Democratic senators bail ship

[scootrd]

And how many of those products does government produce???  Sure it consumes, but it doesn't produce.... Even tang....

When did the subject switch to produce products?

The debate was specifically The Govt doesn't create Jobs. -  My response was they do, as much as some would like to believe they don't.
I daaitionally went on to challenge there is no such thing a fake Job (whatever that was suppose to mean) , unless your getting paid with monopoly money.

I simply stated a true fact.
Government policies support the creation of private sector jobs. In many instances, GOVERNMENT is the catalyst.
In many cases, it’s government that HIRES the private sector!!

Don't worry I 'm not asking anyone to admit it, cause that would require some to pull their heads out of the sand.
Safer to remain an Ostrich.

[scootrd]

Well, there ya go. Our country at both the state levels and federal level has no financial issues.

Now where was that ever said in the above? Of course there are financial issues. But the direction Walker took 
has less to do with solving those issues and more to do with busting unions , politics as usual , and the 2012
election agenda.

[Dixie Dude]

I know some of you guys are union members.  However, I don't think my tax money should fund anything the goverment pays for, including labor, that is higher than the average worker.  If the union workers for the state get more than private companies that are union, this is not right.  It is not fair for the taxpayer.  If they get retirement and medical care better than the average taxpayer, then it isn't fair for the tax payers to fund this.  Enough is enough.  I am tired of my tax dollars funding people who get paid more than me for the same type job.  I am tired of waste in government, duplication, funding for public radio and TV, funding to study some termites sex habits.  I am tired of paying foreign aid except in emergencies like earthquakes and tsunamis.  I am tired of welfare fraud.  No pay for healthy adults who can work.  I am tired of funding welfare babies, I say sterilise after two if they get welfare.  I am tired of school teachers and school districts turning out stupid students.  Get back to basics.  Teach it the old fashioned way.  Stop experimenting.  I'm tired of fighting unwinable wars.  Close the borders, send the illegals home.  Close down bases in countries who don't need them anymore like in Europe.  Stay out of civil wars like in Libya.  Every time they fire a cruise missle, there goes a million dollars blown up.  Drill our own oil, stop importing.  Use alternatives like natural gas.  Unions were fine in the past when they were needed, but we have work week laws, minimum wage laws, etc.  Don't need them anymore in most places.  TEA - TAXED ENOUGH ALREADY.  CUT ALL BUDGETS, BOTH FEDERAL AND STATES.  I don't agree with all Republicans, but if they promise to cut budgets, not spend my money on abortions and wasteful spending, I'm voting for them.  Enough is enough. 

[Cabin4]

Keep dreaming Scoot. The subject of this thread was the state of WI. None of those union jobs do anything to contribute to this country’s GDP. And anyone with their head out of the sand knows that the government can only collect money from the private sector based on real GDP jobs and respend it into sectors of the economy. The money was already made once, which means the government respending that which it collects from tax revenue is largely a money redistribution process.

Raising tax, high taxes or deficit spending to employ government workers are make work jobs. Semitics if it’s make or create. The bottom line is they only exist due to private sector job creation which translates into real wealth for this nation. Anyone that thinks you state workers are somehow helping the economy is pure bunkola! Not supported by any single economic concept. They are strictly a cost of doing business to GDP. So the goal should always be as low as possible as is the principal in any business scenario. But since you big government proponents of spending everyone else’s money get your pocket book hurt by smart tax & spend concepts, you have to build these smoke screens. Good work, you got about 28 pages dedicated to it on this thread alone.

[scootrd]

Walker's legislation was not made for Wisconsin, but model legislation now being introduced in other states
as well. It is part of a concerted effort of republicans to cut drastically public services, and then privatize
them. The mastermind behind this strategy is the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) composed of
powerful corporations and state legislators.

Walker claims to have campaigned on taking away the collective bargaining rights of public works. But while he did campaign on having state employees pay more for their health insurance and their pensions, (which I agree with) he suspiciously didn't make his proposals to take away collective bargaining rights until after the election. This is a Fact.

Rather, after the election, according to Wisconsin's Capitol Times, Walker and Wisconsin Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald jetted off to an ALEC conference where they met with Governors from states where labor rights are weak such as Mississippi's Haley Barbour and Louisiana's Bobby Jindal.

Commenting on the ALEC session , Fitzgerald stated "he was surprised how much momentum there was around that discussion."So, if you really want to be an informed research ALEC, its legislative agenda as they are the real power behind Walker's initiatives, and it has nothing to do with balancing Budgets. Hes a paid for puppet politician of big business and Republican 2012 agenda.

I'm glad Walker thinks he gave them the Tools needed to balance their Budget.  Because of him next January, the biggest tool will be removed through Recall from Wisconsin's statehouse through the voters using their constitutional tools to request his "small" sacrifice of forced retirement.

So we will disagree on this matter till the cows come home.  -So I will let it lay.
I will sit back and watch Wisconsin  and pick this thread back up after it all plays out.

I stand will Labor.

[Cabin4]

You mean you will stand with fake made up labor jobs at the exspense of the tax payer.

[DDZ]

Walker's legislation was not made for Wisconsin, but model legislation now being introduced in other states
as well. It is part of a concerted effort of republicans to cut drastically public services, and then privatize
them.

What ever is wrong with this happening? If it does happen it will be none to soon. Hallelujah!

[Dixie Dude]

Briggs and Stratton moved to Alabama a few years ago to avoid high labor costs to be able to compete against Honda and others in the small engine market.  They were located in Wisconsin.  They are doing well here, no strikes.  They hire full time maintenance and supervisory people.  They hire part time college students to do the work and they appreciate the jobs.  They are more flexible with this than if it was unionised.  Jobs are better than working at one of the many fast food restaurants for students. 

[Buckskin]

Briggs was once a great force here in Wisconsin's manufacturing sector.  Chased out of here with a whip, high taxes and an unreasonable union.  Those jobs are gone forever from Wisconsin because of taxation and union greed, period. And it isn't an isolated case.  Manufacturing is all but gone in Wisconsin compared to 20- 30 years ago, and the ones remaining are on the brink of moving to right to work states as well.  Hmmm, sounds kind of familiar to Detroits woes.  Coincidence???

And the union thugs want the taxpayers to keep paying for chilian seabass while forcing us to eat bullhead.

[jimster]

Hmmm, sounds kind of familiar to Detroits woes.  Coincidence???

Not a coincidence.  It's the way things always work out when the people's tax money is sought after and bargained for by governments, unions, and people who don't pull their weight. The math says there just is not enough private sector to hold it all up anymore.
The private sector is the only place where money is generated and moved without being held up by other tax payers, when you run them out of town there will be no more money unless you print it. We tried that too. Not sure how many more cities will fall before someone uses a calculator.  When a city falls to this kind of thing the leaches that did it move on to another city and start all over again. 

 

[Gary G]

Like I have said before, there are two ways to make a living:
1. Work for what you want.
2. Let someone else work and then steal it. But that will get you in trouble.

Some have figured out an easier and less dangerous way; have the government steal it for you.
Frederic Bastiat, "The Law", 1848

[scootrd]

You mean you will stand with fake made up labor jobs at the exspense of the tax payer.

Well you know it's all about balancing the Budget  - 

Hmm wonder why Senator Randy Hopper got his Girlfriend Valerie Cass one of those Fake Jobs then with a great increase in salary to Boot $43,200 vs her predecessor who was only paid $31,200 a year.

It's also interesting Cass's name does not appear on the lengthy list of job applicants to Walkers transition team.

An internal staff directory lists Cass as working in the secretary's office as the assistant to the executive assistant.
From secretary to communications specialist within the state Department of Regulation and Licensing and enjoying a huge bump in pay to boot bypassing all those other communications degreed applicants. Yep,  all about balancing that budget and eliminating those fake jobs. 

Cronyism at it's best.  I expect nothing less , from these  guys.

[billy_56081]

Just about to the recall,only a piddling 78% of signatures left to get.

[Cabin4]

And your point is: found a fake job..justly all of them at any pay/comp?
Okay. Whatever you want to beleive, go right ahead. Your not fooling anyone except yourself.

You could have done so much better on this entire thread. Nothing wrong with saying soemthing like: Like it or not, this country has gone this route to employ people to perform certain services in the public sector. We owe it to them to pay them a decent wage & benys. Then the debate would have been more confined to "How Much" and "How Many". Instead, you a one other poster tried to turn these workers into something they just are not, the politics into something far streached from what it is and the states finances into something only found by phycos on Mars.

Now your grasping for straws and tid bits of info that mean nothing to the larger issue at hand and word games on "create" verus "make".

Have it your way. This can be your Burger King keyboard.

[ironglow]

Jobs should be put out to competitive bidding, and I mean competetive...without the state interfereing with the contractor's wage scale.  Why should the state pay a single dime more of taxpayer's money for a job than necessary, no matter who is doing it ?
 
 As far as the Wisconsin issue moving to other states..it's about time, let everyone EARN their paycheck.

  Nothing wrong with public utilities and services being privatized..if a private firm can do more for less, more power to them !  There are other things which can be privatized..prisons, schools (via vouchers), some highway depts, some police depts, and most certainly, the post office...

[Cabin4]

I don't disagree with that. Privitization is one way for the tax payers to ensure they are getting the best deal. However, the purvayors of big government union monopolies will hate this. Competition is thier worst enemy.

[ironglow]

  The big union lie...they shouldn't have to compete...

    Cars, hamburgers, shotguns, fried chicken, movies, socket wrenches or tiddlywinks....everything is improved by COMPETITION.  In the real world people must compete every day..the auto technician who wants to be floor boss better keep learning and keep excelling.  The widget salesman better convince customers it is best that they buy their widgets fron him.
  A sausage maker must produce the freshest, tastiest sausages... or get run out of town by the maker who does...and the plumber should make the neatest, best sealed joints...if they want to be promoted..
   Why should teachers be allowed to slide ?

[Cabin4]

  The big union lie...they shouldn't have to compete...

    Cars, hamburgers, shotguns, fried chicken, movies, socket wrenches or tiddlywinks....everything is improved by COMPETITION.  In the real world people must compete every day..the auto technician who wants to be floor boss better keep learning and keep excelling.  The widget salesman better convince customers it is best that they buy their widgets fron him.
  A sausage maker must produce the freshest, tastiest sausages... or get run out of town by the maker who does...and the plumber should make the neatest, best sealed joints...if they want to be promoted..
   Why should teachers be allowed to slide ?

Thus the fight against the school "Voucher System". This could be the first step towards competition. The teachers unions have been very good at fighting it off.

[ironglow]

  Here is the very best reason why the whole nation should go to a voucher system for the educational system.  The public school monopoly must be broken !  Listen to the farewell speech by Bob Chanin, 41 years serving, and head lawyer for NEA (National Education Assn)...largest teacher's union..
   He ought to know what makes them tick !

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-piPkgAUo0w

  I hope everyone noticed how, as he listed the greedy,selfish, self-serving hallmarks of the NEA..the audience, composed entirely of teachers, rose in unison and gave him a "standing O"...

  So, next time they say "it's for the children"...uh-huh...

[DDZ]

A friend of mine works for a government run agency, which has a public union. Like any other government run agency it is run very poorly, and is always needing more and more funding. My friend who I consider a conservative tells me all the time how much he hates the union, he is a part of, because he sees all the wrongs that it creates. He said that the waste, and theft is unbelievable. Guys that do about an hour of work a day, if that, and this IS theft. Its no different than walking off with something in your pocket, its theft of time. Theft of tools and other property. He said that this theft has to cost thousands and thousands of dollars each year. Then he tells me of the over all waste of money because of the way the agency is run.
This is just one government run agency with a union, and I have to believe many others are the same. Its unbelievable that there are people that support public unions, and what they do. It is a matter of right and wrong.   

[Buckskin]

I'm curious how 7% of the Wisconsin's workers, many of them making near and some over 100k plus beni's can single handedly destroy the middle class???  Do you think Walker is going to drop these salaries down to minimum wage? The left is so delusional it's embarrassing.  3rd world country, ha.  You need to get out into the world a little TM7...

[carbineman]

There is not much to be said that hasn't already been posted here, but since a fellow from Wyoming that I've shared a few hunts with sent me this email I thought I'd share his views with the forum that he sent to our email group;

<<<<<I was going to stay out of this one... but simply could not do so!

In my not-so-humble opinion, unions represent a purely socialist outlook on life.

Unions are all about the "collective" and nothing about the "individual". They have destroyed much of what made this country great insofar as our free market economy is concerned but, beyond that, I firmly believe that the entire concept is diametrically opposed to our basic principles as Americans and our basic principles as Christians.

There is no such thing as "collective salvation" and there is no such thing as "collective liberty".

It is bad enough when a private enterprise allows unions to enter the workplace but that is the decision of the business owner. They can decide anything they want if they own the place. However, when it comes to "public sector" unions -- they should never exist for any reason.

The bottom line with public sector unions is that they do not "negotiate" with the folks who are paying the bills. There is no way that the interests of the taxpayer are properly represented during "collective bargaining"... and don't even pretend that they look out for the individual worker.

Whether you are the top man on the job or a worthless dung heap, it's all the same in their eyes. The good workers get screwed and the taxpayers get screwed... how can anyone justify that stuff with a straight face and an honest understanding of the process?

You can say anything you want about worker "safety" being the purpose for unions and I'll call BS... every time. Even the legendary talk of unions in regard to mine workers is misplaced as far as I'm concerned.

The bottom line with "dangerous" jobs is the same as the bottom line with any other job... you know going in what you're expected to do and what the boss is willing to pay you for doing it. If you don't like the arrangement, go elsewhere.

I've held a number of jobs that contained a fair share of danger - in law enforcement and in the oil field to name two - and I never belonged to a union and wouldn't belong to a union.

"They that can give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." From my perspective, Franklin wasn't simply talking about government...

Saint, I respect the fact that you have entered a field where you lay it on the line to serve your community. However, you knew what the job was going in and you knew what it paid. I have no sympathy for anyone, and that includes firemen and policemen, who complain about working conditions and expect someone else to "bargain" on their behalf.

An honest empoyee and an honest employer can discuss any issue - whether that be safety, compensation, benefits, or the color of the walls in the office - and come to reasonable agreements without the aid of a union representative.

If either is dishonest, the union rep won't be changing that fact.

As far as I'm concerned, the biggest mistake that Gov. Walker has made has been his inability to plainly articulate the full spectrum of reasons why union-busting on the state level is a good thing.

If I were King, I'd bust every public sector union in the nation... period.

That's the view from here.>>>>>




 






 

[carbineman]

I'm curious how 7% of the Wisconsin's workers, many of them making near and some over 100k plus beni's can single handedly destroy the middle class???  Do you think Walker is going to drop these salaries down to minimum wage? The left is so delusional it's embarrassing.  3rd world country, ha.  You need to get out into the world a little TM7...

.
Once again you miss the point.  We're talking overall trends here...During the great building of the middle class unions represented 30-35% of labor....now unions represent ard 10% of labor....do you see a correlation? I can assure you Walker and others of his persuasion do. rather than correct or repair organized labor, to make it a useful entity again...he just wants to erase it.  So what is Walker et al's agenda..?

..TM7

I would suggest that lowered union memberships are a result of union shops leaving the country or going south where the right to work states exist.

[Cabin4]

Walker is not wiping out any Union. That rubbish.

Whats the Unions agenda? Rape the tax payers. History is proof.

[ironglow]

So what has your union friend done to improve the situation....Has he started committees to improve honesty, attrack competent workers and work with management to improve the operation?. Or just complain and vote for politicians who desire to eliminate worker organizations.?  What corp doesn't wan't compliant docile workers at each other's throats to get ahead, working for less and less,,,which seems to be the plight of the non-unionized worker in today's America by the way, and as HC cost skyrocket.  Unions were, should, and can be part of the operation fundamentals...if they want it. Walker the Destroyer doesn't want this...he just wants that little inconvenience gone...erased...i.e. scared workers, mostly all temps, without rights, squeaking by to make a decent living....Walker doesn't care about the middle class in either sector.  No middle class=3rd world country...

..TM7

  TM;
   I don't know what your experience with unions has been, but from my experience your ideas suggested here would be rejected out of hand by the union.  Let's look at each one;

1) Start a committee to "improve honesty, attract competent workers and work with management"..you've got to be kidding ! Those three things would certainly be rejected.  HONESTY..getting 8 hours pay for 2 hours work is a "win" to the unions..  ATTRACT COMPETENT WORKERS..one of the hallmarks of unionism is protecting the incompetent.. WORK WITH MANAGEMENT...your union boss would never allow that; it his perogative to "drive hard bargains" with management.
  I have worked both union and non-union and chances of doing the above things are 100% more likely without union interference !
  I have worked in the best of both worlds, a situation which most sensible corporations have adopted..that is a "profit sharing" program..and being allowed to buy into the company's stock program..
    If a worker is getting returns in regular checks and is invested in the company, there is no reason to be at war with management ! Why on God's green earth should a worker be angry with the owners...when he is one of them
  Unions hate the profit sharing idea, because it cuts them out ! Why should a worker give a percentage of his/her pay to some fat-cat smoking big cigars 
   From my experience, unions almost invariably cultivate an US~VS~THEM mentality, seperating workers and management..the management being the "enemy"...   Turmoil keeps the union bosses sitting in the cat bird seat...and effectively kills productivity..
 

[Buckskin]

I'm curious how 7% of the Wisconsin's workers, many of them making near and some over 100k plus beni's can single handedly destroy the middle class???  Do you think Walker is going to drop these salaries down to minimum wage? The left is so delusional it's embarrassing.  3rd world country, ha.  You need to get out into the world a little TM7...

.
Once again you miss the point.  We're talking overall trends here...During the great building of the middle class unions represented 30-35% of labor....now unions represent ard 10% of labor....do you see a correlation? I can assure you Walker and others of his persuasion do. rather than correct or repair organized labor, to make it a useful entity again...he just wants to erase it.  So what is Walker et al's agenda..?

..TM7

I would suggest that lowered union memberships are a result of union shops leaving the country or going south where the right to work states exist.

Exactly!  I don't hear too many workers in right to work states clamoring to get unions in there.  What does that tell you.

In other news, Wisconsin has borrowed $1.56 billion to pay for unemployment benefits...

[Cabin4]

How is that possible Buckskin? Wisconsin cannot borrow money since we have learned with this thread that they have boat loads of cash stashed away they don't even know what to do with. There are unnamed sources that claim there are secret warehouses full of cash someplace on the planet full of Wisconsin cash.

All we need to do is increase the union workers pay, benys and pension program back up now in advance of actually finding the cash. Lets let the next Gov worry about evaluating all this. In the mean tme the workers will get what they want and the tax payers will just have to pay up to fill the gap of this secret stash of cash.

[Buckskin]

Yeah, it seems odd to me that a state so flush with cash that they would borrow $1.5 billion... But oh well, I'm sure someone here has a good explaination.

[scootrd]

Jobs should be put out to competitive bidding, and I mean competetive...without the state interfereing with the contractor's wage scale. 

and the selling off of state assets should as well.. oh wait Walkers  new bill takes competitive bidding away from that as well
He is all for no-bid contracts.

section 16.896 of the bill

"with or without solicitation of bids, for any amount that the department determines to be in the best interest of the state". 

Thanks Walker. You are truly a credit to your cronies.

[DDZ]

So what has your union friend done to improve the situation....Has he started committees to improve honesty, attrack competent workers and work with management to improve the operation?. Or just complain and vote for politicians who desire to eliminate worker organizations.?  What corp doesn't wan't compliant docile workers at each other's throats to get ahead, working for less and less,,,which seems to be the plight of the non-unionized worker in today's America by the way, and as HC cost skyrocket.  Unions were, should, and can be part of the operation fundamentals...if they want it. Walker the Destroyer doesn't want this...he just wants that little inconvenience gone...erased...i.e. scared workers, mostly all temps, without rights, squeaking by to make a decent living....Walker doesn't care about the middle class in either sector.  No middle class=3rd world country...

..TM7

My friend is in a sea of corruption with no support for the things you mention, like starting committees. If he did some of the things you mention he would probably get his tires sliced or worse. As far as talking to management, it falls on deaf ears. Management knows what is going on, They see the theft of time, tools and property. I'll tell you why they don't do anything, its because they are part of the system. What incentive do they have to run a tight budget? Or what incentive do they have to make everyone work maybe four hours out of the day? They do not have to show any profit. If they see they are getting close to their budget end, they just ask for more next year and get it. He told me there is a number of guys that sleep during the day. They actually sleep while on the job, and they get away with it. If management would try to do something they would be fought by the union with no chance of anything happening.
My friend told me that he saw management personal handing out tools for employees to take home, telling employees they have to spend all their allotted budget, or they don't get it next year. Some of the things I have mentioned here are just part of what goes on where my friend works. By the way, the government business my friend works for is millions in debt. There is talk of selling state run toll roads to keep it afloat. Also adding various taxes. (How surprising) 
 Tax payers have no idea of the waste, and fraud that goes on with a government run entity, along with a public labor union calling the shots.
I agree with Ironglow, TM. "You have got to be kidding"!   

TM, you and  scootrd are very wrong on this issue. The line is being drawn and you guys are on the wrong side.