Democratic senators bail ship

[XD40SC]

IF YOU THINK EDUCATION IS EXPENSIVE- TRY PAYING FOR IGNORANCE!

That from one of the highly educated, most personally sacrificed "teachers" of the nations young minds.   

I don't understand what you are attempting to say. Care to elaborate?

[ironglow]

  To the union sympathizers;
    Public "service" unions have demanded much and wimpy politicians have caved..to the point of breaking the states. The unions have been giving millions of $$$ to Democrats to fund their election campaigns...money they could have put into pensions...but they didn't ! Now, the two most frequent White House visitors ..Andy Stern (SIEU) and Trumka (AFL-CIO)  are demanding that the taxpayer bail out their union's slipping pension plans.  Is it possible that Democrat politicians voting on this measure may just have a "conflict of interests" ?
 
 http://biggovernment.com/laborunionreport/2010/07/30/why-democrats-are-pushing-the-165-billion-union-pension-bailout/

  If my pension plan goes bust..it goes bust, I don't want or expect my hard working neighbor to support me "in the style to which I have become accustomed"...
   After all, my neighbor may just work harder and for less pay than I do...and not even have a pension plan of his own !
 
  You're the guys who are always moaning about "fairness"..just how fair would that be ?

[XD40SC]

Both parties have gotten alot of money from special intrest groups. Yes even the Republicans get theirs from wealthy business to have things " go their way'. Always was- always will be.

[billy_56081]

Looks like this is happening in Ohio. My bro in law voted against these union parasites in the state house.

[Pass Lake]

I negelected to say what my father did as a public servant.  He was a chief petty officier in the US Navy.  He could even go to a Vet hospital and get free care!  That was part of his contract.  He got to fly for free and got to travel around the world for work.  He even got to visit Cuba for 2 weeks in January and was paid extra for flight time!  He could have steak and eggs for breakfast for free too!  It was all paid by the taxpayer.  Wisconsin public employees don't have any of these job perks.

Are we saying retired military benefits should be cut too?   

[ironglow]

Pass Lake;
   Nice try...comparing apples to oranges...

[magooch]

What has been the affect of state and other public employees having pay and benefits that are above what private sector employees have.  State and local governments are in a hole that they cannot tax themselves out of--that's what.

The state I live in reformed public employee's pension plans years ago, but it is still in trouble.  Our state government has been cutting for the last few years, but there is still a multi-billion dollar deficit.  It's a danged good thing that states have to balance their budgets, or our state would be in the same shape as our federal government.  I'll bet you can't guess which party has had the governorship and the control of the state legislaure for years and years.

[ironglow]

  TM says;
  "   It looks like the Wisconsin retirement system relies heavily on 457 wage deferrals, invested as a group for low costs. You can invest/deferr 100% of your salary up to $16,500 per year generally. This is far less beneficial then S.E.P. retirement systems that the private sector enjoys. It seems that 1/4 of Wisconsin employees are not covered by the Social Security System which the private sector universally enjoys (or hates!)"
             

   Yup TM;
  Looks like the members deferred it and the union gave it to the DNC...they can thank the slimy one they elected as bosses ! 

[Buckskin]

It looks like the Wisconsin retirement system relies heavily on 457 wage deferrals, invested as a group for low costs. You can invest/deferr 100% of your salary up to $16,500 per year generally. This is far less beneficial then S.E.P. retirement systems that the private sector enjoys.

Please elaborate on the retirement system that is so superior in the private sector?  I can only defer $16,500 per year also in my 401K.

Although, a major portion of public employees wages come from taxation...a very large portion comes from tuitions, licenses, fines, sale of power and resources, rentals and many more revenue sources from the state.

All of which are elevated to to act as another form of taxation.

People working for the State also pay taxes...a kick back to the state actually...so they are also bound to the the governmental system as well.

Take out of one pocket and put it in another.

Contrary to common opinion the State IS the biggest supporter and subsidizer of private industry in the State. This is because they educate the children that will be useful workers, provide and maintain roads for workers to get to their industry jobs, provide and regulate power grids and water sources, secure right of ways for utilities and roads, oversee any number of conflicting and environmnetal issues which impinge on the general public and private industry; provide for public safety and so on and so forth.

We can do this same function better for less cost.  For instance, how about letting schools get their insurance from somewhere other than the teachers union??? That would save millions right there, but no the union won't stand for that...

In fact, as time goes on it seems the private corpo sector benefits more and more from the general State system and the citizen/public less and less...the system has become skewed. This is most evident with the Koch government in Wisconsin...**First Walker gives a huge corpo tax cut, but then announces a huge budget issue..what's up with that? Then he blames it on workers who are the biggest subsidizers of corporations in the first place..!! The workers get their noses rubbed in this, as represented by Unions, but concede and give back wages to maintain their benefits...so they're taking less. BUT this is not enough for the Koch governmnet...they go on to demand they give up 'collective bargaining' a separate issue...an abstract issue that requires more detailed study...The Unions resist this bum's rush..!

Enough of the Koch government junk.  The only reason you even know Koch is because of a little weasel prank call.  What do you think the unions are saying to the donkey's in Illinois.   The union money is the only reason they left in the first place, they know they will stand to loose hundreds of millions of dollars from unions, money that should have gone into your pension fund by the way!!!!

[Buckskin]

After giving tax cuts and shifting costs to state workers, why is the Koch government adamant on killing collective bargaining...when they got what they wanted economically??.

Because the unions are toxic to the well being of the state/country.  And they didn't offer those cuts until the unions realized that their nuts were about to be cut off.  The unions never bargain in good faith, so the state is better off without them.  All of these workers that are forced to pay union dues and are conservatives are being robbed.

What is hidden in the Koch/Walker Bill...?

There is nothing hidden, it's all there for you to research.

What is the spin off on downgrading public workers relative to private sector workers..?

We'll see, but I see all positives.

What is the true effect of downgrading numbers and wages of public employees on the economic health of the greater private sector community in this time of near depression..??

We will get our spending under control and finally get rid of the extra weight the state has been carrying for decades.

What is the intention of the Koch/Walker government on downgrading jobs to temporary status from fulltime, and what is the effect of this on services and the greater community economically??

Won't have to pay insurance and pension.  See above comment on spending and extra weight....

....TM7
.

I grew up on a hog farm and one thing I can tell you is a hog only fights over a feeder when he knows whats in it and that is exactly why the public employees are up in arms.  They know the feeder (private jobs) on the other side of the pen isn't nearly as tasty...

[Buckskin]

It looks like the Wisconsin retirement system relies heavily on 457 wage deferrals, invested as a group for low costs. You can invest/deferr 100% of your salary up to $16,500 per year generally. This is far less beneficial then S.E.P. retirement systems that the private sector enjoys.

Please elaborate on the retirement system that is so superior in the private sector?  I can only defer $16,500 per year also in my 401K.I said SEP...not if you have a SEP, or a Top Hat 457...if you receive pay/benefits in stock or dividends you win again..taxed as 15% capital gains

Although, a major portion of public employees wages come from taxation...a very large portion comes from tuitions, licenses, fines, sale of power and resources, rentals and many more revenue sources from the state.

All of which are elevated to to act as another form of taxation. Yep cost money, but optional...do yopu want to dismantle the entire State system..?

People working for the State also pay taxes...a kick back to the state actually...so they are also bound to the the governmental system as well.

Take out of one pocket and put it in another.The state workers are bonded to the system just like you...that's the point.

Contrary to common opinion the State IS the biggest supporter and subsidizer of private industry in the State. This is because they educate the children that will be useful workers, provide and maintain roads for workers to get to their industry jobs, provide and regulate power grids and water sources, secure right of ways for utilities and roads, oversee any number of conflicting and environmnetal issues which impinge on the general public and private industry; provide for public safety and so on and so forth.

We can do this same function better for less cost.  For instance, how about letting schools get their insurance from somewhere other than the teachers union??? That would save millions right there, but no the union won't stand for that...Not necessarily...I don't know where Wis teachers get their HC insurance..I think state.

In fact, as time goes on it seems the private corpo sector benefits more and more from the general State system and the citizen/public less and less...the system has become skewed. This is most evident with the Koch government in Wisconsin...**First Walker gives a huge corpo tax cut, but then announces a huge budget issue..what's up with that? Then he blames it on workers who are the biggest subsidizers of corporations in the first place..!! The workers get their noses rubbed in this, as represented by Unions, but concede and give back wages to maintain their benefits...so they're taking less. BUT this is not enough for the Koch governmnet...they go on to demand they give up 'collective bargaining' a separate issue...an abstract issue that requires more detailed study...The Unions resist this bum's rush..!

Enough of the Koch government junk.  The only reason you even know Koch is because of a little weasel prank call.  What do you think the unions are saying to the donkey's in Illinois.   The union money is the only reason they left in the first place, they know they will stand to loose hundreds of millions of dollars from unions, money that should have gone into your pension fund by the way!!!!WRONG...I've know of Koch Bros for a long time and how they bought the T-Party...without a doubt Walker is a Koch Gov lieutinent...Koch's have alot of holdings in Wisonsin...Cui bono??...the Koch's.

Take a look at the top of this list and tell me who owns who...
http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php



...TM7

[Buckskin]

Please elaborate on the retirement system that is so superior in the private sector?  I can only defer $16,500 per year also in my 401K.I said SEP...not if you have a SEP, or a Top Hat 457...if you receive pay/benefits in stock or dividends you win again..taxed as 15% capital gains

How many private employees even know what a SEP or Top Hat is much less invested in one. I didn't

Although, a major portion of public employees wages come from taxation...a very large portion comes from tuitions, licenses, fines, sale of power and resources, rentals and many more revenue sources from the state.

All of which are elevated to to act as another form of taxation. Yep cost money, but optional...do yopu want to dismantle the entire State system..?
I didn't know fees were optional, they are just added on to my property tax.  Guess next year I will just deduct those...
People working for the State also pay taxes...a kick back to the state actually...so they are also bound to the the governmental system as well.

Take out of one pocket and put it in another.The state workers are bonded to the system just like you...that's the point.  Only difference the state workers don't seem to care about the deficit, and don't seem to have any answers of their own, just protecting their slop.

We can do this same function better for less cost.  For instance, how about letting schools get their insurance from somewhere other than the teachers union??? That would save millions right there, but no the union won't stand for that...Not necessairily...I don't know where Wis teachers get their HC insurance..I think state. Well I do, the union is self-insured and make up their own rates, do you think they are competitive in the market???

[...TM7[/color]

[/quote]
[/quote]

[Cabin4]

My dad worked for the public for 28 years.  He never paid 1 cent into insurance or his retirement to his employer.  His employer took care of all his medical expenses.  He retired at 63.  He died 10 years ago at 78.  My mom is now 87. Because of my dad's work,  she still gets a survivor benefit of $1,200/mo.  She also gets Medicare suppliment without cost to her that pays everything Medicare doesn't pay. Are you saying my parents shouldn't have received these benefits which the public pays for?

No. What workers have been promised should be kept. The issue thats being addressed in WI are not those people who have retired and have planned thier retirement around the proimises of the plan. What being addressed are those that are not in retirement. They are fair game for a reduction in pay, greater contribution to their pensions, ect. Just like the rest of us.

[Cabin4]

Does anyone beleive it time for Walker to compromise with the Union?

[carbineman]

TM7 wrote <<<<<What is hidden in the Koch/Walker Bill...?

What is the spin off on downgrading public workers relative to private sector workers..?

What is the true effect of downgrading numbers and wages of public employees on the economic health of the greater private sector community in this time of near depression..??

What is the intention of the Koch/Walker governmnet on downgrading jobs to temporary status from fulltime, and what is the effect of this on services and the greater community economically??


....TM7>>>End of quoted text.

These are all hypothetical questions and need to be rephrased for one to be able to answer with any clarification

[Buckskin]

I negelected to say what my father did as a public servant.  He was a chief petty officier in the US Navy.  He could even go to a Vet hospital and get free care!  That was part of his contract.  He got to fly for free and got to travel around the world for work.  He even got to visit Cuba for 2 weeks in January and was paid extra for flight time!  He could have steak and eggs for breakfast for free too!  It was all paid by the taxpayer.  Wisconsin public employees don't have any of these job perks.

Are we saying retired military benefits should be cut too?   

This reminds me of my sister-in-law again.  Her mother worked for the city of Madison and got a pension (not sure what she did), she passed away first, those benefits when to her husband (which is fine) he passed away and now my sister-in-law gets those benefits.  Truely insane...  She never paid a penny into that pension and it's passed on like property, which it is, tax-payer property!

[Buckskin]

Does anyone beleive it time for Walker to compromise with the Union?

NO!

[Buckskin]

TM7 wrote <<<<<What is hidden in the Koch/Walker Bill...?

What is the spin off on downgrading public workers relative to private sector workers..?

What is the true effect of downgrading numbers and wages of public employees on the economic health of the greater private sector community in this time of near depression..??

What is the intention of the Koch/Walker governmnet on downgrading jobs to temporary status from fulltime, and what is the effect of this on services and the greater community economically??


....TM7>>>End of quoted text.

These are all hypothetical questions and need to be rephrased for one to be able to answer with any clarification

LOL!!!!

[Cabin4]

TM,
Can we modify your 1 question into 2 questions:

1.Next question...with a BS or a BA what is the staring salary, pension & benefits for a Wisconsin public school teacher...?

2.Next question...with a BS or a BA what is the staring salary, pension & benefits  for a Wisconsin teacher in the private sector...?

Now this would make sense.

[Buckskin]

We can do this same function better for less cost.  For instance, how about letting schools get their insurance from somewhere other than the teachers union??? That would save millions right there, but no the union won't stand for that...Not necessairily...I don't know where Wis teachers get their HC insurance..I think state. Well I do, the union is self-insured and make up their own rates, do you think they are competitive in the market???

Looks like your wrong.....AGAIN....I assume teachers are in this__ look here at state website:

http://etf.wi.gov/members/benefits_state_health%20.htm

Next question...with a BS or a BA what is the staring salary for a Wisconsin teacher...?

...TM7
.

Ahhh, no I'm not AGAIN.  Teachers are not in that, but nice try...

http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2011/02/wisconsin_teach.php

your next question... Too high...

[Buckskin]

Are we saying retired military benefits should be cut too?   

I'm sure most of those marching around the capital would be more than happy to do just that....

[scootrd]

Does anyone beleive it time for Walker to compromise with the Union?

Yes ..here's a good compromise , Accept the fiscal concessions already agreed to by the unions, Tax corps in state appropriately, get rid of the no-bid clause for selling off Wisconsin assets to your buddies and leave collective bargaining alone.

Pick up the phone and call your Koch dealer and tell him you tried Boss.
Then Pass the budget and move on.

And as a side note for another possible thread (why are we as tax payers still giving subsidies to big oil companies , over 40 Billion ). These cats pulled in trillions last year and are the most profitable companies in the world. They do not need our additional Tax dollars.

Oh wait I get it , that's why we go after waitresses unclaimed Tips.

[Buckskin]

Scoot,

I assume you are referring to the power plants Walker wants to sell.  That is brilliant of Walker!  Sell aging power plants that are due for 10's of millions of upgrades and maintenance, get them off the books, get red of the costs, put money from sale against the deficit that your buddy Doyle brought down on Wisconsin.

And I would very much prefer that he get rid of the one sided collective bargaining so local communities can cut their own deal and not be hamstrung by the unions.

And I have a compromise for the oil issue.  Let us go after our own oil/gas and cut them off of subsidies.

[scootrd]

Scoot,

I assume you are referring to the power plants Walker wants to sell.  That is brilliant of Walker!  Sell aging power plants that are due for 10's of millions of upgrades and maintenance, get them off the books, get red of the costs, put money from sale against the deficit that your buddy Doyle brought down on Wisconsin.

And I would very much prefer that he get rid of the one sided collective bargaining so local communities can cut their own deal and not be hamstrung by the unions.

And I have a compromise for the oil issue.  Let us go after our own oil/gas and cut them off of subsidies.

Dont have a problem with him selling them it;s probably the right thing to do, I Have a problem with them going out the door no bid. 
(course he learned that that little bunch of BS nonsense from Halliburton and Cheney in the ME)

[Cabin4]

Does anyone beleive it time for Walker to compromise with the Union?

Yes ..here's a good compromise , Accept the fiscal concessions already agreed to by the unions, Tax corps in state appropriately, get rid of the no-bid clause for selling off Wisconsin assets to your buddies and leave collective bargaining alone.

Pick up the phone and call your Koch dealer and tell him you tried Boss.
Then Pass the budget and move on.

And as a side note for another possible thread (why are we as tax payers still giving subsidies to big oil companies , over 40 Billion ). These cats pulled in trillions last year and are the most profitable companies in the world. They do not need our additional Tax dollars.

Oh wait I get it , that's why we go after waitresses unclaimed Tips.

So I say NO. Here's why. Have the politicians ever negotiated with the Unions in the long term best interest of the tax payers: NO. Did Obama and the democrates negotiate with the republicans on the HC bill: NO

So why should Walker give into any Union demands in this negotiation? He shoudld not. He was elected by the People to fix this $3 trillion dollar issue. Federal employees do not have collective barganing and they pay more for the benefits, so why should Wisconsin state workrs get such a sweat deal on the back of the tax payers?

[ironglow]

  No negotiations, Obama set the example with the health care bill and his attempt to nullify congress with his outrageous appointment of dozens of "Czars".
  Remember when he tried to humiliate McCain by saying " elections mean things"...and so they did..in 2010...

[beerbelly]

Does anyone beleive it time for Walker to compromise with the Union

No!

[Cabin4]

Thats right. The tax payers won the election. Elections have consequnces and the president says. Its time for the public sector unions to shut up and get out of the way. You lost the election and now your going to lose some pay. Too bad. Your now members of the real world club.

[billy_56081]

Beerbelly the answer is NO.

The union parasites have been pumping money into the DNC parasites election funds for years. That is why our country is broke. Along with this I would like to see a 20% cut in ALL government pay and benefits. 

[scootrd]

Does anyone beleive it time for Walker to compromise with the Union?

Yes ..here's a good compromise , Accept the fiscal concessions already agreed to by the unions, Tax corps in state appropriately, get rid of the no-bid clause for selling off Wisconsin assets to your buddies and leave collective bargaining alone.

Pick up the phone and call your Koch dealer and tell him you tried Boss.
Then Pass the budget and move on.

And as a side note for another possible thread (why are we as tax payers still giving subsidies to big oil companies , over 40 Billion ). These cats pulled in trillions last year and are the most profitable companies in the world. They do not need our additional Tax dollars.

Oh wait I get it , that's why we go after waitresses unclaimed Tips.

So I say NO. Here's why...........He was elected by the People

and the majority of the people have spoken and want him to back off the collective bargaining issue says latest polling.