Democratic senators bail ship

[dukkillr]

You are right, there is no need for minimum wage.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The truth is that social harmony costs some money, and paying those worth $3.00 an hour more than twice that so they don't end up on the streets or in jail is a reasonable investment of society.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I continue to be confused

By what?  It seems straightforward to me.

seem in the first line you say there is no need for mininium wage and than you give an example where it is needed . Did I miss something?

Now I'm curious- what did I miss??

I honestly don't know if this is a serious question or some type or ridiculous "gotcha" thing you think you have.  The reason I don't understand is because you appear to have not actually read what I wrote.  In post #1019 I said:

You are right, there is no need for minimum wage.  Or rather, the minimum wage is not based in fundamental fairness.  There are people in the work force who are not worth $7.25 an hour.

And in post #1073 I said:

So while I think (and said previously) that the minimum wage is unfair, I'm not spending a great deal of time advocating it's total repeal.  The truth is that social harmony costs some money, and paying those worth $3.00 an hour more than twice that so they don't end up on the streets or in jail is a reasonable investment of society.  Plus a repeal is simply not going to happen. 

So, now that you can see each paragraph in their entirety I assume you are smart enough to see that
a) You did not provide the logical context to what I wrote, particularly in the first post (I'm sure that's a huge surprise to everyone).
b) I explained, in perfect clarity, my thoughts on the minimum wage. 

Still, I can only assume that since you've made the post, not once but twice, that you thought it was some great catch on your part.  Perhaps I should not allow the possiblity of confusion by leaving you to read and comprehend.  As such I'll spell it out completely by using nothing but my own words already written and available for you to have read previously.

the minimum wage is not based in fundamental fairness.  There are people in the work force who are not worth $7.25 an hour.

But,

So while I think (and said previously) that the minimum wage is unfair, I'm not spending a great deal of time advocating it's total repeal.

Further,

The truth is that social harmony costs some money, and paying those worth $3.00 an hour more than twice that so they don't end up on the streets or in jail is a reasonable investment of society.  Plus a repeal is simply not going to happen. 

If you need more context I suggest you reread post #1073

[ironglow]

 Scoot says;
  " Like a said corporate paid for puppet politicians."



   So Scoot, then by logical deduction if candidates supported by corporations are "paid corporate puppets", then obviously politicians supported by unions are "paid union puppets"..   So, realistically, We are seeing a contest between "paid puppets" !  May the best puppets win !!!

   I have worked both union and non-union and I don't understand your extreme reverence toward unions.  Yoe say "union busting" as if it were the lowest sin possible..yet you don't mention the companies over the years who were run out of business by unions..  Is not "turnabout fair play" ?

     I think a bit of circumspection is due here;

A) Bottom line..corporations are in business to generate as much profit and benefits as they can for their shareholders, pay their executives well, plus good leadership will look to the future well being of their corporation.  Corporations often do "charitable acts" and contribute to causes, primarily for public relations purposes.  Corporations usually act with capitalistic guidelines.

 B) Bottom line..unions are in business to generate as much profit and benefits as they can for their members, pay their executives well, plus good leadership will look to the future wellbeing of their union. Unions often do "charitable acts" and contribute toward to causes, primarily for public relations purposes.  Unions usually act with communistic guidelines.
     
  Often we hear claims from corporations being patriotic.. "public spirited..and other noble claims,... but A) is the bottom line.
     
 Often we hear cries from the unions about public service..it's for the children..and other noble claims,... but B) is the bottom line.



  Deducing all of this.. one wonders how you ever conjured up so much 'holy reverence' for "the union"...it is indeed strange..

[XD40SC]

You are right, there is no need for minimum wage.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The truth is that social harmony costs some money, and paying those worth $3.00 an hour more than twice that so they don't end up on the streets or in jail is a reasonable investment of society.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I continue to be confused

By what?  It seems straightforward to me.

seem in the first line you say there is no need for mininium wage and than you give an example where it is needed . Did I miss something?

Now I'm curious- what did I miss??

I honestly don't know if this is a serious question or some type or ridiculous "gotcha" thing you think you have.  The reason I don't understand is because you appear to have not actually read what I wrote.  In post #1019 I said:

You are right, there is no need for minimum wage.  Or rather, the minimum wage is not based in fundamental fairness.  There are people in the work force who are not worth $7.25 an hour.

And in post #1073 I said:

So while I think (and said previously) that the minimum wage is unfair, I'm not spending a great deal of time advocating it's total repeal.  The truth is that social harmony costs some money, and paying those worth $3.00 an hour more than twice that so they don't end up on the streets or in jail is a reasonable investment of society.  Plus a repeal is simply not going to happen. 

So, now that you can see each paragraph in their entirety I assume you are smart enough to see that
a) You did not provide the logical context to what I wrote, particularly in the first post (I'm sure that's a huge surprise to everyone).
b) I explained, in perfect clarity, my thoughts on the minimum wage. 

Still, I can only assume that since you've made the post, not once but twice, that you thought it was some great catch on your part.  Perhaps I should not allow the possiblity of confusion by leaving you to read and comprehend.  As such I'll spell it out completely by using nothing but my own words already written and available for you to have read previously.

the minimum wage is not based in fundamental fairness.  There are people in the work force who are not worth $7.25 an hour.

But,

So while I think (and said previously) that the minimum wage is unfair, I'm not spending a great deal of time advocating it's total repeal.

Further,

The truth is that social harmony costs some money, and paying those worth $3.00 an hour more than twice that so they don't end up on the streets or in jail is a reasonable investment of society.  Plus a repeal is simply not going to happen. 

If you need more context I suggest you reread post #1073

I was just asking a question for clarification- don't know why you get so defensive. Didn't you say you were a teacher at some point?

[scootrd]

   Deducing all of this.. one wonders how you ever conjured up so much 'holy reverence' for "the union"...it is indeed strange..

It's not holy reverence , unions are not without their problems , However , Corporations do not have the workers best interest in mind  as in Fidelity example above. Unions provide a collective voice for the workers, they negotiate for a fair livable wage, pensions and benefits for workers. and provide the counter balance to ensure the pendulum does not swing too far in the other direction. It all boils down to checks and balances.

Pretty black and white to me. However I must say I am a bit disappointed that's all you got out of the fidelity post. Fidelity is as stated just a microcosm of what going on at a national level. Corps screaming we are taxed to heavily , so we give them breaks and make up for the loss of revenue on the backs of the working class. They continue to not re-invest in America, job creation etc.. and chase huge profits overseas through cheep labor etc.. They want their cake and eat it too and we the taxpaying working class continue to foot the bill with no show on returns.   

ie: The U.S. economy is now twice as large as it was in 1980, but the real median wage has barely budged. Most of the benefits of economic growth have gone to the top. I do agree with TM7, the struggle is class warfare , it's an up and down struggle -  pitting Pro Big business against Pro middle class worker against each other.  - 
somewhere in the middle is where we need to strive for balance -  Just my view .

[ironglow]

  Two comparable entities..both after their own self-interests.  Many years ago the corporations were out of hand and needed curbing...now the situation has reversed !  The unions need cutting back now, but here will come a time in the future when they will no doubt be useful again.  What if the unions fail completely ?  New ones will form when really needed... but right now, they need to eat a little "humble pie"..

[scootrd]

  Two comparable entities..both after their own self-interests.  Many years ago the corporations were out of hand and needed curbing...now the situation has reversed !  The unions need cutting back now, but here will come a time in the future when they will no doubt be useful again.  What if the unions fail completely ?  New ones will form when really needed... but right now, they need to eat a little "humble pie"..

We just disagree , and that's ok. I respect your opinion , I just don't agree with your position. Right now the corporations, bailed out wall-streeters, Hedge funders, and large banks are the ones who need to eat the humble pie and start investing back in America. They cannot keep coming back to the working class well asking us to suck it up , cut our wages , reduce our benefits , and rob our pensions, and outsource our Jobs all in the name of profits for the top 1 or 2 %. We didn't create this economic/budget "crisis" as Walker or the capital hill folks call it .. they did .

Continuing to receive tax breaks and still outsourcing operations to overseas countries and Busting unions just so you can have unbridled, unchallenged and unmatched access to politicians to peddle your own corporate brand of political legislation  ...is .. well ..just disgusting. Where are the checks and balances there.

[powderman]

Well, the dem scum got back to Indiana a few days ago acting like it was bus as usual after being paid and refusing to do the job they were elected to do for SIX WEEKS. 6 wks of sitting on their worthless butts and collecting their bloated paychecks. Gosh, I wonder who footed the bill for all of this?? You can bet it wasn't motel 6, I'm sure they lived in style. Hope they all brought home plenty of bedbugs. POWDERMAN. 

[billy_56081]

And right there you have it why the liberals are such worthless scum. Getting paid for running away from their responsibilities. Well from working around union shops I will say that is the union way.

[Cabin4]

Business is not in business to perform charity work. If they don't need someone or something, yes they stop having it. What choice do they have? I curiuos how may of you anti business, big government advocates run your house hold finances like the government?

Government should run its finances like a business. Balanced budgets should be a requirement, not an option. Maybe we would not be $14trillion in debt growing at a rate of $1.3t per year and on track of the abyss. Or, I guess we can all let it ride and see if we can become the next country to go broke and experiance mass layoffs, sky rocketing interest rates and mass cuts in services.

[Cabin4]

http://alhambrainvestments.com/blog/2009/01/29/corporate-tax-rates-by-country-oecd/
USA and Japan have the highest corp tax rate in the world. So of course US companies are off-shoring operations so they can pay tax in other countries instead. The result, they pay tax, just not here. Our corp tax rate is forcing the off-shoring of jobs & operations. As a business, what would you rather pay, 40% in the USA or 30% in Germany? 10% is enough to make you competitive or not competitive, in business or out. In any case, should we not try to attract business to the US??

You big government tax & spend folks are pushing jobs out of this country and driving taxation to our economies.

[Dixie Dude]

Yep if we could cut spending AND taxes we could get back to what our country once was.  GREAT.  I think we should get rid of all income tax and corporate tax.  Have a national sales tax on all goods and services.  Double on imports.  Corporations buy a lot of things from equipment to computers.  So they would pay the sales tax on everything they buy and every service purchased.  People would also realise the tax every time they buy something and will complain if it gets too high.   With payroll deduction they really don't realise how much is taken out until they do their taxes once a year. 

[Buckskin]

http://alhambrainvestments.com/blog/2009/01/29/corporate-tax-rates-by-country-oecd/
USA and Japan have the highest corp tax rate in the world. So of course US companies are off-shoring operations so they can pay tax in other countries instead. The result, they pay tax, just not here. Our corp tax rate is forcing the off-shoring of jobs & operations. As a business, what would you rather pay, 40% in the USA or 30% in Germany? 10% is enough to make you competitive or not competitive, in business or out. In any case, should we not try to attract business to the US??

You big government tax & spend folks are pushing jobs out of this country and driving taxation to our economies.

That pretty much wraps it up in a nice package.  Corporations aren't leaving because they are mean, they would love to stay, but it's a world economy now.  It's nothing like even 20 years ago.  If unions and taxes (and yes lower wages elsewhere) drive business away, you can't blame the companies, they aren't a charity or a government entity (yet), they are in it for the money.... What would you like to do? Put a cap on how much money they can make??? Guess what, technology and advancement are driven by profit, not unions or taxes...

[Buckskin]

Scootrd in post# 1100:

Corporations are profiting from sales in their foreign operations, especially in China and India. But the most important key to the rise in corporate profits has been reduced costs, especially payrolls. The result has been fewer jobs and lower pay. The Great Recession accelerated trends that started three decades ago — outsourcing abroad, automating work, converting full-time jobs to temps and contracts, undermining unions, and getting wage and benefit concessions from remaining workers. The U.S. economy is now twice as large as it was in 1980, but the real median wage has barely budged. Most of the benefits of economic growth have gone to the top.

.
BINGO..!! This is what I mean by 'natural order' of things.....the above describes an 'artificial order' of things.  Some folks think an economy, or an advanced socio-economic system, can flourish when the bulk of capital is logjammed in fewer and fewer hands by de-regulation, tax shifting, etc,.  It cannot...it can only shrivel, especially in primarily militarized economies wherein there is less and less cosnsumer cycles.

The result is real income for the masses stagnating, as you said, while a few have run of with the picinic basket. Say what they want about unions, but basically they are the only force counterbalancing this process of 3rd worlding. Clearly, the oligarchy has no use for unions on there march....just listen to their rhetoric and actions..

...TM7
.

And you want unions to do what? Artificially inflate the value of a worker so the wealth can be spread around?  Robin Hood is a cute story, but unrealistic in the real world.  And how are the 90% or so getting by without unions in this country?  If they were so beneficial to our society wouldn't everyone demand to unionize? Or are the rest of us too stupid to realize whats in our best interest.  Or we realize that if you artificially inflate worker value, you automatically increase cost of product.  Walmart may be the evil empire to you, but they have happy employee's, give huge amounts of money to local charities and tax base to the community and give great value to their customers that they could never do if they had a union handcuffing their every move.

[Cabin4]

.Yes TM7, Listen to the political rhetoric coming from the likes of you, liberals in congress and the White House. I'm stating the reasons for the structural tax issue that’s driving tax revenues and jobs off shore. All some here can do is play the political game of blaming the evil corporations. As if that approach has worked! And while the obamanation and  his ilk are blaming the evil corporations, one of his Czars the King Jeffery of GE, the King of Corp Tax avoidance. He has managed to off-shore profits of sales to foreign tax entities outside the USA via various means to avoid our ridiculous corp tax code. GE paid tax, they just paid it to Germany, England, ect. Why, because they can, it is perfectly legal and while we can call them tax avoiders, Germany, Ireland and England love him.

 The real evil is the big government taxers are to blame for the off-shoring of jobs, manufacturing and profits that could be taxed here if our tax code was not so screwed up by people who think like you. People, business and corporations have a choice. Tax structure in a global economy must be competitive. If it is not, business will work to avoid it here because they have no choice. You think you can paint business into a corner by raising their tax, and they simply escape out the window. If they don't escape, they die and many are thanks to people who think like you. No experience in real business, no experience running a P&L operation in a global environment, no experience having to compete for business in foreign countries.

Ask yourself, why is it a country like Germany can have such a huge manufacturing base and export so much of the worlds capitol & heavy equipment? Low corp. tax. Just an example. Corporations are incented to bring operations there for this type of high technology or complex industry. 10% lower tax rate than the USA  is enough to make your business work or not work. 10% to a company that generates say $10b in revenue is $1b dollars that comes directly out of the bottom line of the P&L. Look at the balance sheet of one of these manufactures in Germany and take out your calculator. Add $1b in the cost of running the business line and I bet you just about anything, they will show a loss.

[myronman3]

i havent read this thread, and i aint going to.   but i have to say, 38 pages?  that has got to be a record. 

[scootrd]

Breaking News

The first nationally important election since November 2010 will be almost certainly occur this summer in multiple recall votes for Wisconsin state senators.

After local officials certify the signatures, a new election will be scheduled for Kapanke's seat. Today's news is sending shockwaves throughout Wisconsin, and it gives huge momentum to efforts in other Senate districts to gather recall signatures.

The first petition with the required signatures will be filed imminently, probably today (Friday), for a recall vote to replace Republican state Sen. Dan Kapanke.

"If current polls are correct, the Wisconsin Democrats will likely win a resounding triumph and the far right of the Republican party will suffer a resounding defeat that would return control of the Wisconsin Senate to Democrats, and send an earthquake political message that will reverberate throughout the nation".

[scootrd]

You big government tax & spend folks are pushing jobs out of this country and driving taxation to our economies.

Big Govt conservatives tax break the corps and continue to allow them to still offshore their operations (best of both worlds); then balance budgets on the backs of working class..

Guess what ?  - The well is dry.

And yes I said Big Govt Conservatives.

[Buckskin]

Breaking News

The first nationally important election since November 2010 will be almost certainly occur this summer in multiple recall votes for Wisconsin state senators.

After local officials certify the signatures, a new election will be scheduled for Kapanke's seat. Today's news is sending shockwaves throughout Wisconsin, and it gives huge momentum to efforts in other Senate districts to gather recall signatures.

The first petition with the required signatures will be filed imminently, probably today (Friday), for a recall vote to replace Republican state Sen. Dan Kapanke.

"If current polls are correct, the Wisconsin Democrats will likely win a resounding triumph and the far right of the Republican party will suffer a resounding defeat that would return control of the Wisconsin Senate to Democrats, and send an earthquake political message that will reverberate throughout the nation".

Possibly... Then again your collective bargaining will already be gone... Voter ID will be passed.  Conceal carry will be passed.  And the budget will be balanced.  We will still have the governor and assembly, so I'm not worried about it.  I don't think the liberals will collect 3 seats anyway...  By next year most of the nut jobs who have had their hackles raised will realize Walker was right and did the right thing even though it was hard to do...  The seeds of freedom have already been sown, and there's nothing the liberal hacks can do to prevent it's growth...

[Buckskin]

You big government tax & spend folks are pushing jobs out of this country and driving taxation to our economies.

Big Govt conservatives tax break the corps and continue to allow them to still offshore their operations (best of both worlds); then balance budgets on the backs of working class..

Guess what ?  - The well is dry.

And yes I said Big Govt Conservatives.

Yep the well is dry, and next step would be for the corporations to move all operations out of country, as well as all those wealthy people that you so dispise.  Then the libs will finally have their way, socialism by way of default...

[scootrd]

You big government tax & spend folks are pushing jobs out of this country and driving taxation to our economies.

Big Govt conservatives tax break the corps and continue to allow them to still offshore their operations (best of both worlds); then balance budgets on the backs of working class..

Guess what ?  - The well is dry.

And yes I said Big Govt Conservatives.

Yep the well is dry, and next step would be for the corporations to move all operations out of country, as well as all those wealthy people that you so dispise.  Then the libs will finally have their way, socialism by way of default...

There are huge differences between Jeffersonian republicans and far right conservative Republicans, and the far right conservatives just don't get it. 

Jeffersonian's believed in protecting the interests of the working classes and laborers.

[mirage1988]

Wonder what jefferson would have said about the welfare class and the parasite class?
Why don't you get it-this country is broke? Deficit spending is like paying your house payment with a credit card, then paying that bill with a credit card with a higher interest credit card then paying that bill with a payday loan (which is the stage our country is at right now).
 You think you can just keep milking the companies that actually contribute to GDP to fund the pensions of a bunch of crybabies, it has to stop.
 Almost everyone in the private sector has felt the impact of the recession, some more than others, teachers should feel it too!
I can't believe there is almost 40 pages of whining about this topic.

[XD40SC]

I'm tired about the whining of the length of this topic. If you don't like it, don't go there . Talk about whining.

[Cabin4]

You big government tax & spend folks are pushing jobs out of this country and driving taxation to our economies.

Big Govt conservatives tax break the corps and continue to allow them to still offshore their operations (best of both worlds); then balance budgets on the backs of working class..

Guess what ?  - The well is dry.

And yes I said Big Govt Conservatives.

Your lost Scoot. You don't understand the problem.

These corporations are paying federal tax. They are paying that federal tax in Germany, Ireland, ect. instead of the US. How can you raise the tax rate on a corpration that todays pays ZERO tax becasue they have ZERO US profits/revenue?? ZERO X ZERO = ZERO!  Raiase the tax rate all you want now? Those that pay zero will continue to pay zero and those that have not off-shored the process will off -shore the process because they you just forced them too!

Your not looking out for anyone. You and a few other here are just confused. If you want to fix the issue? lower the tax rate and make the USA a competitive tax place for business to come to. Business has a choice. Your approach is too tax the crape out of them ands scare them away. Is that how you create jobs??? Been working just fine, hey!!! Keep doing the same thing and expect a differant result.....
 

[Skookum]

If you get paid Over-Time? Thank the Unions.

If you get Paid Holidays? Thank the Unions.

If you who get paid Sick Leave? Thank the Unions.

If you who get Week Ends off? Thank the Unions.

If you get Injured on the Job, and get to keep your job? Thank the Unions.

If you get Paid Night Differential? Thank the Unions.

If you get a 10 or 15 minute break every two hours, and a Lunch Break? Thank the Unions.

If you get a Paid Vacation? Thank the Unions.

If your employer abides by Federal Labor Laws? Thank the Unions.

If you can read and write, add and subtract? Thank a Teacher.

When it all goes away, and you're living on $2.50 an hour. Thank Scott Walker and the Koch Brothers.

BTW, Abraham Lincoln once jumped out of a window in the Illinois state legislature to keep a bill from passing. The Wisconsin 14 were within state laws by going to Illinois.

 

[scootrd]

C4 I think your the one who is lost and doesn't understand the problem.

So we disagree

If you want to fix the issue? lower the tax rate and make the USA a competitive tax place for business to come to.

I don't disagree with lowering the tax rates . Close the loopholes stop the subsidies and make every corp contribute.

Business has a choice. Your approach is too tax the crape out of them ands scare them away.

This is not my approach, but stop giving them huge tax breaks with no return then try and balance budgets on the backs of the working class.  Fidelity was an excellent example of what I'm talking about.  Ge is another , Bank of America another and I could go on but I dont have time to list 2/3rds of the corporations in america that take and take and give nothing back. .

And stop the guise of eliminating collective bargaining as a way to balance budgets after giving corps these huge breaks which exacerbate the state deficits and create the budget "crises" as Walker calls it. The two may be very marginally related with regards to worker reduction in payroll and benefits (and it certainly wont make up for 117 million tax breaks). The true meaning is 2012 and usurping Labor campaign contributions plain and simple.   

Lets stop playing games here  -
Since nearly every state is required to balance its budget, states must offset the revenue loss from corporate tax cuts by removing an equal amount of spending from the state economy through cuts in state spending on services and/or tax increases. Plain and simple. This is economics 101 and you know it.

Give the tax break to your big business buddies , require no reinvestment in america jobs , allow them to continue to outsource (best of both worlds) and then hit the taxpayers. Walkers Tax cuts helped exacerbate this so called "crisis" and now he wants to balance on the backs of the working class. plain and simple.

[scootrd]

If your employer abides by Federal Labor Laws? Thank the Unions.

Except in Maine where yo-yo Gov Lepage has decided to strip child labor laws.

[scootrd]

Wonder what jefferson would have said about the welfare class and the parasite class?

So now public sector employees are the welfare class?  Well in retrospect that actually might become an accurate statement after all this stripping and balacing budgets on their backs is through.

[Buckskin]

Wonder what jefferson would have said about the welfare class and the parasite class?

So now public sector employees are the welfare class?  Well in retrospect that actually might become an accurate statement after all this stripping and balacing budgets on their backs is through.

Actually I think the "and" in there was meant to separate the classes....

There you go with the scare tactics again.  Like I've said before in a year all will be forgotten, public sector will realize that Walkers demands were reasonable and the union thugs will have to go to Jersey and try and get a job from Guido if they want to continue their path of thuggery...

[Skookum]

If your employer abides by Federal Labor Laws? Thank the Unions.

Except in Maine where yo-yo Gov Lepage has decided to strip child labor laws.

Well now that the TP has shown it's hand, and people see what they're all about. They will all go the way of the Chicken powered Studebaker. I like what Snyder is doing in Michigan. If he deems, he can replace your entire duely elected city gov't with a corporate flunky of his mentor's choice. So much for the Constitution... I've been hearing all about how the TP claims they're losing their freedom, rights and liberty. I guess they've decided if Obama won't do it, they'll take them away on their own. Just the ones they don't believe in, that is.

[scootrd]

I like what Snyder is doing in Michigan. If he deems, he can replace your entire duely elected city gov't with a corporate flunky of his mentor's choice. So much for the Constitution.

Yep another farr right wing nut , as I stated earlier,  The moderate republicans have been hijacked by the radicals. No room for moderates in the tent anymore ( the good news is they can purchase a smaller tent now) The radicals claim   claim they want small Govt , but they are just the opposite. They want intrusive Govt and total control in all aspects of our lives. No room for moderates on either side of the isle anymore.