Democratic senators bail ship

[billy_56081]

Well when you get a chance then...

 It is after all easier to gloss over things that dispute your views...

why would I dispute (or even refute for that matter) my own views? 

Views verses facts, I'll stick with the facts. Hey Scoot how is the recall coming along? They are up to a whopping 23% and only a piddling 77% left to go. Just wait until it comes time to verify the signatures I will bet that the true number is less that 15%.

[Dee]

Quote from Dee:

No, the union would have forced the wages up, and then WalMart would have passed the cost on to the consumer.

So it is fine to not pay the female employees as much as males and not advance them like males to keep prices down at Wally World? If they lose the suit it will end up costing them wayyyyy more than if they had treated all alike which then those costs will have to be passed on.
GuzziJohn

guzzi, my attitude toward the pay at a job, is if you don't like the wage, don't take the job. Your attitude is if you don't like the pay, is sic a bunch of hoodlum union thugs on the owner and strong arm him into paying what YOU think the job should pay. Liberals have made this legal in many states cause the same damn union thugs that bully business owners, pay the politicians to make it legal.
If I were in such a business, and the unions tried such BS, I close the doors to the business and move it to another state, and they could all starve, which is exactly what is happening up north in several places, and your unions will not be satisfied until states like Wisconsin are broke. But hey! As long as you get yours, to hell with the rest of the state.

[Forestclimber]

I don't understand why they are going after just some of the unions.  Why don't they end all of the unions?  That would be fair.

[scootrd]

The secretary of the state of Wisconsin Doug La Follette  just stated Walker and his Administration should be punished for ignoring the courts first ruling and continuing to try and implement the Bill into Law.

Apparently the Walker Administration either can't read , cant hear , or just believe they are above the rule of law.

The Wisconsin circuit court judge who issued an injunction to prevent the state's controversial collective-bargaining bill from becoming law, issued a second order late Tuesday to stop the state from violating her original ruling and chastised Walkers administration for trying to ignore the original ruling.

"Apparently that language was either misunderstood or ignored, but what I said was the further implementation of (the law) was enjoined," Dane County Circuit Judge Maryann Sumi said during a hearing. "That is what I now want to make crystal clear." It is not Law.

[Cabin4]

How can it not be the law if the legislature passed the law?

[billy_56081]

So where does this judges jurisdiction end by WI law?

[dukkillr]

How can it not be the law if the legislature passed the law?

It was stayed by a judge.  I'm not at all familiar with Wisconsin "open meeting" laws, but my understanding is that the claim is that they somehow violated it.

Obviously if a law comes to be by illegal methods it should be blocked, at least until the problem can be repaired.  Not saying that's the case here, I honestly know nothing on the subject but what I've read in the paper.  My understanding is that Gov. Walker is confident in the legal proceedings and has chosen not to simply re-pass the law.  That would seem to indicate to me that they like their legal position.

[Cabin4]

Since when does a cicuit court judge have veto power of the state legislature? I would think (think) this would have to go to the WI State Supreme Court to over turn legislation. In the interim, Walker can apeal and as long as the apeal is in place the law would stand. Could be wrong.

[scootrd]

Since when does a cicuit court judge have veto power of the state legislature? I would think (think) this would have to go to the WI State Supreme Court to over turn legislation. In the interim, Walker can apeal and as long as the apeal is in place the law would stand. Could be wrong.

She is not ruling on whether the law would be legal , she is ruling on if the Bill passed violated Wisconsin's open meetings law during passage. Before any law can go into affect the bill must be ruled on.  Additionally after she rules the law would still need to be published which it has not been because the Secretary honored her first injunction and did not publish it into law. Walkers admin is  definitely in violation.

She additional went on to state she will take legal action against Walkers administration if they continue to violate her injunctions. 

"Now that I've made my earlier order as clear as it possibly can be, I must state that those who act in open and willful defiance of the court order place not only themselves at peril of sanctions, they also jeopardize the financial and the governmental stability of the state of Wisconsin," Sumi said.

[Cabin4]

Since when does a cicuit court judge have veto power of the state legislature? I would think (think) this would have to go to the WI State Supreme Court to over turn legislation. In the interim, Walker can apeal and as long as the apeal is in place the law would stand. Could be wrong.

She is not ruling on whether the law would be legal , she is ruling on if the Bill passed violated Wisconsin's open meetings law during passage. Before any law can go into affect the bill must be ruled on.  Additionally after she rules the law would still need to be published which it has not been because the Secretary honored her first injunction and did not publish it into law. Walkers admin is  definitely in violation.

She additional went on to state she will take legal action against Walkers administration if they continue to violate her injunctions.

I understand what she ruled on. I'm curiuos how a judge can take legal action against Walker when its the legislature that passed the law. Apparently this judge also thinks she is a political procecutor in addition to having veto power over the state legislature. Looks like we are in for some good fireworks.

[dukkillr]

Since when does a cicuit court judge have veto power of the state legislature? I would think (think) this would have to go to the WI State Supreme Court to over turn legislation. In the interim, Walker can apeal and as long as the apeal is in place the law would stand. Could be wrong.

She is not ruling on whether the law would be legal , she is ruling on if the Bill passed violated Wisconsin's open meetings law during passage. Before any law can go into affect the bill must be ruled on.  Additionally after she rules the law would still need to be published which it has not been because the Secretary honored her first injunction and did not publish it into law. Walkers admin is  definitely in violation.

She additional went on to state she will take legal action against Walkers administration if they continue to violate her injunctions.

I understand what she ruled on. I'm curiuos how a judge can take legal action against Walker when its the legislature that passed the law. Apparently this judge also thinks she is a political procecutor in addition to having veto power over the state legislature. Looks like we are in for some good fireworks.

I'm certainly no expert on Wisconsin legal procedure, but generally a challenge *must* begin at the district court level.

If indeed, open meeting laws were violated, or it appears they might have been, she did the only thing possible. 

If an existing law or even constitutional mandate says that you must do X before creating a new law, and you don't do X, what should happen?  I've written extensively about my thoughts on Unions, I'm certainly hoping the law passes, but I'm not about to throw the rule of law away because of my personal opinion on one bill. 

[Cabin4]

Wisconsin Senate Rule 93, which provides that for special session bills, “no notice of hearing before a committee shall be required other than posting on the legislative bulletin board,” was actually authored in 1983 by Democratic State Senator Fred Risser (D-Madison), with current Senator Tim Cullen (D-Janesville) the first co-author. The rule’s Assembly counterpart was also implemented in 1983, and supporters included Madison Representative Midge Miller, mother of current Senate Minority Leader Mark Miller (D-Monona).

Rest of the article
http://biggovernment.com/bhealy/2011/03/19/wisconsin-attorney-general-slams-judges-ruling-blocking-union-reform-promises-to-appeal/

[dukkillr]

Wisconsin Senate Rule 93, which provides that for special session bills, “no notice of hearing before a committee shall be required other than posting on the legislative bulletin board,” was actually authored in 1983 by Democratic State Senator Fred Risser (D-Madison), with current Senator Tim Cullen (D-Janesville) the first co-author. The rule’s Assembly counterpart was also implemented in 1983, and supporters included Madison Representative Midge Miller, mother of current Senate Minority Leader Mark Miller (D-Monona).

Good, then it should be an easy case.

[scootrd]

Looks like we are in for some good fireworks.

Yep , this legal wrangling is always messy and much fun to watch them poise ,thrust, and parry. 

[Cabin4]

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/opinion-zone/2011/03/wisconsin-judge-issues-ruling-blocking-law-opposed-government-emp

The judge should have recused herself:

"Wisconsin legal observers were “surprised last week when Madison-based judge Maryann Sumi issued a temporary restraining order blocking implementation of Gov. Scott Walker’s bill to limit public-sector collective bargaining.”  A law professor was “astonished” by the legally-baseless ruling, which didn’t even bother to “address the relevant laws and rules that demonstrate that what the legislature did was proper.”

The judge’s decision made no legal or logical sense, but did make political sense: the judge has to run for reelection in a liberal area, and her own son was a union organizer.   Her son is a liberal political operative who also happens to be a former lead field manager with the AFL-CIO and data manager for the SEIU State Council.  Moreover, the judge’s husband is a campaign donor to three of the Democratic lawmakers who fled the state to block the passage of the collective bargaining law, as well as a donor to Gov. Walker’s opponent."

[Buckskin]

Again TM7 is throwing out the class warfare bullet... Not everyone can be rich. Not everyone can be a manager.  Not everyone can drive a new car.  This inane socialistic view of yours is perplexing since you are retired and have your nest egg put away from selling your business.  Do you want the government to distribute your portion since you are better off than most Americans, or do you just want them to take from the ones better off than you?

[Buckskin]

Judge Sumi is and always has been a left wing judge (and there are plenty in Madison), she is just trying to make a name for herself on this hot topic.  This will be decided at the Wis Supreme Court and will be a slam dunk for the people of Wisconsin (ie. Walker).  She overstepped her place and I would be surprised if some "words" weren't sent her way by the court.

I have a feeling that the liberal whiners will challenge everything that the legislature passes this year.  They just can't play by the rules when they have the minority for some reason...  Good thing is the Supreme Court is fairly conservative voting 4-3 sometimes 5-2 in favor of the constitution...

Hopefully Prosser will beat this liberal whacko challenging him next week.  Although I'm sure Scoot is going to vote for her, because she made a living suing businesses, and has never sat on a bench outside of a park in her career...

[Cabin4]

TM,
What’s these questions about the "natural order"? It is the natural order. Not everyone can be a doctor, lawyer, CEO, Plumber, Carpenter, Engineer, ect, ect, ect. SO you do the best you can and move on. Some don’t. Some people will never achieve a higher level of income or comfortable place in sociecty, some will never try, some will and they will not succeed. That is their own destiny in their own control not anyone else’s. Besides, it does not have anything to do with the corrupt state unions in Wisconsin? Or is this the connection to stealing money from the tax payers to redistribute income to those who you believe deserve it more than others? So if you’re in a state union, you have the power to steal money from those not in unions (even those making min wage) because you can buy off the politicians with the union dues….

[Buckskin]

Top 13 All-Time Donors from '89 - '10 and where the money went...

Rank Organization                                                                   Total '89-'10      Dem %   Repub %
1 ActBlue                                                                                 $51,124,846       99%        0%     
2 AT&T Inc                                                                               $46,292,670       44%      55%   
3 American Fedn of State, County & Municipal Employees      $43,477,361       98%       1%     
4 National Assn of Realtors                                                     $38,721,441       49%      50%   
5 Goldman Sachs                                                                     $33,387,252       61%      37%   
6 American Assn for Justice                                                     $33,143,279        90%      8%     
7 Intl Brotherhood of Electrical Workers                                  $33,056,216        97%      2%     
8 National Education Assn                                                       $32,024,610        93%      6%     
9 Laborers Union                                                                     $30,292,050        92%      7%     
10 Teamsters Union                                                                $29,319,982        93%      6%     
11 Carpenters & Joiners Union                                                $29,265,808        89%     10%   
12 Service Employees International Union                              $29,140,232        95%      3%     
13 American Federation of Teachers                                       $28,733,991        98%      0%     


Well Scoot, I can see your worry!  You pull the money from the teachers and the fed/state/local unions and the donkeys would only have control of 8 of these left!!! Notice how the evil corportations are giving to both parties and the unions have a one tracked mind... Tell me again who is bought and paid for....

Time to even out the playing field imo.

[dukkillr]

TM7 if you want me to address individual points of your theory, please make individual points.  If you want to assign to me what you think my theory is, then obfuscate, I'm going to move on with my day. 

[Forestclimber]

Obfuscate.  Good word.  I had to look it up.

[Forestclimber]

"So if you’re in a state union, you have the power to steal money from those not in unions (even those making min wage) because you can buy off the politicians with the union dues…"



What is the difference between the "state unions" and all other unions?  They all pay dues to higher ups.  Why don't they go after all the unions?  If you are going to go after one union, go after them all.
Are they trying to end corruption, or save money?  Also have you ever seen the retirement benefits that State Representatives get?  Why don't they cut their own?

[Cabin4]

I agree on the union dues issue. No union memeber (state or private sector)should be forced to pay political action money to the union. But the big government liberals and socialists hate the idea of making this illegal. Because htey cannot compell thier memebers with common sence good ideas, they have to force them to pay the political action money by making it a requirement. Thats corrupt but you will find defenders of that practice here on this forum and of course the liberal politicians have all sorts of rediculous reasons why the union should be able to steal money from thier members.

[XD40SC]

  got to be a record for the most posts.

[scootrd]

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/opinion-zone/2011/03/wisconsin-judge-issues-ruling-blocking-law-opposed-government-emp

The judge should have recused herself:

"Wisconsin legal observers were “surprised last week when Madison-based judge Maryann Sumi issued a temporary restraining order blocking implementation of Gov. Scott Walker’s bill to limit public-sector collective bargaining.”  A law professor was “astonished” by the legally-baseless ruling, which didn’t even bother to “address the relevant laws and rules that demonstrate that what the legislature did was proper.”

The judge’s decision made no legal or logical sense, but did make political sense: the judge has to run for reelection in a liberal area, and her own son was a union organizer.   Her son is a liberal political operative who also happens to be a former lead field manager with the AFL-CIO and data manager for the SEIU State Council.  Moreover, the judge’s husband is a campaign donor to three of the Democratic lawmakers who fled the state to block the passage of the collective bargaining law, as well as a donor to Gov. Walker’s opponent."

If reporting is accurate , I must agree.

[scootrd]

Well Scoot, I can see your worry!  You pull the money from the teachers and the fed/state/local unions and the donkeys would only have control of 8 of these left!!! Notice how the evil corportations are giving to both parties and the unions have a one tracked mind... Tell me again who is bought and paid for....

Time to even out the playing field imo.

If your gonna play on the open secrets website learn how to use the tables and what they represent. Your list is an all time doners list.

Go look at Super PACS , Pacs, 527's , and outside spending by view points. (This is some of the dirty money)

US Chamber of Commerce    $32,851,997    Conservative           
American Action Network    $26,088,031    Conservative             
American Crossroads    $21,553,277    Conservative      
Crossroads Grassroots Policy Strategies    $17,122,446    Conservative             
Service Employees International Union    $15,795,194    Liberal           
American Fedn of St/Cnty/Munic Employees    $12,631,170    Liberal       
American Future Fund    $9,599,806    C    Conservative    
Americans for Job Security    $8,991,209 Conservative             
National Assn of Realtors    $8,890,737    Bi-Partisan       
National Education Assn    $8,746,556 Liberal       

In addition to "super PACs" and regular political action committees (which raise money via contributions capped at $5,000 per year), special interest groups have several other vehicles at their disposal to influence elections and policy as well. These include "527 organizations" which register with the Internal Revenue Service and 501(c) nonprofit operations, which may engage in political activities, as long as these activities do not become their primary purpose. 501(c) groups must also register with the IRS, but, unlike 527 organizations, are not required to publicly disclose their donors.

in 2010
190 Million  Conservative
92.9 Million Liberal

http://www.opensecrets.org/outsidespending/summ.php?cycle=2010&type=p&disp=O

and that's just disclosing groups here's non diclosing groups (501C)

120.9 million Conservative
15.9 million Liberal

http://www.opensecrets.org/outsidespending/summ.php?cycle=2010&chrt=V&disp=O&type=U

and I could go on ... but why don't you do some discovery learning using the proper tables and filters and understand which each represent so you gain the full picture.


FYI if you added up all the donations the Koch's alone have contributed and added it to your all time doners list it would equal approx 32 million to tea Party, 50 million to organizations to fight climate change legislation, 34 million to union busting organizations , 10 million on lobbying and political donations, .... But again they work behind the scenes so they do not have to disclose , private dirty money.

and one thing you are absoutely correct on is they want to eliminate the unions to eliminate the competiition and remain unchallenged

Democratic Party   $814,980,026   
Republican Party   $616,705,661   

[Cabin4]

Hey, lets be honest here. If big business money is "dirty" then all the rest from non-single USA citizen is dirty. That includes foriegn money, union, special interest and business. You can't have it both ways.

[scootrd]

Hey, lets be honest here. If big business money is "dirty" then all the rest from non-single USA citizen is dirty. That includes foriegn money, union, special interest and business. You can't have it both ways.

Yep I agree , I'll be honest ..

They need to overturn Citizens United 5-4 decision .

But what Buckskin and like would propose is unfettered , and monetarily unchallenged, and unchecked  access to our political process by Big corps, so as to squash the voice of dissension or opposition. That hardly seems democratic to me. And this is the True reason behind Wisconsin , (Fitzgerald finally admitted this in open forum the other day it was their intention all along). The workers are just caught up in the larger political play , and eliminating collective bargaining had nothing to do with Balancing Budgets.


WASHINGTON — Overruling two important precedents about the First Amendment rights of corporations, a bitterly divided Supreme Court ruled that the government may not ban political spending by corporations in candidate elections.

The ruling represented a sharp doctrinal shift, and it will have major political and practical consequences. Specialists in campaign finance law said they expected the decision to reshape the way elections were conducted.

The majority opinion did not disturb bans on direct contributions to candidates , but the two sides disagreed about whether independent expenditures came close to amounting to the same thing.

“The difference between selling a vote and selling access is a matter of degree, not kind,” Justice Stevens wrote. “And selling access is not qualitatively different from giving special preference to those who spent money on one’s behalf.”

Justice Kennedy responded that “by definition, an independent expenditure is political speech presented to the electorate that is not coordinated with a candidate.”

So now corporate America can pump billions into influencing campaigns under free speech through 501(c) and the like ,  and once unions are busted they will not be challenged . Been my whole point all along. loss of equilibrium. 
loss of labors voice.

I'll stand for balance,
I'll stand with Labor.

[Buckskin]

FYI if you added up all the donations the Koch's alone have contributed and added it to your all time doners list it would equal approx 32 million to tea Party, 50 million to organizations to fight climate change legislation, 34 million to union busting organizations , 10 million on lobbying and political donations, .... But again they work behind the scenes so they do not have to disclose , private dirty money.

And what, you think that all your union bud's are on the up and up and don't lobby and give money eslewhere?? You call yourself a moderate, yet I have never seen one word against the left (aside from your Dirty Harry sign off quote)... My hunch is your a liberal who doesn't like the idea of being a liberal so you soften your classification a bit to sooth your conscience...

and one thing you are absoutely correct on is they want to eliminate the unions to eliminate the competiition and remain unchallenged

Democratic Party   $814,980,026   
Republican Party   $616,705,661   

Well, looks like it could use a little evening out. $200 million advantage is nothing to sneeze about. Knock out the union influence and probably be an even table.  But that is the last thing liberals want...

[Buckskin]

"So now corporate America can pump billions into influencing campaigns under free speech through 501(c) and the like ,  and once unions are busted they will not be challenged . Been my whole point all along. loss of equilibrium."

What you really mean is loss of advantage... Bummer for you and your union brethren.

Although for those of you in the unions who are worth your salt, you will probably be compensated more than you are now.  For you people just moving along with the tide, time to pay the piper...

Modified by moderator.  Please do not derail the thread with insults.  I've warned everyone already.  It's nice to have a thread that can go 36 pages here.  If you can't communicate without the need to insult, please find somewhere else to post.  Feel free to PM me if you need details.