Democratic senators bail ship

[Cabin4]

Answer the question Scoot. You said it has nothing to do with balancing the state budget. If that is a fact, then it must have no favorable impact on compensation to the worker. So giving it up should not be an issue. Right?

[billy_56081]

Scoot,
I guess sine collective barganing has so no impact on thier pay, you should not problem giving it up. Right!

pointless , now your just being coy as you understand the larger initiative under way within the Big Bisuness  and Republican 
Partnership heading into 2012.

Call Walker Napoleon and call this his Waterloo,For the first time in a long time, blue-collar Republicans — once known as Reagan Democrats — have been encouraged to remember what they think is wrong with conservative ideology. Working-class voters, including many Republicans, want no part of Walker's war.

"...politicians appreciate a phraseology that flatters the masses and offers an excellent opportunity
not only for evading responsibility but also for crushing opponents in the name of the people."
Joseph A. Schumpeter

I bet it aint Walkers Waterloo.

[ironglow]

  Scoot's lament;
      "and C4 collective bargaining has nothing to do with state union workers and balancing budgets.. they are just caught up in the Fray. It has everything to do with union busting and supreme court 5-4 decisions regarding campaign contributions allowed to be made by big Corps so they can buy politicians like Walker and our legislators in DC. "


   My reply;
  You say "union busting" as if it is a dirty word !  I see no problem with the effort,; something like "bronc busting"..when the broncs on the ranch eat lots of hay and aren't worth much./..break up the barn (e.g. the capitol building)..it's time they were broken ..and made to be useful..
  Your lament about the SCOTUS allowing corps to "buy" politicians..the SCOTUS is just being "fair and balanced" and righting the wrongs of the McCain-Feingold bill which only allowed the unions to "buy" politicians.
   
  BTW:  One of those "corps' you were in favor of silencing during the elections..was the NRA..
         Great play; ... Shakespeare !

  Scoot;
     Your adoration for Joe scumpeter is well founded, he also thought socialism should replace capitalism...

[carbineman]

As one who has a dog in this fight, I'll say simply that for me and me only, I don't want to pay one more cent in taxes to this "excessive progressive" state.

As one who has a sister just recently retired from teaching I have a knowledge of how these government unionized employees operate and how WEAC operates. They are now assisting her in finding a different state where she can retire in comfortably. Wisconsin is in the middle to lower end of the pack on almost every category. It's all on the WEAC website.

So if businesses relocate out of this tax hell state it is no surprise to me as to why WEAC also "relocates" it constituents out of here also. If not for our 10 grandchildren and their parents I'd be off like a new prom dress.

Scoot and TM, Again, these unionized government employees can go for all the gusto they can get and it's their unions job to do so for them. I for one just don't want to pay for it and the "so called rich" or rich aren't going to pay more(they didn't under the last very progressive goobernor either) so that leaves me the poor paying for the rich government unionized employees. So me the poor are being taken advantage of by the rich government unionized employees. What is so difficult to understand in that equation? But of course you two won't be able to answer that question or any other one that is asked for that matter.

[billy_56081]

Oh and scoot, our poll is still 80% in favor of Walker.

[scootrd]

  Scoot's lament;
      "and C4 collective bargaining has nothing to do with state union workers and balancing budgets.. they are just caught up in the Fray. It has everything to do with union busting and supreme court 5-4 decisions regarding campaign contributions allowed to be made by big Corps so they can buy politicians like Walker and our legislators in DC. "


   My reply;
  You say "union busting" as if it is a dirty word !  I see no problem with the effort,; something like "bronc busting"..when the broncs on the ranch eat lots of hay and aren't worth much./..break up the barn (e.g. the capitol building)..it's time they were broken ..and made to be useful..
  Your lament about the SCOTUS allowing corps to "buy" politicians..the SCOTUS is just being "fair and balanced" and righting the wrongs of the McCain-Feingold bill which only allowed the unions to "buy" politicians.
   
  BTW:  One of those "corps' you were in favor of silencing during the elections..was the NRA..
         Great play; ... Shakespeare !

  Scoot;
     Your adoration for Joe scumpeter is well founded, he also thought socialism should replace capitalism...

You mention the NRA like they are a holy grail . I support Gun Owners of America. I walked away from the NRA a looonnnggg time ago.  And because you see no problem with silencing Labor ..that is indeed why we are on opposite sides of the debate on this one.

And C4 -  your comment was ridiculous, because you are already aware Fitzgerald openly admitted the collective bargaining issue was never about Budgets , that's why they separated it from the fiscal elements of the original bill
(which by the way were conceeded by the unions) so if they just wanted to "balance their budget" theycould have done so weeks ago.

"If they flip the state senate which is obviously the goal with these recalls going on right now they can take control of the labor unions...If we win this battle, and the money is not there under the auspices of the unions, certainly what you're going to find is President Obama is going to have a much difficult, much more difficult time getting elected and winning the state of Wisconsin". - Fitzgerald

This is the only reason why they want to Bust the unions. to weaken 2012 contributions, not to balance any Budget. At least  they finally stopped the BS and called it for what it was and stopped blowing smoke up everyone's backside.

This is big business and their political cronies trying to stifle any Campaign contribution opposition heading into 2012.

[Cabin4]

Eliminating collective barganing was about bringing sanity back to the negotiation process. Next time, the union won't have as much leverage for greater pay or compensation. So it is about the budget process and helps support sanity in the future. Like it or not, it is an absolute fact and you know it. The union faught hard for collective barganing for a reason and you can't fool anyone to thinking that is was not about money. It was.

[scootrd]

Oh and scoot, our poll is still 80% in favor of Walker.

Yep and real world polls show Today show only 43% – view him favorably, and the share of people who view him unfavorably has jumped 18 points. Walker has lost significant ground with independents in the state, as Rasmussen also indicated earlier in the week.  A 57% majority disapproves of Walker’s performance, and 59% of independents have a negative view of the governor. 

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2011/03/poll_majorities_support_recall.html

Party spokesman Graeme Zielinski stated that Dems have already reached 15% of the signature thresholds in all eight targeted GOPers, and have even reached 26% in one unspecified district. Only 25% is needed.

[Cabin4]

Don;t worry about the polls. When the tax payers see that the financial disaster is being addressed, they will come around. Tax payers are not interested in living out the Greece scenario. The state union workers could care less. They would have thier contract and the state would have to pay them thier rediculous salaries and benefits while everyone else is homeless.

[scootrd]

Don;t worry about the polls. When the tax payers see that the financial disaster is being addressed, they will come around. Tax payers are not interested in living out the Greece scenario. The state union workers could care less. They would have thier contract and the state would have to pay them thier rediculous salaries and benefits while everyone else is homeless.

Not even an effective analogy. again more drive by media spin , I heard the same comment earlier on Radio.
If you don;t want to be Greece tell the Legislators in DC to stop giving our 40 billion in our tax dollars to the oil
companies as incentives they don't even want nor need. So much for campaigning on we learned our lesson
please vote us back in we will do right by the American people. So corrupt. 

[Cabin4]

Don;t worry about the polls. When the tax payers see that the financial disaster is being addressed, they will come around. Tax payers are not interested in living out the Greece scenario. The state union workers could care less. They would have thier contract and the state would have to pay them thier rediculous salaries and benefits while everyone else is homeless.

Not even an effective analogy. again more drive by media spin , I heard the same comment earlier on Radio.
If you don;t want to be Greece tell the Legislators in DC to stop giving our 40 billion in our tax dollars to the oil
companies as incentives they don't even want nor need. So much for campaigning on we learned our lesson
please vote us back in we will do right by the American people. So corrupt.

Washington is the same problem as Madison Scoot. Its just larger. You can crusify Washington all you want. No argument from me. But when you have someone in Madison who is doing what he said about addressing the budget issue, your comments seem off target. Walker is addressing the institutional issues of over paid workers. Like it or not. He is moving forward on what he said he was going to do and that is address reductions in spending and improving the environment to attract business. And sorry, but state workers do not create jobs or a business. They simply act as a drawback to improving the economy. They provide nothing to GDP, nothing. Its about time someone in Madison stuck up for the tax payers and real jobs.

[scootrd]

lets just look at the largest donors to political campaigns and where their contribution end up .
Conservative TOTAL 2010 contributions 190Million
Liberal TOTAL 2010 contributions 92.9 million

Now how many of the top 10 contributed to Repubicans  = 6
How many contributed to Dems = 3

Hmmm....Bust the unions and eliminate the top 3 contributors for Dem party.
Service Employees International Union
American Fedn of St/Cnty/Munic Employees
National Education Assn  (wow what a coincidence number 3 is the Teachers Union)

These guys are so transparent it's ridiculous. 

Group                                                       Total            View*    
US Chamber of Commerce                              $32,851,997    C                 
American Action Network                              $26,088,031    C                 
American Crossroads                                      $21,553,277    C          
Crossroads Grassroots Policy Strategies              $17,122,446    C                 
Service Employees International Union              $15,795,194    L            
American Fedn of St/Cnty/Munic Employees      $12,631,170    L                  
American Future Fund                                      $9,599,806    C                  
Americans for Job Security                              $8,991,209    C              
National Assn of Realtors                              $8,890,737    X (BI-PARTISAN)   *      
National Education Assn                              $8,746,556    L              
Club for Growth                                              $8,240,060    C          
National Rifle Assn                                      $8,116,087    C              
60 Plus Assn                                              $7,096,125    C                  
America's Families First Action Fund              $5,878,743    L 
League of Conservation Voters                      $5,496,070    L          
Americans for Tax Reform                              $4,140,044    C              
EMILY's List                                              $3,968,701    L          
AFL-CIO                                                      $3,790,641    L              
Commonsense Ten                                      $3,257,033    L                
VoteVets.org                                              $3,218,871    L

[Cabin4]

Your just mad becasue your guy lost. And your right it is transparent. Its right there in the available public record. Your post proves its transparent the source of money. So, who's hiding what?

[scootrd]

Your just mad becasue your guy lost. And your right it is transparent. Its right there in the available public record. Your post proves its transparent the source of money. So, who's hiding what?

Yep ..it sure is.. Look at that Chamber of Commerce , and Karl Roves 3 Pac's in the top 3 to equal over 97 million alone to buy Republican legislators.  and the unions 35 million to buy dems. So lets eliminate the 35million so Republicans have no competition and can stack the deck. Either way its disgusting. and it would be just as disgusting if the Dems were the largest contributors. This is big business buying democracy.


Welcome to the buying of our America Govt.

oh and the ever fearful AFL-CIO contributed just a paltry 3 million. wow Karl rove and his big corp buddies were still  worried. 

[ironglow]

lets just look at the largest donors to political campaigns and where their contribution end up .
Conservative TOTAL 2010 contributions 190Million
Liberal TOTAL 2010 contributions 92.9 million

Now how many of the top 10 contributed to Repubicans  = 6
How many contributed to Dems = 3

Hmmm....Bust the unions and eliminate the top 3 contributors for Dem party.
Service Employees International Union
American Fedn of St/Cnty/Munic Employees
National Education Assn  (wow what a coincidence number 3 is the Teachers Union)

These guys are so transparent it's ridiculous. 

Group                                                       Total            View*    
US Chamber of Commerce                              $32,851,997    C                 
American Action Network                              $26,088,031    C                 
American Crossroads                                      $21,553,277    C          
Crossroads Grassroots Policy Strategies              $17,122,446    C                 
Service Employees International Union              $15,795,194    L            
American Fedn of St/Cnty/Munic Employees      $12,631,170    L                  
American Future Fund                                      $9,599,806    C                  
Americans for Job Security                              $8,991,209    C              
National Assn of Realtors                              $8,890,737    X (BI-PARTISAN)   *      
National Education Assn                              $8,746,556    L              
Club for Growth                                              $8,240,060    C          
National Rifle Assn                                      $8,116,087    C              
60 Plus Assn                                              $7,096,125    C                  
America's Families First Action Fund              $5,878,743    L 
League of Conservation Voters                      $5,496,070    L          
Americans for Tax Reform                              $4,140,044    C              
EMILY's List                                              $3,968,701    L          
AFL-CIO                                                      $3,790,641    L              
Commonsense Ten                                      $3,257,033    L                
VoteVets.org                                              $3,218,871    L

   Scoot;
  I don't know where you got your information, but here's how the non-partisan OPEN SECRETS organization has tabulated the the "heavy hitters" in the top ten contributors.  One need not concentrate too hard to realize where the funds went since it is obvious by the name of their organization.  Only surprise wouild be Goldman-Sachs, who really backed Obama, but that is no surprise, since Obama's secy of treasury, Tim Geithner* treated Goldman so deliciously with the bank bailouts.
     
  So Scoot;  Where  did you get your non-partisan  "top ten" list ?

      http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/index.php



    * Tim Geithner...remember, he's the guy who didn't pay his taxes..but BHO said "that's OK " !

[ironglow]

Scoot says in post# 691;

   " If you don;t want to be Greece tell the Legislators in DC "

   


   Scoot;
   Is that how the unions feel about it ?....  "give us our desires or we tear the place down " ?

    That causes me to wonder;

1) Do you endorse the Wisconsin senstors who deserted their duties/posts and ran off and hid ?

2) do you endorse the damage done to the state capitol by the union thugs ?


     Then too, can we both thank the Tea Party for being good citizens and cleaning out the trash ?

[scootrd]

   Scoot;
  I don't know where you got your information, but here's how the non-partisan OPEN SECRETS organization has tabulated the the "heavy hitters" in the top ten contributors.  One need not concentrate too hard to realize where the funds went since it is obvious by the name of their organization.  Only surprise wouild be Goldman-Sachs, who really backed Obama, but that is no surprise, since Obama's secy of treasury, Tim Geithner* treated Goldman so deliciously with the bank bailouts.
     
  So Scoot;  Where  did you get your non-partisan  "top ten" list ?

      http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/index.php
 

Same exact place ...
2010 Outside Spending, by Groups.

Here's by outspending by viewpoint
http://www.opensecrets.org/outsidespending/summ.php?cycle=2010&disp=O&type=P&chrt=V

Feel free to use the filters and slice it anyway you want . The majority of contributors and by far the largest donors by a huge margin are big business for the Republican coffers.

Here's some graphs to help ya along
Total Liberal vs. Conservative Outside Spending, Excluding Party Committees

http://www.opensecrets.org/outsidespending/index.php

And as you said their non-partisan so you shouldn't have a problem with the data . And as you can plainly see I skewed nothing and reported accurately.

Its disgusting how many Big Business dollars are used to buy American Democracy. If They re-invested the dollars into creating Jobs, R&D etc.. instead of buying legislators there wouldn't be the economic problems we have today now would there.  Bust the unions , bust the opposition, buy the 2012 elections. pretty simple strategy, Wisconsin is nothing more than a microcosm with the Wisconsin workers caught up in the larger strategic effort. Collective bargaining has nothing to do with Budget balancing. and it's silly for the republicans not to think Blue collar america is so dumb they couldn't see through it.

"We the Corporations of the United federation of Mobil GE gas power and light Bank of America,

[billy_56081]

Scoot is using sources that are biased in his posts. This is the tactic of the liberal parasites, basically taking polls from a group that will give you favorable results. In my work I travel around quite a bit. as in our poll here I find Walker has more support than not. The liberal parasites are using lies and fear as the facts do not support them. There will be no recall elections.

[scootrd]

Scoot is using sources that are biased in his posts. This is the tactic of the liberal parasites, basically taking polls from a group that will give you favorable results. In my work I travel around quite a bit. as in our poll here I find Walker has more support than not. The liberal parasites are using lies and fear as the facts do not support them. There will be no recall elections.

Now how can they be biased when IG just said himself they were non -partisan ...
see that's the issue Billy when presented with the facts that your side agrees are concrete non-partisan data and having them staring you straight in the face you continue to argue from a position of unknowing or not wanting to .

Total Liberal vs. Conservative Outside Spending, Excluding Party Committees

http://www.opensecrets.org/outsidespending/index.php

Nuff said , folks like yourself just want to remain in the dark. That's your decision. Good luck.
and billy you traveling around as a one man poll taker is ridiculous nonsense nobody takes seriously when all the national polls are against Walker , for the recall , and against eliminating collective bargaining, and the numbers
keep growing against them with every poll. Your position is the minority. Just silliness on your part that amounts to Zip.

[scootrd]

NOW...I'LL TELL YOU THIS ...IF THE GLOBALIST BOLSHEVIK CORPS SUCCEED IN ZEROING ALL CORPO TAXES IN THE USA, SHIFTING ALL TAX BURDEN TO WORKERS....THEN UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD THEY EVER BE ALLOWED TO MAKE 1 CENT OF POLITICAL CONTRIBUTIONS. And in fact, if they are not paying taxes currently, which it appears 75% of corps are zeroing or minimizing taxes, political contributions should be restricted or proportional to taxes paid.

+1

[Cabin4]

Your just mad becasue your guy lost. And your right it is transparent. Its right there in the available public record. Your post proves its transparent the source of money. So, who's hiding what?

Yep ..it sure is.. Look at that Chamber of Commerce , and Karl Roves 3 Pac's in the top 3 to equal over 97 million alone to buy Republican legislators.  and the unions 35 million to buy dems. So lets eliminate the 35million so Republicans have no competition and can stack the deck. Either way its disgusting. and it would be just as disgusting if the Dems were the largest contributors. This is big business buying democracy.


Welcome to the buying of our America Govt.

oh and the ever fearful AFL-CIO contributed just a paltry 3 million. wow Karl rove and his big corp buddies were still  worried.

Did Sorus or SIEU contribute to his campaign? No. Those and the rest of communists and socialists contributed to the democrats. Very transparent. Your right and thanks for pointing that out.

[Cabin4]

Then change the federal tax code TM! In the meantime the states need to operate with a balanced budget. You make Walker out to be the president, congress and senate all wrapped up in one guy for the past 70 years. Get real.

[Cabin4]

They already have a P&L approach. It just runs in red becasue the states can get away with it by borrowing and taxing. Eventually it boils over when they can no longer borrow and no longer tax. In the business world, you cannot operate a P&L in the red for long. You get fired or your business folds or if its an internal sub-P&L the department gets disolved.

[ironglow]

Scoot;
   In your post #695 you complain about how much corporations have contributed to the McCain campaign..bewailing how "special interests had bought off democracy"...or some such lament.  First off, we have no DEMOCRACY..thank God and our national patriarchs !
   I hasten to remind you that ALL funds given to political parties (either one), whether PAC money, unions, environmental or private,  is "special interest" money, and in 2008, B Hussein Obama shattered all existing records as to the amount of special interest money he collected, and obviously he bought the election:
http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2008/presfin08.html          (read the first paragraph)

    When barely started into the campaign, B Hussein was so sure he would outraise Mccain fund wise,  that he refused govt matching funds, while McCain accepted them..

[Dixie Dude]

You know the big bad corporations who supported Obama.  GE, Apple, Microsoft, George Soros, Google, Starbucks.  MMMM.  New money.

Old money, maybe the oil companies and coal companies supported McCain. 

Most small to mid level corporations support Republicans. 

Extremely large multi-national ones support Democrats. 

[ironglow]

  Polls don't look too entgicing for the libbies right now !

  http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/obama_approval_index_history

[jimster]

Personally, I don't see much logic comparing corporations to state employees, or their unions.

I don't have a problem with corporations taking money straight out of MY pay check and sending it to the dem or rep party, cause that DON'T happen where I work. I do have a problem state unions not only doing this, but electing people to take my tax money (I am private) and funnel it back to their unions.  (see stim package)

Let's fix one thing at a time here...let's start with the unions and dem party and bust them both to begin with.

The State employees can just send their own money into the dem party if they want to, after they cash it....should be no problem there eh?  Any corporations that are private can send all their extra cash to the dem party as well, just like the reps.  (they all already do this now)

But why would anyone, no matter what party, want a union to grab their money and waste it on elections when they could use that money themselves?  I say all you need to do is give state employees the choice...without firing them...let the chips fall where they may, and whoever goes away, your probably better off in the long run because obviously the unions are  not offering anyone enough of anything to sustain their own existence without TAKING someones money.

Nobody in America should have money taken out of their paychecks in order to work, and they can call it what they want, but if there is no choice, it's got to be corrupt.  I don't think poiting out how the other party (reps) is corrupt justifies a damn thing.  Let's kill whatever we can kill right now, we can go after the corruption in the rep party next, heck they will probably kill themselves...they ain't too bright either.

[XD40SC]

Poll outcome many times depends on who's taking them and where the sample comes from. There is an old saying - figures don't lie, but liars figure. It's so true.

[Cabin4]

Only polls that matter are the ones on election day. That last one was Nov 21 when the voters of WI elected Walker and the rest of the legislature. They are trying to do the job at this point. And no, the criminal union leaders were not voted into office. So they will just have to take what they get. Just like the rest of us in the private sector. Welcome to the real world.

[scootrd]

Recall definitely getting personal.  At least he has a lot in common with Newt . 


It's not that Republican Wisconsin State senator Randy Hopper's wife thinks he's been a bad lawmaker, necessarily. More like a bad person. As Hopper's wife explained to protesters at her home last week, her husband now lives with his 25-year-old mistress, a former State Senate staffer. Mrs. Hopper reportedly intends to sign the recall petition against Hopper. Her maid has already done so.


"Dems have now collected over 56,000 signatures supporting the recall drives...after another surge in organizing activity over the weekend. That's up from roughly 14,000 after last weekend. This means Dems are well ahead of schedule before the 60 day deadlines after first filing for recalls, which happened nearly two weeks ago. In other words, Dems are reporting they are nearly halfway to the finish line, with roughly three-fourths of the allotted time remaining."