Democratic senators bail ship

[Cheesehead]

billy,

Your endless, repetitive, redundant  name calling defines you.

I do not see where he was speaking to anyone person on or off this forum. He is talking about the folks who do little to nothing and expect a lot for their lack of effort. I.E., the folks on welfare and sadly to a very large extent any union and those who blindly follow the union leadership. Graybeard

[billy_56081]

Hey calling cutting taxes "spending" is sickening and a lie. Nothing but a bunch of thieves using the power of government to steal.

[scootrd]

Wisconsin's corporate tax rate at present is 7.9% Hmm lets see who's higher .....
Iowa, Pa, Mn, Il, AK, N.J, RI, ME, CA, DE, WV, IN, NH, VT MA, MD, OR,
lets examine the credits big business already gets in the state of WI ;

PROPERTY TAX EXEMPTIONS
• Machinery and Equipment used in Manufacturing
• Manufacturing, Merchant and Farm Inventories
• Computer Hardware and Software
• Tax Increment Districts Allowed for Cities, Villages and Towns
SALES AND USE TAX EXEMPTIONS
• Manufacturing Machinery and Equipment
• Manufacturing Consumables
• Pollution Abatement, Waste Treatment & Recycling Equipment
• Production Fuel and Electricity
TAX CREDITS
• Research Expenditure Credit
• Research Facilities Credit
• Engine Research Credits
• Film Production Credits (Effective 1/1/2008)
• Community Development Finance Authority Credit
• Supplement to the Federal Historical Rehabilitation Credit
• Dairy and Livestock Farm Investment Credits
• Development Opportunity Zone Program
• Economic Development Tax Credits
• Dairy Manufacturing Facility Investment Credits
• Meat Processing Facility Investment Credits
OTHER SPECIAL TAX INCENTIVES AND TAX TREATMENT
• Single Sales Factor Apportionment (Fully Effective 1/1/2008)
• 60-percent Exclusion for Long-Term Capital Gains
• Special Capital Gains Treatment for Wisconsin Small Businesses
• Wisconsin law permits formation of Subchapter S Corporations
• Wisconsin law permits formation of limited liability companies (LLCs)
• Deduction for Corporate Dividends Received
• No inheritance and gift taxes
VENTURE AND INVESTMENT CAPITAL
• Angel Investment Credit
• Early Stage Seed Investment Credit

I'm sure there is more this all I had time to research !!!

Not enough ? ok I got a great Idea , lets give 'em some more Hoping they will come (or stay) and create more Jobs (They wont,  Outsourcing is more profitable) But they will take the tax breaks anyways.

and Then This is the good part  -

LETS PUT IT ON THE BACKS OF LABORERS to suck it up and pick up the shortfall.  Yep sounds good to me ...the good ol American way , screw the little guy , screw the middle class (doesn't exists anymore anyway). Screw the Laborer.
But wait there is more  -  This is the really really good part  -  Now what we do is try and take away their rights to collective bargain. This way , we can turn the clock back 100 years and silence those pesky workers who want to bargain for a decent livable wage, safe working conditions, vacations, reasonable work week etc...

What a Joke.  You guys really are smoking some good stuff.

[Cabin4]

Whats this "putting it on the backs of labor"? Sorry, but the state workers unions are not "labor". You might have a story here if this was about a Gov fighting the private labor unions. Not the case. These unions represent workers that work for the state government in a non-labor market. The state does not produce any product. We are not taking about labor unions in auto, truck, tractor, ect factories. These union workers are paid for by the tax payers. Tax payers deserve fairness as well. Yes, jobs are moving off shore and the states better figure out something to try and convinse businees to come/stay. If they don't, its going to get worse.

[carbineman]

scootrd, corporations are either going to leave the state or charge more for their product, they are not going to pay the tax/fine out of their pocket. We would be dishonest with ourselves by thinking otherwise.

In the trucking business which I'm familiar with the increased cost of fuel had been dealt with two ways, A fuel surcharge by the trucker, or he/she has gone out of business. No negotiation no bargaining just do it or quit.

Buddy life is not fair, government employee union workers bend over your time has arrived. 

[billy_56081]

Wisconsin's corporate tax rate at present is 7.9% Hmm lets see who's higher .....
Iowa, Pa, Mn, Il, AK, N.J, RI, ME, CA, DE, WV, IN, NH, VT MA, MD, OR,
lets examine the credits big business already gets in the state of WI ;

PROPERTY TAX EXEMPTIONS
• Machinery and Equipment used in Manufacturing
• Manufacturing, Merchant and Farm Inventories
• Computer Hardware and Software
• Tax Increment Districts Allowed for Cities, Villages and Towns
SALES AND USE TAX EXEMPTIONS
• Manufacturing Machinery and Equipment
• Manufacturing Consumables
• Pollution Abatement, Waste Treatment & Recycling Equipment
• Production Fuel and Electricity
TAX CREDITS
• Research Expenditure Credit
• Research Facilities Credit
• Engine Research Credits
• Film Production Credits (Effective 1/1/2008)
• Community Development Finance Authority Credit
• Supplement to the Federal Historical Rehabilitation Credit
• Dairy and Livestock Farm Investment Credits
• Development Opportunity Zone Program
• Economic Development Tax Credits
• Dairy Manufacturing Facility Investment Credits
• Meat Processing Facility Investment Credits
OTHER SPECIAL TAX INCENTIVES AND TAX TREATMENT
• Single Sales Factor Apportionment (Fully Effective 1/1/2008)
• 60-percent Exclusion for Long-Term Capital Gains
• Special Capital Gains Treatment for Wisconsin Small Businesses
• Wisconsin law permits formation of Subchapter S Corporations
• Wisconsin law permits formation of limited liability companies (LLCs)
• Deduction for Corporate Dividends Received
• No inheritance and gift taxes
VENTURE AND INVESTMENT CAPITAL
• Angel Investment Credit
• Early Stage Seed Investment Credit

I'm sure there is more this all I had time to research !!!

Not enough ? ok I got a great Idea , lets give 'em some more Hoping they will come (or stay) and create more Jobs (They wont,  Outsourcing is more profitable) But they will take the tax breaks anyways.

and Then This is the good part  -

LETS PUT IT ON THE BACKS OF LABORERS to suck it up and pick up the shortfall.  Yep sounds good to me ...the good ol American way , screw the little guy , screw the middle class (doesn't exists anymore anyway). Screw the Laborer.
But wait there is more  -  This is the really really good part  -  Now what we do is try and take away their rights to collective bargain. This way , we can turn the clock back 100 years and silence those pesky workers who want to bargain for a decent livable wage, safe working conditions, vacations, reasonable work week etc...

What a Joke.  You guys really are smoking some good stuff.

So being a thief that doesn't steal as much makes them less of a thief? No wonder this country is so messed up. Tax cuts are more spending? Wow the parasite class will try to rationalise their theft in any way they can. SICK!

[Cabin4]

The US has the highest corp/business tax rate of all industrialized nations. Higher than Germany, France, Canada, ect. The US is forcing corp/business out of this country. We are competing with these other countries. Some states are trying to combat this with tax incentives.

[scootrd]

The US has the highest corp/business tax rate of all industrialized nations. Higher than Germany, France, Canada, ect. The US is forcing corp/business out of this country. We are competing with these other countries. Some states are trying to combat this with tax incentives.

Yep and lets Juxtapose that with Corps screaming Oh whoa is us we are taxed so high  -  Yet ...... here it come get ready  -

------------------- > The Government Accountability Office said 72 percent of all foreign corporations and about 57 percent of U.S. companies doing business in the United States paid no federal income taxes for at least one year between 1998 and 2005. More than half of foreign companies and about 42 percent of U.S. companies paid no U.S. income taxes for two or more years in that period, the report said.

During that time corporate sales in the United States totaled $2.5 trillion, according to Democratic Sens. Carl Levin of Michigan and Byron Dorgan of North Dakota, who requested the GAO study.

The report did not name any companies. The GAO said corporations escaped paying federal income taxes for a variety of reasons including operating losses, tax credits and an ability to use transactions within the company to shift income to low tax countries.

With the U.S. budget deficit this year running close to the record $413 billion that was set in 2004 and projected to hit a record $486 billion next year, lawmakers are looking to plug holes in the U.S. tax code and generate more revenues.

Dorgan in a statement called the report "a shocking indictment of the current tax system." Levin said it made clear that "too many corporations are using tax trickery to send their profits overseas and avoid paying their fair share in the United States."

The study showed about 28 percent of large foreign corporations, those with more than $250 million in assets, doing business in the United States paid no federal income taxes in 2005 despite $372 billion in gross receipts, the senators said. About 25 percent of the largest U.S. companies paid no federal income taxes in 2005 despite $1.1 trillion in gross sales that year, they said.

And it gets even better they pay no taxes , Take advantage of the incentives , outsource for cheaper labor overseas,
claim all the Costs in the US, and all their profits overseas .... what a great game.

I feel no sympathy for corporations.

I'll stand with the Union's  ...Thanks.

[billy_56081]

So you union parasites not only want to lower production by using poor performing lazy union labor, but you also want the government to steal more money from them intaxes. No wonder why America can't compete in the world economy!

[Cabin4]

I think it great they paid no federal tax. They did pay state tax and employ Americans in the private sector on our soil. They raise thier revenue from making and selling a product or service which makes more real jobs. Their employees pay state, local and federal income and property tax. The state union workers provide nothing of value to the economy. They just suck money out of the system at a higher rate then thier counter parts in the private sector of which the private sector is paying their wages!

[Cabin4]

Cheese, Scootr, others,

Billy asks a good question. WHat would you propose a state do to fix massive overspending? All they can do in an economy like this is find ways to reduce spending. What spending do youy propose they cut?

[Graybeard]

I've done some deleting and some editing here. Watch the tone of this thread or it ends. Talk to the issues NOT to each other or the thread is done.

[ironglow]

  Joke of the month:

          Public sector onion members calling themselves "LABOR"..

      Have you observed ?

 1) Clerks at city hall are so courteous and stay with you a couple extra minutes during lunch,  just to get your permit finished ?

 2) How cops are busy catching crooks, rather than ticketing their financial benefactors for tinted windows ?

 3)  Road 'workers' say,"OK,  we have all the cones picked up and we're being paid for 8 hours; so I'll just pull some weeds around guard rails until then" !

 4) The teacher who says, " My pay comes from ALL taxpayers, so I won't cut classes to do partisan stuff" and I won't talk 'politics' to my students.

 5) .....A total of seven highway "workers" filling a 9" pothole with asphalt ?
 
         I have heard that the Chinese have invented a shovel which leans upon itself...that should free up at  least 6 "laborers".. 

[Dee]

Being a former owner of two businesses, I fully understand the perils of over-spending, or foolish decisions that will affect the business long term. Before, during, and after my ventures into the business owner operator realm, I have always believed that if you don't like the the way the OWNER is operating his business, then QUIT!, and start your own business.
In the beginning for instance, the UNIONS were formed to help for the most part in not only a FAIR wage, but a SAFE WORKING ENVIORMENT from bosses that had ignored both, and took advantage of the (at the time) down trodden, and disadvantaged worker.
HOWEVER! As with anything, power corrupts, and absolute power, corrupts absolutely. Today we have laws against mistreatment, and unfair, or unsafe work practices, but the unions have continued to glom up power, and throw money gleaned as "union dues" toward politicians that will bow to the "all mighty dollar". Well, we have finally hit the saturation point, where the corruption can no longer be sustained on the tax payers back, i.e. DOLLARS.
Like it or not, it has come to a loud, protesting end, and like the spoiled child that has gotten everything he or she wanted all his or her life, the unions and the "teachers" are crying because they don't want to pay for what they get. They want US to GIVE IT TO THEM.
When I was youngster, I worked for a company called "Continental Conveyor". They made Cotton Gin Machinery, and on days a UNION FORK TRUCK DRIVER, didn't show up, I filled in. When the job eventually came open, I was FORCED TO JOIN THE UNION TO GET THE JOB. Now, instead of being a FORK TRUCK DRIVER, I was a "CLASS A" FORK TRUCK DRIVER. One day while I was moving a piece of gin machinery, a small snap on cover came off, and fell in the floor. Instead of hollering for someone to come get it, I got off my fork truck and picked the cover up, which was about the size of a medium sized car hub cap, and snapped it back on. Another union worker saw this, filed a grievance, and the company was forced to pay him "CLASS A FORK TRUCK DRIVER WAGES FOR THAT ENTIRE DAY".
I have over the years, backed trucks into UNION DOCKS, and the performance of the UNION DOCK HANDS, is pathetic. They will unload you, WHEN THEIR READY, IF THEIR READY, AND IF EVERYTHING IS JUST RIGHT, AND WILL TAKE THEIR TIME DOIN IT. ALL THE WHILE, THEIR MAKING ABOUT A 1/3rd MORE THAN NON-UNION WORKERS DOIN THE SAME JOB AT OTHER DOCKS.
What you are all watching in Wisconsin, and other places, is not "mistreatment of workers" but, instead. The END OF AN ERA OF OVERPAID SPOILED WORKERS EXPERIENCING BANKRUPTCY OF A STATE BECAUSE OF IT. You may not like it, and you can blame whomever you want. But it really doesn't matter, because BROKE IS BROKE, and you might as well get used to it, and try to figure out how not to get here again.
I have often said, that if the workers were to try and tell me, what I was going to pay them, I would send them down the road, as I was paying them what I could afford. The worker THINKING THEY CAN BOSS THE BOSS, IS ABSURD!

[ironglow]

DEE;

   Thank you, thank you.. You worded it so very well !  Wish I could have explained it so expertly and concisely..   I know of NOBODY who disputes the original reason for unions..safety, coal mine abuses etc...  However; as you said, once some sensible gains were acheived..then came union bosses and greed.  Back in 1968-1971, I worked there in the "golden triangle" in Texas..a union member.
  Not chiding Texas, union practices are everywhere..
   The practices of the union disgusted me, simply because I try to be an honest man.  Ridiculous crap, like the cover you picked up !
  One day I was working inside the bottom of a "cracking tower" in the biggest refinery in Port Arthur..one of the biggest in the world at the time.  I had to spray paint the inside with bitumastic, an unpleasant material to work with.  Air lines ran throughout he refinery, so I started to hook up my air lines...but I was interrupted by some fellow who said; "you can't do that"!  I replied, why not..here's my hose, there's the outlet..why not" ?
   The guy says; " you must have a 'stationary engineer' do that"..      I say, "Oh great! Where can I find that guy"
       He says; " He may be out by the highway at the snack stand"...so I go out to the snack stand, only to come back half hour later without finding him... So I ask, "Where else might he be "?    Then Herman Munster says, " You could walk down to the smoking area and see if he is there"..     Half an hour later, I come back quite angry and connect the hose myself !  I could have gotten in trouble I suppose, but I figured I am getting   XX dsollars per hour to WORK..not to sit on my butt  or wander around.
   
       I have seen so many jobs go overseas and I am not surprised..
  I doubt a fork truck driver in China would think it too much work to pick up a fallen snap-cap; and I doubt a painter in Japan or Korea would consider himself misused if he had to hook up his own air hose. 
       
      Wake up hard-line union people, the whining and charades are over....perhaps now our economy has a small chance at recovery !

[JamesIII]

Just my opinion and we all know what that's worth!!


Lack of a quorum has been used at all levels of government. If they want it to stop then it is up to the Ethics committee to put a halt to it. Now you are asking your elected officials to police themselves, it won't happen. Maybe Wisconsin has a recall statute that could be implemented, that would get their attention, but it is also purposely slow.


Taxes are an interesting topic. Only one group actually pays taxes from their income and that is individuals. Corporations, companies what ever you want to call them consider taxes to be an expense covered by the product or service they sell. It is possible for these expenses (taxes) to become so high that the companies product becomes non-competitve and sells fall or the company moves to a place where the overall expense structure makes their product competitve.


The tax codes of most states have been developed over many years. The exemptions or lack of them are the result of problems that were addressed at some time. That problem may or maynot still exist, but both political parties have had their turn at shaping these codes and that is what you have to live with for now.

Unions are a socialistic organization, meaning they want to operate outside of the capitalistic form of competetion. This is not neccessarily a bad thing. Unfortunately, the income stream used to pay for the services they provide IS subject to outside competition. The two differring principals will always butt heads as each goes through its normal historic cycles.


I really don't see the problem with the states budget other than the elected officials are not doing their job. When the elected officials say they have nothing else to cut or any more money streams available, it means everyting left is of equal importance. Simply take the budget shortfall and multiply it by the % a line item represents and send it to the department heads to deal with. When services get cut it will be up to the individuals to decide what they think is important.


JamesIII

[billy_56081]

When Government unions strike, they strike against TAXPAYERS!

[Mohawk]

When worked for one of the Big 3 auto makers during my school years the company actually paid a union worker $75 K a year to spend half hour a day to sweep paint chips. The rest of his 8 hour day was spent reading a newspaper and lunch. It not only govt unions that have a black eye.  They love to advertise these hard working union emplyees hard at work on the assembly line. What they don't advertise is the 20 employees doing absolutely nothing but collecting a pay check.

[billy_56081]

I agree Mohawk, it is not only the government unions, while the government unions cost the taxpayer more, the unions in private business cost the consumer more on the end prices because of poorer production and higher labor costs. Has anyone ever wondered why the unions are big supporters of raising the minimum wage? Well it is not as they try to portray that " they are worried about the poor entry level employee", it is that their contracts are tied to the minimum wage so it is in effect giving them a raise. What they fail to understand is that these "raises" only drive up the cost of goods.

[ironglow]

FYI...Liberal bogger claims Wis Police have joined forces with the rest of Labor in 'solidarity'....refusing to kick demonstrators out of capital bldg...

video in link below:

http://understory.ran.org/2011/02/25/breaking-wisconsin-police-have-joined-protest-inside-state-capitol/

?

...TM7 {quote}


    TM;
   Your statement and link only points out that some people do not honor their pledges.  Most offices require some type of pledge or at least a 'code of conduct'. to ensure the public that their public servants have the interests of the public foremost.  State lawmakers  normally take a pledge to uphold the law and their state constitution.
      Here we have two groups who are ignoring the law and constitution while pursuing their partisan interests.  You see this as admirable; while I do not .

[Cabin4]

Fire the police that refuse to follow orders. What right to union workers have over no union or anyone else for that matter? You can't just over take the capitol and disrupt state government. FIRE THE COPS and the state Union slugs who produce nothing except a drain on the tax payers. Fire the teachers for not going to the class rooms and filing false sick leave notices given to them by doctors at the demonstration lines. File criminal charges against the doctors who are giving away sick notices knowingly and willingly against the oath. They have it on camera! Who do these state union workers think they are? fire them all.

[billy_56081]

I agree with cabin these parasites need to be fired.

[scootrd]

Fire the corrupt Governor , who has been bought and paid for by big business. A Governor who feels governing seems to include Quid Pro Quo to his cronies. A Governor Who seems to  think his position allows him to over-reach and take away 75 years of hard fought battles to ensure a livable wage, fair work Practices, safe working conditions. 

A Governor who thinks the key to "fixing" a $137 million dollar budget shortfall is accomplished by eliminating collective bargaining rights for public workers, Rather than going after the two-thirds of Wisconsin corporations who pay no tax in the state.!!!

Maybe he can then become the Pool boy or Limo Driver for the Koch estate.

[beerbelly]

Fire the corrupt Governor

You lefties will have the opportunity when he runs for reelection! For now guess you will just have to live with him!

[Dee]

Fire the corrupt Governor , who has been bought and paid for by big business. A Governor who feels governing seems to include Quid Pro Quo to his cronies. A Governor Who seems to  think his position allows him to over-reach and take away 75 years of hard fought battles to ensure a livable wage, fair work Practices, safe working conditions. 

A Governor who thinks the key to "fixing" a $137 million dollar budget shortfall is accomplished by eliminating collective bargaining rights for public workers, Rather than going after the two-thirds of Wisconsin corporations who pay no tax in the state.!!!

Maybe he can then become the Pool boy or Limo Driver for the Koch estate.

Wave your fist, and shout all you want. Just don't swing it at me, or ask me for a handout. I owe you NOTHING!

[billy_56081]

Liberal parasites equate fixing a budget shortfall by stealing more from the taxpayers.

Conservatives equate fixing a budget shortfall by cutting spending.

I am glad I am not in the company of thieves.

[Cabin4]

A budget deficit cannot be created by a reduction of income. It can only be created by an inability to reduce spending. You can't fire the gov, he was elected by the People.

I still have not heard a proposal on how to fix the budget.

[scootrd]

To start with  -
I agree , Public employees should pay more for pension and health care benefits,  They already conceded to the fiscal items the Governor wanted.
I also agree they should keep Walker's proposal to refinance state bonds, saving $165 million in the current fiscal year. The governor has said that measure -- which would do more to balance the budget than any of his other proposals.


I do not agree they should move to strip Collective bargaining.

I also don't understand Why is the Governor is simultaneously adding over $150 million to the budget deficit by rescinding tax hikes on those couples earning over $300,000 or individuals earning $150,000 at the same time as asking for sacrifices from people earning a fraction of those salaries.

I also don't understand if there is such a deficit why Walker gave $117 million in tax cuts for corporations, and why two-thirds of Wisconsin corporations pay no tax in the state as all.!!!

I could see an incentive for Job creation , But all these Corps are doing is taking a no tax break and outsourcing overseas.

[billy_56081]

A budget deficit cannot be created by a reduction of income. It can only be created by an inability to reduce spending. You can't fire the gov, he was elected by the People.

I still have not heard a proposal on how to fix the budget.

Cabin they have put out their proposal to fix the budget, as always with these liberal parasites it is the same, STEAL MORE MONEY FROM THE TAXPAYERS.

[billy_56081]

To start with  -
I agree , Public employees should pay more for pension and health care benefits,  They already conceded to the fiscal items the Governor wanted.
I also agree they should keep Walker's proposal to refinance state bonds, saving $165 million in the current fiscal year. The governor has said that measure -- which would do more to balance the budget than any of his other proposals.


I do not agree they should move to strip Collective bargaining.

I also don't understand Why is the Governor is simultaneously adding over $150 million to the budget deficit by rescinding tax hikes on those couples earning over $300,000 or individuals earning $150,000 at the same time as asking for sacrifices from people earning a fraction of those salaries.

I also don't understand if there is such a deficit why Walker gave $117 million in tax cuts for corporations, and why two-thirds of Wisconsin corporations pay no tax in the state as all.!!!

I could see an incentive for Job creation , But all these Corps are doing is taxing a no tax break and outsourcing overseas.

Looks like they need to quit stealing from the other third! The jobs created by private business create ALL revenue within the state, government jobs create ZERO revenue.