prior administrations and not dealt with the issue. Now its time the state workers PAY UP thier fair share instead of the tax payers for once!

[jcn59]

It's crystal clear that we can hire two million high-school drop outs for about half what we are paying our teachers, child protection workers, etc.  Maybe we could even get cheaper workers if we hired child molesters and felons instead of just plain old high school dropouts.  They could probably teach the world to sing in perfect harmony during recess, too. 

Many of you are SO FAR OFF BASE in your understanding of what teachers get paid and even what deferred compensation is that you probably could NEVER understand what is really happening.  It kind of reminds me of when Clinton lied to the Grand Jury and most people thought the issue was what he did with the Polish girl during work hours.

I voted for Walker so don't think for even one moment that I have a drop of democrat blood in my veins.   I think the democrats are getting what they deserve for electing zero. 

Most of you need to get some first hand information from a reliable source.

[Cabin4]

We know what differed compensation is. I have deferred compensation today from my current employer and had it with a former employer. I know what teachers get paid in the public schools and private. So why don't you educate me on what I have been getting since 1981.....

How about compromise? Is it time for Walker to compromise with the state workers?

[Pass Lake]

My dad worked for the public for 28 years.  He never paid 1 cent into insurance or his retirement to his employer.  His employer took care of all his medical expenses.  He retired at 63.  He died 10 years ago at 78.  My mom is now 87. Because of my dad's work,  she still gets a survivor benefit of $1,200/mo.  She also gets Medicare suppliment without cost to her that pays everything Medicare doesn't pay. Are you saying my parents shouldn't have received these benefits which the public pays for?

[dukkillr]

My dad worked for the public for 28 years.  He never paid 1 cent into insurance or his retirement to his employer.  His employer took care of all his medical expenses.  He retired at 63.  He died 10 years ago at 78.  My mom is now 87. Because of my dad's work,  she still gets a survivor benefit of $1,200/mo.  She also gets Medicare suppliment without cost to her that pays everything Medicare doesn't pay. Are you saying my parents shouldn't have received these benefits which the public pays for?

I won't speak for the others, but I personally have no idea.  My idea isn't based on any single person's experience and I'm aware that the labor market was vastly different 40 years ago.  Perhaps the prevailing wages and benefits for what your father did at that time was exactly what he received. 

My objection is that today that market has become distorted in a way that makes it difficult for governments to pay people what they are actually worth on the open market.  I fundamentally believe everyone should earn exactly what they are worth to their employer.  Those of us who make our way in the open market already do this.  If I do a bad job I'll go broke.  If I develop specialized skills and find great demand my rates go up.  I don't have a "right" to make a dollar.  It's basic capitalism.  It's time for the public service to do the same.

I'm not into the insulting rhetoric.  It's just a matter of the way I see the fundamental fairness of American society.  It seems like I'm not alone in that.

[ironglow]

I wish we could pin this post ... I guarantee.. and it's unfortunate but Republicans are going to pay a heavy price in 2012 for over-reaching and going against the majority will of the people not only within Wisconsin but nationally.  Too bad cause I agreed with some if not most of their budget balancing initiatives.  But they have now incited the ire of the majority of the American people and they will rally agaist them in the next election cycle and repeal all this nonsense anyways.

    Scoot;
  While i am neither Republican, and certainly not a Dem/Lib... it sure seem that you "progressives" are more worried about the Republicans "over reaching" ....than the Republicans are !