Democratic senators bail ship

[Cabin4]

Public unions: Corrupt, immoral, unethical, politically imbedded with massive dollar contributions. They are bankrupting America. No one represents the tax payer. We need to outlaw unions in the public sector. Its as simple as that. They have abused and gamed the system. Put an end to it once and for all.
http://thpatriots.blogspot.com/2011/03/public-disservice-government-union.html

[ironglow]

"Name calling" is when a term is applied which doesn't fit the given subject.  If it fits the subject, it's not name calling, but simply a descriptive term, rather like calling an eagle "a bird of prey"..
  The term parasite is perfectly valid, and fits politicians of all political stripe. although not equally in numbers.  The fact is, where the govt itself moves beyond the constitution and creates or supports useless or even destructive programs (e.g. Acorn, Dept of Education , ACLU, Planned Parenthood and no-money-down real estate), then taxes citizens to cover the cost; that govt itself has become parasitic !

[XD40SC]

Liberals are the most intollerant group next to radical muslims...



YEP. POWDERMAN. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now that there's funny- I don't care who you are.-LTCG.

[Cabin4]

IG...Name calling is ridicule plain and simple....it indicates a deficit of word knowledge, brain power, and a personality trait flaw...and unwillingness, or lack, in completely understanding the subject at hand. Name calling is common among the 'authoritarian' follower types who think they can short track to having their opinions prevail or dominate a discussion....cheap intimidation actually..

The pot calling the kettle black. Or was this a case of introspection?

[dukkillr]

This thread has gone on longer than any I can remember.  I've allowed both sides a lot of freedom to take shots at the other.  Lets tighten it up now.  Name calling, even in the generic sense is OVER NOW.  The next insult, subtle or otherwise, will lock this thread.

[XD40SC]

This thread has gone on longer than any I can remember.  I've allowed both sides a lot of freedom to take shots at the other.  Lets tighten it up now.  Name calling, even in the generic sense is OVER NOW.  The next insult, subtle or otherwise, will lock this thread.

+1
 

[ironglow]

  Scoot says;
 
   "The new Republican party has been hijacked by a bunch of Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrr Right wing republican nut jobs,  and  any politician that wants to survive must now morph to the extreme right to appease.  The Dems have moved Far left on the other end of the spectrum . So where does that leave Moderate Republicans and Moderate Dems?  -  Nowhere."
   


    Scoot;
  From your perspective on the left, I can see where you would consider full conservatives (fiscal AND cultural) to be "Faaaaaaarrrrrrrr right wing", and I can accept that.
    Can you accept that Obama & Co.,  e.g. Rev Wright, Saul Alinsky (Rules for Radicals), Frank Marshall Davis (communist poet), Wm Ayers & Bernadine Dohrn (Weathermen terrorists) and Louis Farrakhan are indeed Faaaaarrrrrr Left wing, some even to the point of being hate merchants and some, convicted terrorists ?

     

[scootrd]

A moderate is nothing more than a confused person who isn't sure where his moral beliefs stand.  Either that or they just plainly won't admit to being a liberal...  Kind of like sleeping with an ugly woman, many do it - but most don't want to admit it... 

Hopefully TM and Scoot will re-read carbineman's post and let it sink in...

I disagree . the art of politics is compromise to reach the best possible decisions for the majority of Americans.
It's not one side ramrodding through HC , it's not the other side stripping away collective bargaining ..it's reasonable and responsible legislatures sitting down in bi-partisan fashion and working together to craft legislation that moves the country forward for the Nations majority . (and the Majority is moderate mainstream). 

[scootrd]

Listening to some here talk about raising corp. taxes…it ridiculous. They have no idea what they are mumbling about. Close some of the loop-holes. That is not the issue nor is it going to make a dent in a $14trillion dollar deficit. This country just spends too damn much. It’s as simple as that. Lower the corp. tax rate and jobs will return because corporations will make money off it. If they make money, tax revenues will go up. Cut spending by X and reduce taxes by Y. In addition, we need Trade policy change. Those that will not play fair with the US (Brazil included) we need to implement an import duty/tax process. Brazil places anywhere from a 40% to 200% import tax on our products. Yet in return, we place almost nothing in their import to the US. And to boot, Obama just gave Brazil $2billion of our tax dollars. Other similar countries are India and Russia. 20% to 300% import duty/tax assessed on our imported goods and excessive import restrictions that further increase a company’s operating costs.

We have a philosophical disagreement ..

One .. I personally have never said we should raise the corporate tax rate.
two .. I do believe we should not extend Corporate tax cuts or subsidies to corporations that outsource or off shore.
Three ..I do believe they need to eliminate tax loopholes , and make our tax system  less complex.
four .. I am not in disagreement of "Lowering" the corporate tax rate, as soon as the 2/3rds of the corporations that are paying no taxes now through tax avoidance agree to stop and agree to start re-investing in American Jobs . I do not believe in giving something for nothing. It's a two way street. and as stated earlier by me TM and possible a few others it's more than the occasions GE . it's 2/3rds or the corporation now that pay no taxes.

I also agree with the import duty/tax process.

Five , I firmly believe no matter what they do lowering (or even making the tax rate zero ) this will not bring Jobs back.

[Cabin4]

The art of politics is not the solution, it is the problem. Compromise is not a political game. Compromise is about "settlement" on an issue no matter it be politics, business or other so you can move forward. In our system of government, to many politicians in the act of perfecting the "art of politics" have compromised the integrity and principals in our constitution. That is not suppose to be allowed. That is the problem.

Compromise simply for the purpose of political expediency means failure for our country unless its grounded in constitutional foundations.

[gypsyman]

This thread was started because I thought it was completely wrong for the senators to just walk out. They are getting paid to legislate, not disappear to a different state. And, now some are trying to get Republican's on a re-count. Just becasue they didn't like the way things are turning out.
Well, it's been said before. You can complain,scream, protest, do whatever about a politician, and what they do. That's only one person. The real problem is, it takes 10,000,-20,000,or more to elect that person. You can vote the politician out in a couple years. What do you do with the idiots that voted for that person??gypsyman

[scootrd]

  Scoot says;
 
   "The new Republican party has been hijacked by a bunch of Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrr Right wing republican nut jobs,  and  any politician that wants to survive must now morph to the extreme right to appease.  The Dems have moved Far left on the other end of the spectrum . So where does that leave Moderate Republicans and Moderate Dems?  -  Nowhere."
   


    Scoot;
  From your perspective on the left, I can see where you would consider full conservatives (fiscal AND cultural) to be "Faaaaaaarrrrrrrr right wing", and I can accept that.
    Can you accept that Obama & Co.,  e.g. Rev Wright, Saul Alinsky (Rules for Radicals), Frank Marshall Davis (communist poet), Wm Ayers & Bernadine Dohrn (Weathermen terrorists) and Louis Farrakhan are indeed Faaaaarrrrrr Left wing, some even to the point of being hate merchants and some, convicted terrorists ?

Rev Wright . Yes I can certainly accept.
Saul Alinsky (Rules for Radicals), Never read his writings , so cannot comment
Frank Marshall Davis (communist poet), don't know his works, so cannot comment
Wm Ayers & Bernadine Dohrn (Weathermen terrorists) yes at one time , don't know anything about him now.
and Louis Farrakhan , yes I can certainly accept.
and Jessie Jackson and a whole host of others.

As I said , there are far right and far left .. And I guess by others standards I must be part of the confused masses because I am a moderate. A little more Liberal on social issues,  and a bit more conservative on Fiscal issues. 

[scootrd]

The art of politics is not the solution, it is the problem. Compromise is not a political game. Compromise is about "settlement" on an issue no matter it be politics, business or other so you can move forward. In our system of government, to many politicians in the act of perfecting the "art of politics" have compromised the integrity and principals in our constitution. That is not suppose to be allowed. That is the problem.

Compromise simply for the purpose of political expediency means failure for our country unless its grounded in constitutional foundations.

As I stated ..we have a philosophical disagreement

On compromise in politics:
“I see the necessity of sacrificing our opinions sometimes to the opinions of others for the sake of harmony.”

Thomas Jefferson

I find it interesting Tea Party advocates admire Ronald Reagan and scorn compromise, Reagan understood the need for compromise. The great Compromiser. What President Reagan understood was compromise isn’t the same as a concession. He understood the importance of consensus. And as an adept politician he was able to negotiate compromise without ever giving up his core beliefs or values.

"When I began entering into the give and take of legislative bargaining in Sacramento, a lot of the most radical conservatives who had supported me during the election didn't like it. Compromise" was a dirty word to them and they wouldn't face the fact that we couldn't get all of what we wanted today. They wanted all or nothing and they wanted it all at once. If you don't get it all, some said, don't take anything. I'd learned while negotiating union contracts that you seldom got everything you asked for. And I agreed with FDR, who said in 1933: I have no expectations of making a hit every time I come to bat. What I seek is the highest possible batting average. If you got seventy-five or eighty percent of what you were asking for, I say, you take it and fight for the rest later, and that's what I told these radical conservatives who never got used to it.

Ronald Reagan

[Cabin4]

The art of politics is not the solution, it is the problem. Compromise is not a political game. Compromise is about "settlement" on an issue no matter it be politics, business or other so you can move forward. In our system of government, to many politicians in the act of perfecting the "art of politics" have compromised the integrity and principals in our constitution. That is not suppose to be allowed. That is the problem.

Compromise simply for the purpose of political expediency means failure for our country unless its grounded in constitutional foundations.

As I stated ..we have a philosophical disagreement

That would mean you don't beleive in our constitution. I did not state a position, I stated a result. Are you sure about that?

[scootrd]

That would mean you don't believe in our constitution. I did not state a position, I stated a result. Are you sure about that?

Read my edited quotes above. Did Reagan or Jefferson not believe in our constitution?

[Buckskin]

http://www.journaltimes.com/polls/html_e7df0506-44fc-11e0-b687-001cc4c002e0.html#pd_a_4647768%23pd_a_4647768%23pd_a_4647768

Here is a poll for Scooter, since he is sooo into those...

[ironglow]

TM says;
  "IG...Name calling is ridicule plain and simple....it indicates a deficit of word knowledge, brain power, and a personality trait flaw...and unwillingness, or lack, in completely understanding the subject at hand. Name calling is common among the 'authoritarian' follower types who think they can short track to having their opinions prevail or dominate a discussion....cheap intimidation actually"


  Thanks TM;
   You prove my point..name calling, when the term does not fit, is all those things you stated above.. however if the term fits the subject, it's not name-calling, it's simply using a descriptive term.  For instance, If you called Joseph Stalin a communist, that's not name calling..that is simply stating a fact....but if you call Bugs Bunny a 'hound dog'..that's name-calling..

[ironglow]

  For Scoot;
   Here's some info on Frank Marshall Davis..the man B Hussein Obama cited in his books as his personal "mentor";

  http://www.usasurvival.org/ck04.07.08.html

   http://www.theurbangrind.net/?p=2805


    ...And a primer on William Ayers, Obama's friend and one who has helped him in his campaigns in Chicago;

   http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2169

  Far from condemning his own terrorist acts in the 1970s, Ayers said in an interview in 2001....

   "All told, Ayers and the Weather Underground were responsible for 30 bombings aimed at destroying the defense and security infrastructures of the U.S.  "I don't regret setting bombs," said Ayers in 2001, "I feel we didn't do enough." That same year, Ayers expressed his enduring hatred for the United States: “What a country. “It makes me want to puke.”

    He still shows no remorse for his terrorist days....
http://takebackbergenfield.com/assembly-members-schroeder-and-vandervalk-call-on-msu-president-to-cancel-appearance-by-controversial-activist/

[Cabin4]

Its inmaterial what Jefferson or Regan said in relation to what I posted. Unless you can show me a quote that says they beleive we should violate the constitution in order to compromise on legislation. You won;t find it.

[scootrd]

Its inmaterial what Jefferson or Regan said in relation to what I posted. Unless you can show me a quote that says they beleive we should violate the constitution in order to compromise on legislation. You won;t find it.

Then perhaps I am not fully understanding your posting. Explain where you think Constitution is being violated?

[ironglow]

  "Politics is the art of compromise"....

   And that is exactly why people with principles dislike and distrust...politics and politicians...

[Cabin4]

Its inmaterial what Jefferson or Regan said in relation to what I posted. Unless you can show me a quote that says they beleive we should violate the constitution in order to compromise on legislation. You won;t find it.

Then perhaps I am not fully understanding your posting. Explain where you think Constitution is being violated?

As it relates to the specific issue with WI State Unions or in general?

[scootrd]

Its inmaterial what Jefferson or Regan said in relation to what I posted. Unless you can show me a quote that says they beleive we should violate the constitution in order to compromise on legislation. You won;t find it.

Then perhaps I am not fully understanding your posting. Explain where you think Constitution is being violated?

As it relates to the specific issue with WI State Unions or in general?

and Again I believe this covered it as it relates specifically to the specific issue with WI State Unions or in general?.

"When I began entering into the give and take of legislative bargaining in Sacramento, a lot of the most radical conservatives who had supported me during the election didn't like it. Compromise" was a dirty word to them and they wouldn't face the fact that we couldn't get all of what we wanted today. They wanted all or nothing and they wanted it all at once. If you don't get it all, some said, don't take anything. I'd learned while negotiating union contracts that you seldom got everything you asked for. And I agreed with FDR, who said in 1933: I have no expectations of making a hit every time I come to bat. What I seek is the highest possible batting average. If you got seventy-five or eighty percent of what you were asking for, I say, you take it and fight for the rest later, and that's what I told these radical conservatives who never got used to it.

Ronald Reagan

So specifically Labor agreed to concessions regarding fiscal HC and Pension issues. (that takes care of the Budget issue) I'd say that would have been the 75 or 80% Reagan would have looked for. But again , as Reagan stated these radical conservatives never get use to it. 

[Buckskin]

"When I began entering into the give and take of legislative bargaining in Sacramento, a lot of the most radical conservatives who had supported me during the election didn't like it. Compromise" was a dirty word to them and they wouldn't face the fact that we couldn't get all of what we wanted today. They wanted all or nothing and they wanted it all at once. If you don't get it all, some said, don't take anything. I'd learned while negotiating union contracts that you seldom got everything you asked for. And I agreed with FDR, who said in 1933: I have no expectations of making a hit every time I come to bat. What I seek is the highest possible batting average. If you got seventy-five or eighty percent of what you were asking for, I say, you take it and fight for the rest later, and that's what I told these radical conservatives who never got used to it.

Ronald Reagan

So specifically Labor agreed to concessions regarding fiscal HC and Pension issues. (that takes care of the Budget issue) I'd say that would have been the 75 or 80% Reagan would have looked for. But again , as Reagan stated these radical conservatives never get use to it.

Now, Scoot... Do you really think Reagan would have given in if he knew he could get the whole tomato???  Why fight for it later when you can get it today??
And by chance, was this speech given in an election year???  He was a politician you know...

And did you get a chance to vote in the poll above??? 56% strongly in favor of Walkers work compared to 44% apposed...  Realize that most people want this done.  And the courts getting in the way of a legislative process violates the constitution... Liberal judges acting as politician are a poison to our country.

[scootrd]

Now, Scoot... Do you really think Reagan would have given in if he knew he could get the whole tomato???  Why fight for it later when you can get it today??
And by chance, was this speech given in an election year???  He was a politician you know...

He stated it well after he left office and it was in his own words.

________________
Just about a month ago, dozens of Indiana state House Democrats fled to Illinois to shut down what they said was a Republican agenda that targeted workers rights and the public schools. Today Gov. Mitch Daniels agreed to a compromise.

"Today we can announce compromises that are great steps forward for working Hoosiers."

Here is one of the big highlights from the compromise,

• Labor: Republicans have agreed to scrap the controversial right-to-work law and pledged not to pass a law making the state's existing ban on collective bargaining for state workers, created by Daniels executive order, permanent.

 • GOP state lawmakers also killed legislation for a private takeover of public schools and an outright ban of Project Labor Agreements.

* And the polls question you cite asks nothing about the stripping of Collective Bargaining which the Majority absolutely disagree with Walker on.

The public is adamantly against eliminating public employees' collective-bargaining rights -- as Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker (R) is pursuing states the latest WSJ poll, a whopping 68 percent find it acceptable requiring public employees to contribute more of their pay for retirement benefits; 63 percent are fine with requiring these employees to pay more for their health-care benefits; and 58 percent are OK with freezing public employees' salaries for one year.

But just 33 percent say it's acceptable -- and 62 percent say it's unacceptable -- to eliminate these employees' collective-bargaining rights as way to deal with state budget deficits.

In addition, 77 percent believe that public employees should have the same collective-bargaining rights that union employees who work for private companies have. poll -- has a margin of error of plus-minus 3.1

[Buckskin]

* And the polls question you cite asks nothing about the stripping of Collective Bargaining which the Majority absolutely disagree with Walker on.

Your right, it asks nothing about collective bargaining. And I'm sure that the 56% of people who voted "strongly agree with Walkers performance"  know nothing about his bill castrating it. Give me a break... You liberals try to divert everything...

Indiana republicans are fools for giving in.  And I am proud that Wisconsin conservatives have stuck to their guns, and will so in the future. 

Your polls are likely from your union hall...

[Buckskin]

Give me a break TM, you know you voted for Carter....

[Cabin4]

There has never been any compromise on the part of the state unions so why should the tax payers compromise now with the unions?

Interesting how its all about "compromise" when some of your power has been depleted. Otherwise, there is no question, the unions would be looking for a raise right now even in the face of financial disaster for the state and the average non-union worker.

What a laugh!

[Buckskin]

There has never been any compromise on the part of the state unions so why should the tax payers compromise now with the unions?

Interesting how its all about "compromise" when some of your power has been depleted. Otherwise, there is no question, the unions would be looking for a raise right now even in the face of financial disaster for the state and the average non-union worker.

What a laugh!

Amen Brother!!!

[beerbelly]

Compromise to the left means let me have my way! No matter that the other side just won the election, They are still suppose to let the liberals have their way through compromise!
  Now when they win the election, they believe in no such thing! In the words of Obama, elections have consequences! He Then pushed through bunches of left wing laws with no input from the Republicans! The left wants us to compromise away our country!