Author Topic: Democratic senators bail ship  (Read 60372 times)

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Offline XD40SC

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #60 on: February 21, 2011, 02:53:20 PM »
REMEMBER- IF IT WERENT FOR TEACHERS, YOU WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS DISCUSSION..............HOW MUCH IS THAT WORTH????

Offline ironglow

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #61 on: February 21, 2011, 03:13:47 PM »
  REMEMBER- IF IT WEREN'T FOR VETERANS, TEACHERS WOULD BE TEACHING IN GERMAN, RUSSIAN OR FROM INSIDE A BURKA..
   HOW MUCH IS THAT WORTH ?

 
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline XD40SC

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #62 on: February 21, 2011, 03:32:43 PM »
THEY ARE BOTH PRICELESS.

Offline scootrd

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #63 on: February 21, 2011, 03:46:03 PM »
If I understand correctly The argument is not about Salaries or Benefits. The labor unions have already conceded those to help Wisconsin Governor balance the budget. So the stand off could end today.

The argument is over a non fiscal line item in the bill to end Labor union collective bargaining.

Perhaps the more appropriate approach to end the impasse is to vote on the 2 fiscal issues (which would unanimously pass) and put forth another Bill to tackle the collective bargaining issue as a stand alone issue.

Edited (Added  below) - 
This would allow Dems to return and the Gov to receive the 165 mil he is looking for by Friday.
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Offline carbineman

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #64 on: February 21, 2011, 04:00:44 PM »
If I understand correctly The argument is not about Salaries or Benefits. The labor unions have already conceded those to help Wisconsin Governor balance the budget. So the stand off could end today.

The argument is over a non fiscal line item in the bill to end Labor union collective bargaining.

Perhaps the more appropriate approach to end the impasse is to vote on the 2 fiscal issues (which would unanimously pass) and put forth another Bill to tackle the collective bargaining issue as a stand alone issue.

That is right. Sadly the concessions seems to be made after the damage was already done. I saw Walker on Fox News Sunday and he indicated he has nothing to bargain with. He indicated localities need the collective bargaining eliminated to help them balance their perspective budgets. From his end their is no negotiating.

Offline turk762

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #65 on: February 22, 2011, 02:49:07 AM »
The reason he is so dead set on killing collective bargaining is the teachers union have a strangle hold on the small communities. They are across the state getting the rewarded the same, regardless of size, income level of the local community, and size of the school and this is sufficating the rural communities that cannot afford it. We are more rural then urban or suburban, and have lots of poor counties. Not all have the money of Millwaukee, Madison, or Green Bay.

Walker wants the teachers to bargain at the local level not the state level, which I dont think is all that unreasonable. He is just going to give the rural communities a chance to negotiate benefits with the teachers. Yea, that sounds like a terrible idea!!! ??? Poor teachers.

WI is a wealthy state??? Were did you get this info????

Offline ironglow

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #66 on: February 22, 2011, 04:12:41 AM »
   Put an end to "collective bargaining"..a very good idea.  Early on when unions were necessary, collective BARGAINING was a necessary and useful tool.  In more recent years, particularly where public employees are concerned it has ceased to be collective bargaining and became collective DEMANDING..with their lap dog politicians giving them whatever they want !
  Well, most of those politicians have grabbed their big, fat wiusconsin retirement and slipped off to New Mexico or Florida, to spend it there.
  Collective DEMANDING is what got Wisconsin into the present fix they are in .. it should be done away with, simply because has been proven it can so easily be abused.
 It is indeed refreshing to see someone with courage installed in the Wisconsin state house.  I never thought I would say it, but I must repeat the U. of Wisconsin theme son...  "ON WISCONSIN" !!
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Cabin4

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #67 on: February 22, 2011, 04:36:28 AM »
My sister in laws husband worked as a Director level position in one of if not the largest school districts in IL. He retired at age 57 with 80% of his salary for the rest of his life and full medical & dental for him & his wife. If he dies before his wife, she continues with his pension & benys for the rest of her life. His penion income is nearly $120,000 per year and again, they pay nothing for the health and dental. All funded by the tax payers of IL. Someone will have to explain to me how this is fair?

Now he is a part time college professor at a local private collage making $50k a year. His wife is still a full time teacher in the public school system. Between the two of them they are making over $250k a year and pay nothing for health & dental. His wife will retire soon and take 80% or so of her pay for hte rest of her life.

So while I don;t begrudge anyone for making a good living, this is rediculous because its on the tax payers back. This is not private industry paying this tab. Our country is broke and so are the states. These teachers & administrators pensions are so far removed from what is competitive in the private sector anymore.

I hope Wisconsin breaks the Unions back. Tax payers deserve equity and fairness. 
Avery Hayden Wallace
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Offline jimster

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #68 on: February 22, 2011, 04:56:23 AM »
REMEMBER- IF IT WERENT FOR TEACHERS, YOU WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS DISCUSSION..............HOW MUCH IS THAT WORTH????

There is no money...so this post is irrelevant. 

Hard for some people to grasp the fact there is no money.  Even though they had teachers.  ;)


 

Offline XD40SC

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #69 on: February 22, 2011, 05:21:02 AM »
"Public employees have said they would agree to concessions Walker wants that would amount to an 8 percent pay cut on average, but they want to retain their collective bargaining rights. One Republican senator also has floated an alternative that would make the elimination of those rights temporary.Walker has repeatedly rejected both offers, saying local governments and school districts can't be hamstrung by the often lengthy collective bargaining process"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I SMELL A HIDDEN AGENDA

Offline Cabin4

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #70 on: February 22, 2011, 05:25:22 AM »
There is no hidden agenda on that point. Walker campaigned on that specific point. The voters, voted him in.
Avery Hayden Wallace
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Offline beerbelly

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #71 on: February 22, 2011, 06:16:13 AM »
guzzijohn, since you no longer teach in the classroom You must be part of the dead weight administrative branch of education. I see in some districts they have a principal and four or five vice-principals. Who knows how many secretaries and other useless staff!
  People are fed up with this fiefdom and are no longer going to allow the democrats to buy power by giving the education departments of their states tons of money to vote democratic. It's tax payer money! The teachers unions can hang it up the party is over!

Offline Mike38

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #72 on: February 22, 2011, 06:25:23 AM »
For those of you that think teachers are overpaid. You should get a degree and teach. If not you than have your children and grandchildren. After all { pay for only 9 months work, an easy job, sick days = of course not found in any of the private sector-,no student loans to repay= your children would get out of a 4 year college debt free because you the parent would pay for it. ,you, they can make America greater by being an excellent teacher and educating and motivating students, and getting rich to boot}.What an opportunity for you and your children. It's certainly worth looking into.


I'd be more then happy to get the pay of a Wisconsin teacher. Average pay there, $60K a year plus $40K in benifits = $100K a year. That's allmost twice what I make, and I have to work more hours to get it.

Offline Sensai

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #73 on: February 22, 2011, 06:43:44 AM »
I'm not debating the merits of the actions of the senators or the teachers, because I don't consider that they have merit.  I do think that senators leaving the Senate while it is in session and fleeing the state is abandonment of office, and they should not be allowed to return.  New elections should be held to fill their abandoned positions.  It reminds me of a two year old throwing a temper tantrum.
Life's too short to waste any of it,

 Gary

Offline Cabin4

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #74 on: February 22, 2011, 06:49:06 AM »
Agree, they have abondonded thier responsabilities as elected officials. They should be considered AWOL at some point. They are holding the people's government hostage.
Avery Hayden Wallace
Obama Administration: A corrupt criminal enterprise of bold face liars.
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Offline XD40SC

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #75 on: February 22, 2011, 07:14:52 AM »
For those of you that think teachers are overpaid. You should get a degree and teach. If not you than have your children and grandchildren. After all { pay for only 9 months work, an easy job, sick days = of course not found in any of the private sector-,no student loans to repay= your children would get out of a 4 year college debt free because you the parent would pay for it. ,you, they can make America greater by being an excellent teacher and educating and motivating students, and getting rich to boot}.What an opportunity for you and your children. It's certainly worth looking into.


I'd be more then happy to get the pay of a Wisconsin teacher. Average pay there, $60K a year plus $40K in benifits = $100K a year. That's allmost twice what I make, and I have to work more hours to get it.
I'm glad you want to better yourself.Make sure to let us know when you have enrolled in a university.

Offline beerbelly

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #76 on: February 22, 2011, 10:59:51 AM »
That sheep skin you have dose not mean you are intelligent! it just means you were indoctrinated at one of our socialest intuitions.

Offline ironglow

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #77 on: February 22, 2011, 11:36:54 AM »
I'm not debating the merits of the actions of the senators or the teachers, because I don't consider that they have merit.  I do think that senators leaving the Senate while it is in session and fleeing the state is abandonment of office, and they should not be allowed to return.  New elections should be held to fill their abandoned positions.  It reminds me of a two year old throwing a temper tantrum.


  Absolutely correct sensai;
   When the Obamanation Obamacare travesty came up for a vote..conservative house and senate members knew the Demonrats wopuld ram through their plan, no matter what...because they had the votes !  Still the conservative members showed up and argued and voted for a smarter way..since that is what their voters who elected them, expected them to do.
  That 's what  one calls "manning up "...
   Obviously the liberal elected representatives don't understand the first thing about "manning up" !
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ironglow

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #78 on: February 22, 2011, 12:00:44 PM »
That sheep skin you have dose not mean you are intelligent! it just means you were indoctrinated at one of our socialest intuitions.


 Right you are Beerbelly, used to be graduating from a university meant one had completed a course of study which required certain things...doesn't appear that way today.  I have only an associates degree and have taught to and beside university grads and never felt intimidated by them.  It does appear that some think that if one does not attend a university..their reading, studying and learning processes are neglected.  While that may be true for some, it surely is not true for all.  My students were surprised by the range of knowledge I had obtained and the queries I could answer wihout referencing an encyclopedia. I am not boasting, just stating how it shook out.
   Given the amount of quotas, set asides, and athletes with 4 yr degrees who can't read, write and speak with even a modicum of verbal or cognizant skills..the sheepskin no longer "proves" anything.
  Even in my advanced age, what some university grads don't know, often surprises me much more that what they do know !
          Some also seem to think that folks who work construction trades etc are bereft of a formal education...not true either.

   Sometimes a person who has done virtually nothing beyond graduating from college and worked at nothing more taxing than a cushy govt job such as "community organizer", believes they are well ahead intellectually among others of their own age.  How naive of them.
  My grandson, a 26 yr old Marine SFC (Special Ops) has learned much more than they in the same period of time. Sure he is involved in college studies, but the lessons he has learned rappelling down a rope from a helicopter, fighting house-to-house in Fallujah, engaging another sniper across the Euphrates or patrolling the streets of Kubasayh (Al Anbar Marines will recognize that name)..have shown and taught him more things these stay-behind, bored students with their mundane life will ever experience.
  There is much more to education than warming a seat !  Wisdom does not come from a book or video..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline guzzijohn

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #79 on: February 22, 2011, 12:31:10 PM »
Quote from BeerBelly:
Quote
guzzijohn, since you no longer teach in the classroom You must be part of the dead weight administrative branch of education.


First, my apologies that your teachers didn't teach you to read better. You should have noticed that I never referred to being an administrator and that I am paid on a teacher's scale, not an administrator's scale. Second, my current job has saved you, me and all the rest of us taxpayers millions of dollars. Can you say that of your job? How does my job save millions? I counsel and train students with significant disabilities to learn how to cope with their disabilities, how to work around the disability, how to become employable despite their disability. How to discover what they can do to become a productive individual and a taxpayer instead of becoming a welfare recipient. I work with businesses and employers in our community to educate and to assist them  so many people with significant disabilities can be a productive employees to them and increase their profits. I would guess over my career I have turned 100s into productive, taxpaying citizens that otherwise would have just collected disability payments instead for all of their adult life. The bottom line is that my job returns many fold to the taxpayer compared to what tax money is spent on me and I feel pretty darn good about my job.
GuzziJohn


Offline eye shot

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #80 on: February 22, 2011, 01:07:52 PM »
Oh the old work study program. The county board of education pays for an employer to put a student to work for a certain period of time. When the time runs out the employer dumps them and gets another and who pays for all this, guess what the tax payer.
RIP Mike. Died on July 14th, around 2am, with his family at his side, he went peacefully to be with god.

http://www.sent-trib.com/obituaries/michael-l-schulte

Offline XD40SC

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #81 on: February 22, 2011, 01:34:35 PM »
guzzi- since you work with students with severe disabilities, you should recognize the fact that some here aren't gonna change their opinions. Stop confusing them with the facts. In other words- you ain't gonna win. Save your energy for the good you do in society. If it helps, I know how important your work is. I wonder what their attitudes would be if they had children with disabilities. Thanks you for your service and for making the world a better place. Worth of helping children with disabilities=PRICELESS.

Offline beerbelly

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #82 on: February 22, 2011, 01:37:53 PM »
Yep , one more money eating feel good program!

Offline billy_56081

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #83 on: February 22, 2011, 02:22:07 PM »
The mainstreaming of the severely handicapped has forced American students to stay at the pace of the slow ones. Aside from the slowing of the pace many of them disrupt the things they are trying to teach.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline guzzijohn

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #84 on: February 22, 2011, 03:45:47 PM »
Yep, saving millions is a feel good program.
GuzziJohn

Offline carbineman

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #85 on: February 22, 2011, 05:19:49 PM »
Wisconsin: The Hemlock Revolution

Posted by JOE KLEIN Friday, February 18, 2011 at 12:51 pm251 Comments
Revolutions everywhere--in the middle east, in the middle west. But there is a difference: in the middle east, the protesters are marching for democracy; in the middle west, they're protesting against it. I mean, Isn't it, well, a bit ironic that the protesters in Madison, blocking the state senate chamber, are chanting "Freedom, Democracy, Union" while trying to prevent a vote? Isn't it ironic that the Democratic Senators have fled the democratic process? Isn't it interesting that some of those who--rightly--protest the assorted Republican efforts to stymie majority rule in the U.S. Senate are celebrating the Democratic efforts to stymie the same in  the Wisconsin Senate?

An election was held in Wisconsin last November. The Republicans won. In a democracy, there are consequences to elections and no one, not even the public employees unions, are exempt from that. There are no guarantees that labor contracts, including contracts governing the most basic rights of unions, can't be renegotiated, or terminated for that matter. We hold elections to decide those basic parameters. And it seems to me that Governor Scott Walker's basic requests are modest ones--asking public employees to contribute more to their pension and health care plans, though still far less than most private sector employees do. He is also trying to limit the unions' abilities to negotiate work rules--and this is crucial when it comes to the more efficient operation of government in a difficult time. When I covered local government in New York 30 years ago, the school janitors (then paid a robust $60,000 plus per year) had negotiated the "right" to mop the cafeteria floors only once a week. And we all know about the near-impossibility of getting criminal and morally questionable--to say nothing of less than competent--teachers fired. The negotiation of such contracts were acts of collusion rather than of mediation. Government officials were, in effect, bribing their most activist constituents.

Public employees unions are an interesting hybrid. Industrial unions are organized against the might and greed of ownership. Public employees unions are organized against the might and greed...of the public? Despite their questionable provenance, public unions can serve an important social justice role, guaranteeing that a great many underpaid workers--school bus drivers, janitors (outside of New York City), home health care workers--won't be too severely underpaid. That role will be kept intact in Wisconsin. In any given negotiation, I'm rooting for the union to win the highest base rates of pay possible...and for management to win the least restrictive work rules and guidelines governing how much truly creative public employees can be paid.

But we've had far too many state legislatures, of both parties, that have been cowed by the political power of the unions and enacted contracts that force state and city governments to be run for the benefit of their employees, rather than for their citizens. This situation is most egregious in far too many school districts across the nation. The events in Wisconsin are a rebalancing of power that, after decades of flush times and lax negotiating, had become imbalanced. That is also something that, from time to time, happens in a democracy.



Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2011/02/18/wisconsin-the-hemlock-revolution/#ixzz1Ee3CjYkV

Offline carbineman

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #86 on: February 22, 2011, 05:42:39 PM »
Yuup, We need to spend even more money and give teachers more benefits.

Two Thirds of Wisconsin eighth graders can't read proficiently.
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/blog/2011/02/22/two-thirds-of-wi-8th-graders-cant-read-proficiently/

Offline carbineman

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #87 on: February 22, 2011, 05:49:57 PM »
If I understand correctly The argument is not about Salaries or Benefits. The labor unions have already conceded those to help Wisconsin Governor balance the budget. So the stand off could end today.

The argument is over a non fiscal line item in the bill to end Labor union collective bargaining.

Perhaps the more appropriate approach to end the impasse is to vote on the 2 fiscal issues (which would unanimously pass) and put forth another Bill to tackle the collective bargaining issue as a stand alone issue.

Edited (Added  below) - 
This would allow Dems to return and the Gov to receive the 165 mil he is looking for by Friday.
.
That's right...I've been saying that for several posts now....its about 'collective bargaining', or eliminating it actually, which would bust unions on the race to the bottom as exemplfied by the T-Partyers here .

Wisconsin is a rather Dem voting state, except this time voters wanted to try the other flavor. So, there probably is lot of independents and dem switch voters.  When they elected Walker and his posse they never elected him to, nor did he ever publicly say:

..."I'M GOING TO BREAKUP UNIONS AND END COLLECTIVE BARGAINING'
..."I'M GOING TO MAKE JOBS BY ENDING PUBIC JOBS".. ;)
..."I'M GOING TO PRIVATIZE AS MANY GOV JOBS AS THEY WILL LET ME GET AWAY WITH."
..."I'M GOING TO SELL OFF THE PUBLIC ASSETS OF THE PEOPLE OF WISCONSIN FOR CENTS ON THE DOLLAR."
..."I'M GOING TO FOLLOW THE DICTATS OF THE KOCH BROS AND THEIR THINK TANKS."
..."I'M GOING TO LOWER THE WORKING STANDARDS OF ALL WORKING PEOPLE INCLUDING 'FREE-RIDERS'."
..."I'M GOING TO DOWNGRADE THE PENSIONS/BENIFITS OF WORKING AND PEOPLE ALREADY RETIRED''


He simply didn't say these things, at least in public, or he wouldn't have gotten elected..!! What he got elected to do was figure out how to repair the budget of Wisconsin primarily without plundering the State and debasing working people, or destroying the middle class....AND FIND OUT WHERE THE MONEY WENT WITHOUT BLAMING COMMON WORKERS AND TEACHERS FOR THE WHOLE MESS; AND GET SOME OF THAT MONEY BACK!!.

His diktats are exactly those of the plunders of the Russia at the end of the Cold War. ***The People of Wisconsin have to watch closely now as he quietly goes about 'privatizing' jobs and selling the assets of Wisconsin to his Oligarchal money supporters for pennies on the dollar, and secreted no-bid contracts....this could turn into a real heist.  The T-Party is essentialy clueless on this swindle, SO every Wisconsinite must watch very closely now....its your state....not Walker's, Koch's, or other oligarch's. Mass corpo-media will NOT keep you informed; instead they will mislead and run covers....you're on your own....watch closely!

Wisconsin is a wealthy state...there's no shortage of money in Wisconsin.


...TM7
.

I'm sure you can show us proof of all this. Your conspiracy theories are getting to be a bit overboard IMHO And again Show Us The Money you are talking about

Offline mirage1988

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #88 on: February 22, 2011, 10:12:04 PM »
Walkers speech tonight was spot on, unless you are sure that he was in charge of placing super-thermites in the twin towers.......

Offline ironglow

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Re: Democratic senators bail ship
« Reply #89 on: February 22, 2011, 11:28:21 PM »
Carbine man;
  I agree with most everything you have said, but consider this; the unrest in the mid east is only CALLED a movement towards democracy.  Remember, liberals make a life study of parsing words and/or ideas.
   Unfortunately, many of us when faced with the word "democracy", equate it with "freedom".  Such an assumption can be dangerous, especially when dealing with the radical left.  Their idea of freedom is..freedom for the 'elites' which they each consider themselves, and freedom for the "masses" as long as they do what the elites tell them to do. Plus of course, real democracy is one of the worst forms of government !
  Many do not yet know that our radical left, represented by international labor unions (AFL-CIO, SIEU etc) are behind the rioting in both the world's MIDEAST and America's MIDWEST !  They seem to think this is the time to make their long planned for "grab for power"..
  http://www.redstate.com/laborunionreport/2011/01/30/the-american-lefts-role-in-leading-mid-east-regime-change/

    It is recently reported that the pres has not even consulted with much of his cabinet for the two years he has held office, but has consulted regularly with Trumba..boss of AFL-CIO and Stern, boss of SIEU !  They both have boasted of regular visits with the messiah/king.
    This flurry of unrest is simply a grab for power by the socialists, who may find they "have a tiger by the tail" much to their,  and more importantly..OUR regret !
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)