Author Topic: Democratic senators bail ship (Read 60337 times)

gypsyman · « **on:** February 17, 2011, 10:38:42 AM »

Seems that 14 Democrat senators in Wisconsin took a bus, and left the capital. Their having major demonstrations about how to balance the budget. And, unfortunatley, alot of it has to come from teachers. So the unions are bussing in protestors. And, some of the teachers have encouraged their students to participate. They've closed most of the schools around Madison.
I really don't have any problem with teachers protesting, as long as it's done legally. But, when the Dem. senators take off like that, wouldn't most of us lose our job if we just up and walked out when we were suppose to be working. I realize this is a staged event, and their even having the local law enforcement out trying to round them up.
First off, the teachers ought to realize, if there isn't enough money to pay them, their going to have to take some cuts. They also want to take away their collective bargaining rights. I think this is a good thing. So many are on the payroll, that don't deserve the pay their getting. Turn out a better student, get more pay. Pass them just to pass them, get a different job.
As far as the senators are concerned, they ought to all be fired, and new election held. Anybody does that at a regular job, and they'd get fired. gypsyman

jimster · « **Reply #1 on:** February 17, 2011, 11:09:52 AM »

Well yes, we would lose our jobs if we jumped ship. But they were elected, so I'm not sure how that works.

The main thing many people don't get is there is no more money for anything. They just don't get it. Mostly, all the people who get gobs of tax money don't get it, including unions. I'm not sure how to tell people like that there is no more money, and they are billions in debt at state levels, trillions in debt at federal levels. They just think in their heads there is money out there for them, they must be obsessed or something, but they have no logic. The money isn't just gone, it was gone years ago, and will be gone for years to come. People leave their homes, the leave the state they live in, they lose everything they have when their money is gone, but for some reason the people who rely on taxes, and governments at every level can't seem to realize...there is no more money and things will shut down at some point no matter how important they think their needs are.

Far as the kids protesting in Wisconsin, they have no idea what they are protesting for the most part, and don't have a clue on how anything works, they are just being used by the people who think there must be money somewhere. Better than sitting in class for sure.

carbineman · « **Reply #2 on:** February 17, 2011, 05:41:31 PM »

My wife and I are planning on attending a Pro Scott Walker Rally in Madison on Saturday scheduled for Noon at the Capitol. Organizer is Vicki McKenna, Milwaukee radio talk show host.

As much as I hate the thought of going to Madison, this is an important first step and turning point on the possibility of reigning in spending and saving Wisconsin citizens from being taxed out of money they don't have We are tapped out.

State Union Workers- Welcome To Reality and My World. GO SCOTT GO

Cabin4 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 17, 2011, 06:40:20 PM »

The State unions and their workers can go straight to hell. They are a bunch a greedy scum bags. The states and the country are broke and these people have the most lucrative compensation packages and they are willing to give up nothing. They are stealing tax payer money. I hope they get screwed.

jimster · « **Reply #4 on:** February 18, 2011, 01:37:22 AM »

Quote

The unions claim they are willing to take a tax increase if Walker would raise taxes on those most able to sustain a tax increase...the wealthy and corps.

Ya, I bet they would...LOL! What a bunch of loons. Imagine that...the Unions being the only ones left working, paying taxes out of their nice paychecks...and holding up America for all of us. LOL!

The Unions have turned into the same thing the far left loonie people are. They are totally illogical. When the money is gone...it's GONE....period.

Quote

The State unions and their workers can go straight to hell.

Plus 1 here....

jimster · « **Reply #5 on:** February 18, 2011, 03:20:50 AM »

Quote

I take it you don't believe in the constitutional right to 'collective bargaining" either...? Walker apparently doesn't

You seem to have the same problem many do....so let me say this again.

There is NO MONEY...period....which means there IS NOTHING TO BARGIN WITH.

For those that can't get this...it's like trading marbles when you were a kid...if you didn't have any marbles, there was nothing to trade...or bargin with.

Is this too hard to get? Sure the unions can bargin if they want...after three seconds you just tell them NO...the money is gone. Nothing to bargin with....it's all gone.

After they are on strike for a year or so they might catch on the money is gone? Let them strike until they starve....the bargining will get much easier.

gypsyman · « **Reply #6 on:** February 18, 2011, 03:59:44 AM »

TM7, better check your facts. I believe that these state/local/teachers and workers are making much more than $30,000. Plus their benifits. A well know fact, in private industry the same job pays 30-40% less, with no benifits. Plus, the money comes from sales, not imposed tax's.
Problem with the protesters in Wi., they are very much like welfare recipients. They've had it so good when the gravy train was roilling in, they've lost touch with what most of the real world has been going thru in the last couple years.
While I agree with the ceo's getting way to much, that's pale in comparison to the thousands of workers that had all of their insurance's paid for years,days off with pay, and retirement to boot. gypsyman

jimster · « **Reply #7 on:** February 18, 2011, 05:35:26 AM »

Quote

You have to be willing to get it from those that have it

Some questions on this. Who decides "who" has it? UNIONS? LOL! So far whoever has been deciding this has been wrong, obviously...look at the mess we are in now with these people looking for more money.

Basically....there is no money but ours, that's the way it always works out. If you want to grab a couple of CEO's and take all their money not many would complain, but there is a bit of a constitutional matter here as well...no? And even if they grab a handfull of CEO's and wipe them out, what do these Unions and tax payer money users after that money is all gone in a few months...? Back to spending what there is none of...as usual.

We get taxes passed down to us in every case. I would suppose we could grab every corporation and every wealthy CEO, put them in the soup line, then there would be even less jobs, and of course this money would not last very long at all. This program of attacking anything and everybody with any money is not working so well so far...why do we keep thinking it will?

Tax payers are all but gone, the ones left are tapped out...there is nothing left to bargin with, and it seems the far left wingers always point at what few businesses are left, anyone with any money is a target. In the end...nothing left at all. Ya...sure, round up all the CEO's in America and just take their stuff....that will bail us out for ten minutes. Then we let the Unions crash after that I guess...OK...I'm good with that...let's do that.

We can talk about what to do after we kill off the rest of the jobs.

All this hoopla....and money does not even equal better education anyways...so why are we even wanting more money for the teachers and Unions? If more money equaled smarter students, our country would be chuck full of geniuses instead of gangs and drop outs.

There is no more money....in the end they will have to realize this, they can do it the easy way, or the hard way. But they will get it in the end, they always do. Detroit gets it...Chicago gets it...they just plain shut down large sections of their cities...Unions bargined all the way up to the bulldozers coming in. Then they left.

carbineman · « **Reply #8 on:** February 18, 2011, 11:58:15 AM »

TM7 wrote, <<I take it you don't believe in the constitutional right to 'collective bargaining" either...? Walker apparently doesn't.>>

For the most part the unions can bargain all they want... with the local school districts. This "one size fits all" approach should be done away with. The state should not be able to bargain with any entity about anything other than government business as laid out in the Constitution. I maybe wrong but collective bargaining is not a constitutional right. Teachers should bargain at the local level, just the same as I do with my employer.

Besides as the Halfrican stated in early 2009, "Elections have consequences, and we won so we get to do things our way." Well now the shoe is on the other foot. I really don't care what WEAC does as they are only looking out for their unions members pocketbook, BUT they have to remember that I'm looking out for mine as well.

TM7 question for you, instead of always looking to extract more money out of the taxpayers, why not just only spend the money the government takes in? Why ?

Me and the little woman have our signs made and reluctantly are headed to Liberalville at 0700 on Saturday to carry on the other side of the "peoples" business.

bigMikeA · « **Reply #9 on:** February 18, 2011, 12:16:05 PM »

Quote from: carbineman on February 18, 2011, 11:58:15 AM

TM7 wrote, <<I take it you don't believe in the constitutional right to 'collective bargaining" either...? Walker apparently doesn't.>>

Me and the little woman have our signs made and reluctantly are headed to Liberalville at 0700 on Saturday to carry on the other side of the "peoples" business.

carbineman - Thank you for going. Good luck and stay safe. I will be with you in spirit.

jimster · « **Reply #10 on:** February 18, 2011, 12:50:25 PM »

TM, I know I sound extreme, I admit that. But it seems to me there is a such thing as running out of "other people's money". And even if I believed there was never and end to running out of other people's money, there sure as hell will be no end to needing "more" of other people's money, because of the way they do their business. You will never get them to make the cuts and sacrifices they need to if they always have access to more and more, there is no reason to stop spending 5 times more than you bring in. This is something you have to force on them, when the money rolls back, they find ways to stop spending. Works the same way in every sucessful home and business in the world. You can target the wealthy through taxes, I have no say over that, it's been done before. Our state targeted business with extra taxes because they had a spending sickeness, all it did was make the math look worse when you added the heavy state tax to the fed tax, a few more regulations (same as taxes in my view)...and they all left. My state is a model for this stuff. Our new governor is trying to cut off the money for our schools as well, and the papers are alive, front page stuff. But the reality is the schools were warned two years ago to get in order because the money was gone back then...they spent more, and got more each year. City schools are a mess with more money poured in every year. Might as well roll back the money and listen to them cry, I heard it all before, eventually they figure out a way to get by.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 18, 2011, 01:15:48 PM »

It's time to get back to money having real value in itself. I bet a Morgan silver dollar would have bought you a nice bottle of whiskey. Nowadays the value of the silver in that Morgan silver dollar would buy you s nice bottle of whiskey.

bigMikeA · « **Reply #12 on:** February 18, 2011, 02:46:08 PM »

carbineman is getting up in the morning at odarkthirty and going to Madison WI to express his support of of gov Scott Walker. Come on folks.... am I going to be the only one who can't possibly be there but wish him and the "little woman" Godspeed and best wishes? I KNOW members in addition to myself support their efforts. PLEASE let them know you do.

Thanks and Godbless....
bigMikeA

Mike38 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 18, 2011, 06:29:13 PM »

carbineman, my wife and I are also going to Madison. We will be with the Tea Party group. It's a 110 mile trip north for us, not too bad.

TM7, better check your facts. Average yearly pay for a Wisconsin teacher is $60K with $40K in benifits. $100K a year is damn good money for this area.

XD40SC · « **Reply #14 on:** February 19, 2011, 01:00:27 AM »

Collective bargaining was implemented because teachers were grossly underpaid. Before collective bargaining, many teachers qualified for food stamps and the WIC program. People working in construction and factory workers made more money than teachers who had spent 4 years going to school and paying for their education. You have to realize that teachers don't work much if at all while attending college. This amounts to 4 years of lost wages Plus having to pay for their education. The debt is a sizable amount. How many of you would be willing to not be paid while learning how to do your jobs. Especially if the learning process took 4 years. Back in the day when teachers were underpaid, NO ONE AND I MEAN NO ONE COMPLINED THAT TEACHERS were underpaid. I have many friends in labor positions that make as much as teachers. And their vacation time is close to the time teachers have. The feeling back than was - so your underpaid, that's the profession you have chosen. live with it. Now that teachers make a good salary, they are criticized. They can't win. Last I heard the teachers were willing to take cuts, but the high command didn't want to met with them.

Mike38 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 19, 2011, 02:17:46 AM »

Quote from: TM7 on February 19, 2011, 02:04:56 AM

Quote from: Mike38 on February 18, 2011, 06:29:13 PM
carbineman, my wife and I are also going to Madison. We will be with the Tea Party group. It's a 110 mile trip north for us, not too bad.

TM7, better check your facts. Average yearly pay for a Wisconsin teacher is $60K with $40K in benifits. $100K a year is damn good money for this area.
.
Wasn't talking about teachers,,,was talking about clerks and snow plowmen. I assume teachers are on par with PD and FD, which were exempted from Walker's attack. Even so, I see some FD guys were standing pat with their brothers and sisters, so to speak. Seems like the unions are ready to make some concessions, but the Walker deal is primarily to end 'collective bargaining' and honoring contracts. T-Party should add some real clarity to the situation... . There is plenty of money in Wisconsin...if you can pry alittle loose from those logjamming it..time for them to help out now. T-Party runs smokescreen for this group.

The answer for teachers and education cost is obviously to inshore teachers from India (and Phillipines), who are highly educated, speak the King's English, and will work for a quarter of the costs. Perhaps the T=Party could bring up this suggestion..

..TM7
.

TM7, you don’t have a clue. There is not plenty of money in Wisconsin. They are $3.6 Billion in debt, and it will break $4 Billion instantly if this cut doesn’t go into effect. Wisconsin has a balanced budget amendment to their constitution. It is illegal for the state to be in debt. The Governor is only trying to follow the law, and the will of the people that recently elected him. I only wish my home state of Illinois had a leader with the balls the Wisconsin governor does.

Well, the van is gassed up, and ready to be pointed north. Wisconsin, here I come!

magooch · « **Reply #16 on:** February 19, 2011, 02:30:13 AM »

Wouldn't it be great if all workers had the ability to provide the funds to elect their bosses--the ones they will have to bargain with for their pay and benefits? Hey, we'd all be fat and sassy. Oh wait, it's only the guvmint employees that get to do that.

I say it's fine to allow guvmint employees to have collective bargaining, but their union, or association should never be allowed to contribute to the political campaigns of those who determine their salaries and benefits.

By the way, since when is a college education a guarantee of a cushy job with better than average pay and benefits? The real world seldom works that way, but you do what you have to do.

turk762 · « **Reply #17 on:** February 19, 2011, 02:44:06 AM »

On the local news they said the average pay for all affected was $48000 before benefits. Thats good money here. They big shooters that TM7 is talking about have packed up and left for the most part.

Here in La Crosse we have a lot of veneer millionairs playing with mom and dads money. Big shots are far and few in between. La Crosse boots are made in China (which was a big hit to the area), We still have Trane but they have threatened to leave. A friend has family in Milwaukee and they are not fairing much better down there. The big guys that you propose to tax are not really here.

The state jobs here have been some of the best jobs in this area for a long time, even the road crew jobs. People chomped at the bit for these jobs when they come up.
The PDs, from the way I understand it were hammered under Doyle(he didnt like LE, I guess). Dont know if FDs were as well.

Dee · « **Reply #18 on:** February 19, 2011, 02:52:37 AM »

The "Northern Unions" have always ran the D.C. political crowd, or the the state crowd up there. And the southern states that are not in deep do-do like Texas will furnish the tax dollars to continue supporting the unions. Just like GM and Chrysler. Ford may not have taken a bail out, but a UAW member is a UAW member.
We have teachers unions down here in Texas also, and may the Unions be damned. It's time to clean the house and throw out the garbage. It has smelled up the property for too long. The Democrats and Republican RINOs should have been hung for treason long ago, instead of being elected over and over to further denigrate the country.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #19 on:** February 19, 2011, 05:17:39 AM »

TM your "plowmen" or better know as highway workers make 50 to 70k a year at the state level and 40 to 60k at the county level, at least here in Minnesota. They pay very little towards their benefits and retirement.

Pat/Rick · « **Reply #20 on:** February 19, 2011, 05:30:28 AM »

Before folks start their protesting they need to figure their pay PLUS their benefit package. I just don't see alot of thay happening.

Sooner or later the politicos are gonna have to stop running away and stand fast while telling their constituents that they've run out of their money.

Folks that strike these days........well..........I just don't see them as very smart and wonder how some of them can be intelligent enough to even call themselves "educators".

I have never seen "collective bargaining" listed or mentioned in the Constitution nor listed as a "Constitutional right". Must be kinda like them protesters that say health care/education/driving/etc/etc, are rights too

billy_56081 · « **Reply #21 on:** February 19, 2011, 06:00:14 AM »

So TM are you saying to steal this money from the folks that saved their money?

XD40SC · « **Reply #22 on:** February 19, 2011, 06:20:56 AM »

Quote from: Pat/Rick on February 19, 2011, 05:30:28 AM

Before folks start their protesting they need to figure their pay PLUS their benefit package. I just don't see alot of that happening.

Sooner or later the politicos are gonna have to stop running away and stand fast while telling their constituents that they've run out of their money.

Folks that strike these days........well..........I just don't see them as very smart and wonder how some of them can be intelligent enough to even call themselves "educators".

I have never seen "collective bargaining" listed or mentioned in the Constitution nor listed as a "Constitutional right". Must be kinda like them protesters that say health care/education/driving/etc/etc, are rights too

Education is a right.Remember George W and the NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND ACT. People had better be careful what they do about education. We are already behind China and other countries. To cut back on education to save money is a double edged sword.

Cabin4 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 19, 2011, 06:27:43 AM »

TM, The US has the highest corp tax rate of any advanced industialized country in the world. Its one of the reasons companies are forced to off shore so they can compete. Raising the corp tax will only cause a further loss of jobs resulting in less tax revenue. I can tell you from first hand experiance this is the real case.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 19, 2011, 09:56:33 AM »

Um ah oh duhh! Who pays these normal folks who pay taxes. Hmmm ding ding ding, it is for the most part corporations, you know the employers. Government workers do not in reality pay taxes, they only return part of the tax money that they were given as their pay. We need to cut government and we need to do it now and at all levels.

Pat/Rick · « **Reply #25 on:** February 19, 2011, 09:59:20 AM »

Quote from: XD40SC on February 19, 2011, 06:20:56 AM

Quote from: Pat/Rick on February 19, 2011, 05:30:28 AM
Before folks start their protesting they need to figure their pay PLUS their benefit package. I just don't see alot of that happening.

Sooner or later the politicos are gonna have to stop running away and stand fast while telling their constituents that they've run out of their money.

Folks that strike these days........well..........I just don't see them as very smart and wonder how some of them can be intelligent enough to even call themselves "educators".

I have never seen "collective bargaining" listed or mentioned in the Constitution nor listed as a "Constitutional right". Must be kinda like them protesters that say health care/education/driving/etc/etc, are rights too
Education is a right.Remember George W and the NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND ACT. People had better be careful what they do about education. We are already behind China and other countries. To cut back on education to save money is a double edged sword.

There's a reason we are behind other nations. IMO its because of "tenure" and the fed gov't getting involved. The NCLB Act was mislabelled, it should have been "The Dumbing Down of America Act". Liberals teaching further deteriorated our educational system with their belief that ALL kids have the RIGHT to go onto college. I still ascertain that education is a priveledge. We may have to agree to disagree on this point. Education is certainly not a Constitutional or a human Right.Like alot of things, it's a priveledge.

XD40SC · « **Reply #26 on:** February 19, 2011, 10:49:25 AM »

Pat/Rick. Because of Tenure- Really? Where does 1. the kids not caring or 2. the parents not caring ,or 3.no home discipline and guidance on the child ,4. drugs and alcohol - fit into the equation. A woman with an Asian background took alot of heat recently for her high expectations for her children. I think she was called the dragon lady. Her children excelled because she had high expectations for them and passed those expections down to her children. How many Americans push their children. How many parents want to be buddies instead of parents. How many parents hold their children accountable instead of blaming others. Tenure may be a part of it where there is tenure- not all states have tenure, but believe me there are bigger reasons for our school failing. it boils down to this-
THE TEACHERS ARE AFRAID OF THE ADMINISTRATORS- THE ADMINISTRATORS ARE AFRAID OF THE SCHOOL BOARD-THE SCHOOL BOARD IS AFRAID OF THE PARENTS- THE PARENTS ARE AFRAID OF THE CHILDREN AND THE CHILDREN AREN'T AFRAID OF ANYTHING.

Pat/Rick · « **Reply #27 on:** February 19, 2011, 11:54:00 AM »

Absolutely those four points are very well in the equation. There will always be those who just don't care. How much of that is due to gov't involvment already? Many of those probably receive some sort of assistance and many are probably there to "play the system". The "I don't have to feed my kids because the school will do it" parents are never, or never going to expect their kids to achieve. Just learn the system.Too many use school as a babysitting service, and the no child left behind act has done nothing but emphasize it. More resources have been redirected to turn our schools into gov't funded day care facilities. My reasoning for the fed to not be involved with their liberal PC solutions, carried out by a largely liberal,PC, teaching force. Tenure? yes indeed, what other profession guarantees a job, basically just for showing up and going through the motions? "The old "I've been a teacher for 28 years, you can't fire me I have tenure". The fault is not entirely on the educational system, but I sure have not seen any positive steps to improve it. Not all kids are going to excell and go onto college. So why not concentrate on getting the basic education requirements taken care of by the time they're sixteen and start these kids into an apprenticeship or trade school, so when they are 18 YO "adults" they can be contributing members of our society. Its frustrating for for all of us to have to watch the decline, and there are several mitigating factors involved. Since the inception of our federal dept of education in 1972, we should have expected and demanded better results than "no child left behind". It too is not working. Unless lowering standards is the solution. I guess if I didn't have grandkids going and going into school it wouldn't bother me as much. (This opinion is worth exactly the same as the purchase price)

carbineman · « **Reply #28 on:** February 19, 2011, 01:46:50 PM »

This discussion like many I had today at the Support Walker Rally is akin to the old adage about trying to teach a pig to sing. "It's a waste of your time and it annoys the pig".

I will say that today nobody changed my mind and I didn't change theirs either. My whole take on this and what I relayed to those back the government union employees today was. Knock your self out trying to live your dream, just don't ask me to pay for it.

I don't think this is going to end well for the government employee unions. It doesn't really matter what each of us think or want. It only matters what the votes in the legislature are.

After politicians kicked the can down the road for a good long while, the can got stuck against the curb and now push comes to shove.

All I can say is the the government employees collective bargaining privilege or so called "right of the group" should not nix my individual right of taxation without representation. Now with Governor Walker and the legislature I have representation.

Remember what the Halfrican said, "Elections have consequences and we won." Well guess what happened.........................

XD40SC · « **Reply #29 on:** February 19, 2011, 02:08:12 PM »

Pat/Rick. Can you name the states where teachers have tenure? My state doesn't and I know of several teachers that have lost their jobs. The 3 major reasons why a teacher will lose a job in my state are IMMORAL, ILLEGAL, INCOMPATENT. Any of there will get a teacher fired if proven. If there are teachers teaching that are incompatent, blame the school board or administration for not doing their jobs. And yes there is a teacher union in my state, but teachers do get fired.