Democratic senators bail ship

[scootrd]

And the reason DNC is pouring millions into recall elections for senators who did nothing but do what they were elected to do. 

They were elected to support the constituents from each of their districts.

The dems did what they were suppose to do by listening to the majority of their constituents in their districts.
The republicans may or may not have depending on the demographics of each of their districts.

On thing that is clear is the governor is to govern for all the peoples. With the majority of Wisconsinites apposed to eliminating collective bargaining he did not do this.

Additionally I find it amusing , the very first thing the republican senators did after the vote was to attend a huge lobbyist fundraiser. (it's public record look it up).

This is the haves and the have mores against the middle class make no mistake the lines have been clearly drawn. All that's left is for each of use to determine what side  of the line to stand on. 

The recalls should determine who did what the majority of their districts wanted.

[scootrd]

Eliminating collective barganing is in the best interest of the tax payers and the budget process. You can spin all you want on this but anytime you reduce leverage of one party in the negotitaiton process, the advantage of that goes to the other party. In this case that other party is the state which is really the tax payer.

We will need to disagree agreeably.

Eliminating collective bargaining is nothing but class warfare between big corps and those that have and the middle class that they continuously wish to shrink. Welcome back to the new age of the working poor.  And in this case it is not the tax payer , it's the big corps and the elite that win.

[Buckskin]

Hmmmm, as I stated earlier. Jimmy Carter got rid of collective bargaining on the Federal level decades ago.  They seem to be doing just fine.  And the article I posted yesterday showed federal jobs pay better than the same job in the private sector.

Don't get you panties in a bundle, in one year all of this will beforgotten (aside from the bitter 7%) and the state will be on the mend.  Walkers numbers will be back to election time or better.

By the way, DNC money is now estimate at $30 million into the state for recalls.  Where do you think that cash came from?  Who owns who.

Recalls for senators who are just doing their jobs, what they believe in, even after death threats from the union punks.  Trust me they were listening to the people who got them there, the voting public not big business as you infer.

[Cabin4]

Eliminating collective barganing is in the best interest of the tax payers and the budget process. You can spin all you want on this but anytime you reduce leverage of one party in the negotitaiton process, the advantage of that goes to the other party. In this case that other party is the state which is really the tax payer.

We will need to disagree agreeably.

Eliminating collective bargaining is nothing but class warfare between big corps and those that have and the middle class that they continuously wish to shrink. Welcome back to the new age of the working poor.  And in this case it is not the tax payer , it's the big corps and the elite that win.

Yes we are.

Federal employees do not have collective bargaining and they contribute more for their benefits than the state union workers in Wisconsin.  So, this is also about fairness. Why should one government employee group have so much more leverage than another? How is that fair? Why should any group have collective bargaining rights over the tax payers?

You guys never answer these fundamental issues of fairness even when faced with the financial abyss right in front of you. The ship is heading for the rocks and the state union supporters are willing to drive it straight in like a suicide mission. The tax payers are fed up! Don’t you get it? We are tired of the looming disasters for this country and facts that state union employees are paid so much more in the competitive compensation analysis. The state union workers just seem to be motivated by pure self interest. In addition, why should a union worker be forced to have a payroll deduction on union dues? What the heck is that all about? It’s the workers money, not the unions?

[jimster]

"collective bargaining"

Think about it for a minute.  What is the only thing collective bargaining could possibly lead too?  They come to the table to bargin, there is nothing more you can give them, you can't even let them stay the same as they are, so the answer is no.  What do the unions do? They walk off the job.  What sense does it make to give public employees that work for ME...the option to always get something...or else?  Then on top of it, pump eveyone's money, both private taxes and union dies, into political parties?  It's like they are going to do some money laudering, or else you'll be sorry. 

Why give anyone that works for us those options?  The only thing they will do is break the bank, the unions don't care about the people they represent, I think a lot of those public employees want a choice...right to work?  Ask them.  Some are supporting the gov. in Wisconsin, they are wanting a choice and their union dues in their checks.  The real deal is, if the unions go down, the dems go down with them, the union bosses don't give a rip about one kid or one teacher.  Neither do the dems that hold elected office.  It's about power.   

[Cabin4]

Very well said and a bulls eye!

[Buckskin]

Well I'm off to Lake of the Woods to fish walleyes and gator pike.  It will be nice to get away from all of it for a while.  And will be interesting to see what all becomes of this.  I know Cabin, Ironglow, billy and others will fend off you whacky liberals while I'm out!

[ironglow]

Been is St Paul watchin' yer kids get their butts kicked, Billy?

  ? ?

[billy_56081]

Been is St Paul watchin' yer kids get their butts kicked, Billy?

  ? ?

I'm thinking either weed or alcohol.

[magooch]

The way I understand it, the unions have not been eliminated.  They still have the ability to bargain for wages and possibly other things, but not pensions and maybe some health care issues.  The state will no longer automatically collect union dues for the union.  Big deal.

Wisconsin is right to restrict the bargaining of benefits that will be impossible to afford over the long haul.  In the end, I see this as a win/win situtation for the state of Wisconsin and the state employees.  What good does it do the employees to have a fat pension benefit if later on the the state simply can't afford it and has to renig on it?  Deferred remunerations in the form of promised pensions are always iffy at best.  State governments are always tempted to let pension fund liabilites slide with the promise of catching up when times are better.  I've always thought that all compensation should be current and that includes contributions to pension plans.  The pension plans should be administered by a third party.  No system is perfect, but I've seen what happens when a company goes out of business, or gets sold.

I was very lucky to have worked for a company that had a very healthy pension fund, but these days, nothing is guaranteed forever.

[scootrd]

Magooch , I have2 teachers in my family needless to say it gets heated around the dinner table . while I agree that EVERYONE should contribute more towards their Pensions and Especially HC , Understand the Pension $$ are deferred monies . As in as in Pre-Tax and it is part of their salary each elects to defer a portion for retirement. No different  than private sector. If you work for a company and you are paid 100.00 a month and you choose to defer a portion of YOUR salary into a pension plan. So what this really amounted too was a pay cut for Public sector employees ...ok,  I'm fine with that.

What I disagree with  -
is taking away labors ability to collective bargain. This is just class warfare , Big corps against Labor, White collar against Blue collar.  Republican fat cat campaign contributors against Dem Fat cat Labor Union contributors and the little guy once again is being caught in the squeeze.  Make no mistake the lines have been drawn in America , and the middle class (whats left of it) is tired of being squeezed and asked to shoulder the burden of repairing this ecomomy they did not create, while these wall streeters walk away Scott free pun intended, and large private corps keep receiving huge tax breaks either Fed or state and still outsource jobs overseas, without reinvesting in America.

Someone explain to me why if we are so serious about cutting spending, Our Republican legislators just voted to Keep sending 40 billion $$ worth of incentives (our tax $$)  to the largest oil companies??. The oil companies have already stated they don't even need the $$ . as they were the most profitable companies last year.  I'll tell ya why  -  cause big business bought and paid for politicians on the gravy train want to keep the big business campaign contributions flowing.  Do you know what the VERY FIRST thing the Wisconsin senators did after they voted the Bill . They went to a huge Lobbyist party . That's right , a lobbyist party.

This is a Bigger American fight than "state budgets" , all us little guys are just caught in the fray.  and if Buckskin want to label me a Liberal whatever because of it so be it , but this is not the  Republican Party I voted for all my life , It has since been hijacked by Far right nut jobs and there is no place for me in the ranks anymore as Both parties have moved so far away from the center there is no balance anymore.

When the MAJORITY of constituents tell you they do not want something to happen and you vote in your best interests not the peoples  then it's time for a changing of the guard.

I'll stand with Labor in this fight - JMHO.
Peace

[billy_56081]

What we have here is a basic understanding that the liberals cannot comprehend. The taxes imposed on business are passed on to the consumers. DUHHHH!!!!!

For such an educated and enlightened bunch of folks as these liberal parasites are, they sure are dumb. As Ron White said, "you can't fix stupid".

[scootrd]

What we have here is a basic understanding that the liberals cannot comprehend. The taxes imposed on business are passed on to the consumers. DUHHHH!!!!!

For such an educated and enlightened bunch of folks as these liberal parasites are, they sure are dumb. As Ron White said, "you can't fix stupid".

Why you continuously feel you need to lower yourself to personal attacks is what I can't comprehend . You bring absolutely no intelligent  contributions to the debate.  Just the same mantra over and over again.  Try debating the facts and lets refrain and leave the personal attacks on the curb. Perhaps then people would listen more to your point of views.

And Factional speaking. taxes imposed on business is how our Founding Fathers envisioned and wanted a tax system to work. It wasn't until the 16th amendment was passed (or there about) that personal income was taxed. If you need the specifics I will be happy to provide.  The reasoning behind this was the company that could make the best cost effective widget would survive and be purchased by the consumer and the company woud recoup the tax through sales.


He who screams the loudest is only heard for so long and then is just dismissed. which is a shame because maybe your points should be discussed however folks grow weary of the rhetoric that comes along with them .

I do love Ron White , and he is  right on that point "you can't fix stupid".

[billy_56081]

I guess I didn't not think liberal parasite was one particular person. I am speaking of that whole group of lice.

[scootrd]

What we have here is a basic understanding that the liberals cannot comprehend. The taxes imposed on business are passed on to the consumers. DUHHHH!!!!!
For such an educated and enlightened bunch of folks as these liberal parasites are, they sure are dumb. As Ron White said, "you can't fix stupid".

I guess I didn't not think liberal parasite was one particular person. I am speaking of that whole group of lice.

To personally attack a group of anybody that has an opinion different than your position solves nothing. Debating the facts and sharing information is just more productive, because quite often what happens is a possible valid point you are trying to share gets lost in the noise.

I think one of the major problems in America right now is there is no more civil discourse. Just a bunch of name calling on both sides.

Do a quick study on history of Taxes in America , and you will find it was Corps that were suppose to taxed on their goods and services. Not individuals. Giving tax breaks to large corps is so far removed from what was our founders envisioned.(especially when they don't reinvest in America).

What we are seeing now in America is class warfare nothing more and nothing less.

I'll stand with Labor thanks.


"We the Corporations of the United federation of Mobil GE gas power and light Bank of America, in Order to form a more perfect Union of revenue and profit, establish our justice over all others, insure domestic Tranquility for ourselves alone, provide for our own selfish gains, promote the general Welfare of our own needs above those of the peoples, and secure the Blessings of Wallstreet to ourselves and our top 1% , do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United corporations of Mobil GE gas power and light Bank of America.

Lets just rewrite it and be done with it.

[ironglow]

  The parasites are welcome to their OPINIONS; but when it starts costing the rest of us much money, our kids a decent education and many of us a job (because the entity we work for gets taxed out of country), That's when their "opinions" are getting to expensive for the rest of us to bear.
   Scoot;
  You seem to have a weird picture of the history of US taxes..
  The first taxes levied were not on "corps" per se..  The first tax levied was on whiskey, which brought on the "Whiskey rebellion".  None of the big "corps" were in the whiskey business then, the whiskey producer being mainly small farmers from western Pennsylvania.     http://www.taxworld.org/History/TaxHistory.htm

  Surely, our forefathers never envisioned an America where many must work for the state a huge proprtion of the year before even starting to earn their own money.  Scroll down the provided chart to find what day you stop working for govt and start working for you and your family..
    http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxfreedomday/
     

[billy_56081]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasite

[Cabin4]

Yes, he’s willing to scream everyone out of existence except the state union workers. The tax payers, business and people in general can all go to hell. But what he fails to understand is that it’s all connected. Without a growing business base, growing private sector income, a balanced state budget and overall growth, there is no one to pay the taxes so the state can employ workers. Until you state union supporters understand that the it is a business, you'll always fail to understand how it works and you be relegated to endless frustration.

Face it, you guys could really care less about the entire value chain of events. That’s exactly what got us into this mess and exactly why businesses that fail, comprehend. It’s all about your wallet today, no thought for the future viability of your one sided selfish position.

[Cabin4]

TM, answer the real question: WHY? Get to the root cause for once.

[billy_56081]

Its no different than getting rid of the cable so we can afford electricity. There is a financial crisis, cuts have to be made to our wants so we can pay for our needs.

[Cabin4]

Mathamatics is a farse. A business does not have to operate with a profit. Its just suppose to employ people, pay them and pay tax so state union workers can get a raise, unreasonable benefits and pension. If private business would just knock off the math stuff, it can operate like the state and all this would just go away.

[ironglow]

IG:

from your link:


"During the 1930's federal individual income taxes were never more than 1.4 percent of GNP. Corporate taxes were never more than 1.6 percent of GNP. In 1990 those same taxes as a percent of GNP were 8.77 and 1.99 respectively.3

So from the 1930's to the 1990's ,tax burden on individuals went up 6.5 times, but on Corps they went up 0.3 times.   Nope...! no 'tax shift' there, while corp taxes remained static essentially.....no sir....
People better wake up to this swindle....

...TM7

    Now TM;
  I KNOW you know better than that... but there are a surprising number who still "just don't get it".    If a corporation; let's say Kellogg's cereal has their taxes raised by another 6% !
   DUH !   Then what happens ?  Well, naturally that is folded into the cost of production for the product...and the individual who has already had his/her taxes raised far beyond where they should be...gets it in the neck again when they buy breakfast cereal for little Jimmy or Janey...

   The politicians shouldn't be even considering how they can tax ANYBODY any more than than they already are !!!  Wisconsin, along with many other states are already BROKE...and overspending did it !  Now their duty is to spend as minimum as possible and look diligently for further cuts.  The people are being taxed to death and the corporations are being taxed out of the country...or at least out of the "blue" states.
   That's the reward we get for having elected to office, people who have never run a successful business, met a payroll or dealt with a product in a highly competitive market !
  It's what we get when the people elect a man to the presidency who spent his formative years in a foreign nation, developing his values in a foreign culture.  It's what we get when the people elect a man who has never had to work hard for a living and spent his adult years being a "community activist"...who then represents a political party which doesn't care how we get sold out to foreign interests...as long as they can grab POWER ..even if only for a season.

   Your post explains the situation well..there is no reason  individuals should have had their taxes raised 6.5 times and no reason Corporations should pay ANY corporate taxes, since those taxes will only be passed on to the individual anyway.
   Let's get rid of the old myth about "corporate taxes".  Some folks seem to think that those who make money from corporations don't pay taxes....that is a stupid notion.  Even if a corporation is not taxed a dime, any profits to any shareholder is subject to individual taxes and if a shareholder makes enough, he/she could pay up to 50% in taxes...
  How would you like to pay 50% in taxes ?  If you did, you may feel differently about wanting to gouge folks more !

[Cabin4]

TM, answer the real question: WHY? Get to the root cause for once.

He will never answer the question.

[jimster]

What I disagree with  -
is taking away labors ability to collective bargain. This is just class warfare , Big corps against Labor, White collar against Blue collar.

I do not think this public employee thing, who works for me the tax payer, is about corps against labor.  That's what the people protesting make it sound like, that's what msnbc makes it sound like.  But I am not a big corporation, I'm just a tax payer.  I do not want the people that I pay to be able to have collective bargin.  Doesn't make sense.  If I run out of money, they can force more out of me...that's what collective bargaining is to me. It's not white collar against blue collar either...it's me against the unions, they should not be able to make anyone pay union dues at all, that doesn't even sound American to me, it's sounds wrong.

I think this is private independent people vs. Democrats and their unions, we actually like teachers. 

If a private place of business like X-GM wants to play the union thug game, that does not affect me so directly...unless something really weird happens like the government takes it over and makes me pay that union too.     

[scootrd]

IG:

from your link:


"During the 1930's federal individual income taxes were never more than 1.4 percent of GNP. Corporate taxes were never more than 1.6 percent of GNP. In 1990 those same taxes as a percent of GNP were 8.77 and 1.99 respectively.3

So from the 1930's to the 1990's ,tax burden on individuals went up 6.5 times, but on Corps they went up 0.3 times.   Nope...! no 'tax shift' there, while corp taxes remained static essentially.....no sir....
People better wake up to this swindle....

...TM7

My point exactly. Thanks TM for bringing it home more succinctly.

But hey walkers got it all figured out ..lets just give them another 137 mil in breaks so they can continue to invest overseas using cheap labor. and then Walker can claim this huge budget crisis that we must immediately balance on the backs of labor. Yep that helps us all. What a racket.  Some will never wake up and smell the coffee.

So IG , do you see anything wrong with Bank of America paying zero in taxes and accepting corporate bailout with our tax monies? Or GE paying zero in taxes and not re-investing in America but outsourcing overseas?
 

[Cabin4]

IG:

from your link:


"During the 1930's federal individual income taxes were never more than 1.4 percent of GNP. Corporate taxes were never more than 1.6 percent of GNP. In 1990 those same taxes as a percent of GNP were 8.77 and 1.99 respectively.3

So from the 1930's to the 1990's ,tax burden on individuals went up 6.5 times, but on Corps they went up 0.3 times.   Nope...! no 'tax shift' there, while corp taxes remained static essentially.....no sir....
People better wake up to this swindle....

...TM7

My point exactly. Thanks TM for bringing it home more succinctly.

Yes, very succinctly. And we still have the highest overall business tax rate in the world. The jobs keep leaving because of an unfriendly tax and regulatory environment and all you big government tax & spend liberals think the solution is more of the same.

TM & Scoot, you two will never, never get it. You love to compare apples and oranges and you think your pulling something over on us. You never answer any reall root cause issues. Its all about the state union worker. As if the world revolves around them.

[scootrd]

IG:

from your link:


"During the 1930's federal individual income taxes were never more than 1.4 percent of GNP. Corporate taxes were never more than 1.6 percent of GNP. In 1990 those same taxes as a percent of GNP were 8.77 and 1.99 respectively.3

So from the 1930's to the 1990's ,tax burden on individuals went up 6.5 times, but on Corps they went up 0.3 times.   Nope...! no 'tax shift' there, while corp taxes remained static essentially.....no sir....
People better wake up to this swindle....

...TM7

My point exactly. Thanks TM for bringing it home more succinctly.

Yes, very succinctly. And we still have the highest overall business tax rate in the world. The jobs keep leaving because of an unfriendly tax and regulatory environment and all you big government tax & spend liberals think the solution is more of the same.

TM & Scoot, you two will never, never get it. You love to compare apples and oranges and you think your pulling something over on us. You never answer any reall root cause issues. Its all about the state union worker. As if the world revolves around them.

I don't care how much of a tax break you keep giving them ...the jobs are not coming back. The profits remain overseas.
How many times you gonna get punched in the face before you strike back. The large Corps are laughing all the way to the bank. On behalf of corp x ..thanks for the tax break ...too bad we cant invest n your state though and hire american workers , it's just not profitable , but thanks again for the break Mr walker. What a puppet.

and C4 collective bargaining has nothing to do with state union workers and balancing budgets.. they are just caught up in the Fray. It has everything to do with union busting and supreme court 5-4 decisions regarding campaign contributions allowed to be made by big Corps so they can buy politicians like Walker and our legislators in DC.

Can't wait for the recall.

[billy_56081]

If these parasites put as much effort into working as they do protesting they would be rich.

And scoot, as I told you this would pass in Wisconsin, also there will be no recall elections except for one of the deserters. BTW my bro in law voted to smash the union parasites in Ohio.

[Cabin4]

Scoot,
I guess since collective barganing has no favorable impact on Union worker compensation, they should have no problem giving it up. Right?

[scootrd]

Scoot,
I guess sine collective barganing has so no impact on thier pay, you should not problem giving it up. Right!

pointless , now your just being coy as you understand the larger initiative under way within the Big Bisuness  and Republican 
Partnership heading into 2012.

Call Walker Napoleon and call this his Waterloo,For the first time in a long time, blue-collar Republicans — once known as Reagan Democrats — have been encouraged to remember what they think is wrong with conservative ideology. Working-class voters, including many Republicans, want no part of Walker's war.

"...politicians appreciate a phraseology that flatters the masses and offers an excellent opportunity
not only for evading responsibility but also for crushing opponents in the name of the people."
Joseph A. Schumpeter