Lifting devices

[GLS]

Just took this photo this week.  Good example of 'what is it for?'

[Cat Whisperer]

Good one.

Note also the distinct shape on the breech end of the Rodman's - huge cannons.

[Cannoneer]

Note also the distinct shape on the breech end of the Rodman's - huge cannons.

CW,
T.J. Rodman designed the 'button cascabel' for his huge Columbiads because the traditional knob form couldn't handle the weight of lifting the gun. The rope was fit in the groove between the button and the breech face when the cannon was hoisted.

[seacoastartillery]

 Gerald,   Where did you take that pic of the that Garrison Gin lifting the gun?  Looks a little like Fort Moultrie near Charleston, SC, with those two 15" Rodman's in the background, but I don't remember the sod-covered  traverse being that high.
 
In this photo you can see I have my left hand on the mushroom or button head of a 10" Rodman Gun at Fort Knox in Maine.  You can easily see that the 'Neck' of this style Cascabel is very large in diameter and would not be fragile during a lift.




The rear of the same cannon showing the broad surface of the 'Knob' with it's elevation 'sockets' which are found on all but one Rodman Gun.




This Rodman Gun is that exception.  Cast in 1860, this Rodman displays the old 'Ratchets'.  This gun was given a nickname in 1862 of a prominent figure in the Civil War not liked too much in the South.  It is located on the grounds of one of only four seacoast forts not taken over by the Confederacy, but located in a, once Confederate, state.




Tracy and Mike

[GLS]

Yes, That picture was from Fort Moultrie, Sullivan's Island S.C.  I was in Charleston for a meeting last week and took time to go out and take photos of all the pre 1900 cannons and mortars I remember in the area.  I lived in Charleston for ten years a while back and used to spend a lot of time at the forts.  I took a lot of cannon/mortar photos at the Battery, Fort Sumpter and Fort Sullivan.  Let me know if there is any particular veiw you might be interexted in.

[seacoastartillery]

    GLS, those are some very nice pictures of Fort Moultrie.  We like gun lifting machines almost as much as the artillery being lifted.  Someday we will do a posting with all of them used by the U.S. Army to lift siege and seacoast guns in the 1800s.  The Garrison Gin you pictured is capable of lifting 17,000 lbs.  Sometimes they anchored the top of the tripod with five or six heavy ropes and leaned it out over the Parade Ground edge of the terraplein to hoist heavy ordnance up to the third tier of a seacoast fort.  In order to lift the big 7" Treble-Banded Brooke Rifle onto it's large, seacoast barbette mount at Battery Marion, 200 yards from Fort Moultrie down the beech toward Battery Bee, the Confederate heavy artillerymen would have used two Garrison Gins to lift the 21,290 lb. tube above the platform while the chassis, then the upper carriage was hauled into place by well directed mule teams.

    Our interest in your last picture might be a result of our extensive study of Charleston Harbor Heavy Artillery defenses put in place by the little Creole, Confederate General P.T. Beauregard, a man of many, many talents.  The photo of the two 15" Rodman muzzles peeking over the low embrasure shows how Army Major Robert Anderson must have seen Fort Moultrie's curtain walls in the autumn of 1860 when he took over that fort's command to prepare it for the possibility of war.  He had only 70 men, but he saw the ditches filled with sand, rotting gun carriages and numerous other defects at Moutrie and put them to work immediately digging the sand out of the forts ditches, thus restoring the 15 to 20 foot high walls.  Look at that picture.  Do you think that a wall of 7or 8 feet is an effective barrier against the highly motivated infantrymen of the South Carolina militias?

    Gerald,  Do you have any pics of 'artillery row' at Fort Moultrie?  We have only old chemical photos of the Treble-Banded Brooke.  No matter how good your scan is, it is still fuzzy compared to an in-focus digital photo.

Tracy & Mike

[Cannoneer]

In this photo you can see I have my left hand on the mushroom or button head of a 10" Rodman Gun at Fort Knox in Maine.  You can easily see that the 'Neck' of this style Cascabel is very large in diameter and would not be fragile during a lift.




The rear of the same cannon showing the broad surface of the 'Knob' with it's elevation 'sockets' which are found on all but one Rodman Gun.




This Rodman Gun is that exception.  Cast in 1860, this Rodman displays the old 'Ratchets'.  This gun was given a nickname in 1862 of a prominent figure in the Civil War not liked too much in the South.  It is located on the grounds of one of only four seacoast forts not taken over by the Confederacy, but located in a, once Confederate, state.




Tracy and Mike

M&T,
What makes you think that the 15-inch Rodman "Lincoln" gun at Ft. Monroe is the only Rodman gun with elevating ratchets extant?

[seacoastartillery]

     The subject of this thread has been answered more than adequately.  We brought up Rodman Guns in relation to the location of two at Fort Moultrie and the prototype at Fort Monroe.  So much interesting information about Thomas Rodman, the guns he designed, his unique "Water-Core" bore cooling process and the Rodman gun's long history of service (almost 50 years) exists that this subject should really have it's own thread.

    We will definitively answer Boom J.'s pointed question and start the new thread at the zenith of the Rodman gun's development, the 15-inch.

Look for 'All Things Rodman'.

Mike and Tracy

[Double D]

The split function has not been working for a while and now is.   This topic is now lifting devices.  If you wish to start a discussion on center core cooling or all things Rodman open a new topic.

Here's  Gilmores  Mortar crew putting a lifting device to work to lift am 8 inch mortar. 




They had an alternate use,  at  Fort Shenandoah at least.

[Cannoneer]

     The subject of this thread has been answered more than adequately.  We brought up Rodman Guns in relation to the location of two at Fort Moultrie and the prototype at Fort Monroe.  So much interesting information about Thomas Rodman, the guns he designed, his unique "Water-Core" bore cooling process and the Rodman gun's long history of service (almost 50 years) exists that this subject should really have it's own thread.

    We will definitively answer Boom J.'s pointed question and start the new thread at the zenith of the Rodman gun's development, the 15-inch.

Look for 'All Things Rodman'.

Mike and Tracy

Seacoast fellas,
While I certainly didn’t wish for my query to cause any vexation (I didn’t think the question was all that bayonet-like myself ); if the end result turns out to be a fine new Rodman thread, then I’ll be just as happy as a clam at high tide.
As a matter of fact, I’ve just reviewed the whole thread, and I’ll tell you who veered (and I mean veeeeered) onto the subject of Rodman; it was none other than that great veerer himself: CW!
OK, back to the upcoming Rodman topic: Just in case there’s a “Chumlee” lurking on the board; this will be the Thomas Jackson variety of Rodman we will be discussing, not Dennis.

Now, back to lifting devices.

[Double D]

So let me get this right, you are lifting the title drifter onto Tim...be gentle, this has been a tough month for him.

[Cannoneer]

Hey, he's got broad shoulders, and he's got to carry the weight, because he's the one that turned the wheel and took the detour that led us to Mr. Rodman.
I figure that Tim was just sitting there at home, and got bored with all this talk about these old run of the mill knob-like cascabels, so he just had to bring up T.J. Rodman's fantastic, huge, pizza pie lookin' cascabel to liven things up a bit. 

[Cat Whisperer]

...
As a matter of fact, I’ve just reviewed the whole thread, and I’ll tell you who veered (and I mean veeeeered) onto the subject of Rodman; it was none other than that great veerer himself: CW!
...

Thank you, thank you, thank you.  Credit were credit is due!     It is rare (if at all) that I would chastise someone for being off-topic.  (As a mater of fact, that issue was once stated that it was not so great an issue on this board IN OUR RULES.)

[Cat Whisperer]

So let me get this right, you are lifting the title drifter onto Tim...be gentle, this has been a tough month for him.

Tough month?  Are you referring to the colonsocopy this morning or when a friend whom I admire and respect publicly called me a Bozo?     (SERIOUSLY OFF TOPIC, but the redish glow [in the same place] will diminsh with time.)  What was this topic on?  Oh, yea, lifting devices - whoopie cussions!

Were gin-poles used with cannons?  I seem to recall someone posting this week about that - do we have any pictures?

Has anyone built one?

I've seen some of the MASSIVE wooden crains used in granite quaries for lifting HUGE blocks of granite - impressive for 'just' wood and rope/cable.

[Double D]

...
As a matter of fact, I’ve just reviewed the whole thread, and I’ll tell you who veered (and I mean veeeeered) onto the subject of Rodman; it was none other than that great veerer himself: CW!
...

Thank you, thank you, thank you.  Credit were credit is due!     It is rare (if at all) that I would chastise someone for being off-topic.  (As a mater of fact, that issue was once stated that it was not so great an issue on this board IN OUR RULES.)

It's one thing to drift topic, no problem.  But to hide one very interesting topic inside another very interesting topic that's just not right and if the soft ware in this board will be split out and the hidden topic  given it out life....besudes it help run the topic count on our forum.

[Cannoneer]

Hey, I happen to like Bozo! As to what topic this thread is on now; I believe it's lifting devices, but it used to be about cascabels. Speaking of cascabels: You were never off topic, you were merely exploring a different aspect of the same topic. Speaking about being off topic: In my rarely solicited opinion, there are times when the new direction a topic takes, actually results in a more interesting thread. Now I forgot why I really started this post; oh yeah, lifting devices!

A scale model CW era gin. Both the fine model and the photos are by Ed, and I uploaded the pics from jAlbum.net

[Cat Whisperer]

Nice work! 

 

I've used a gin-pole to raise TALL antennas.  Long pole for leverage, short to do the heavy lifting.  Two guy-wires to postion the antenna as it goes up.

[seacoastartillery]

I've seen some of the MASSIVE wooden cranes used in granite quarries for lifting HUGE blocks of granite - impressive for 'just' wood and rope/cable. 

     Mike and I visited the Rock of Ages Granite Quarry in 2007.  We wanted to see what a really big granite quarry looked like and also see where one of our surface plates came from.  It's the one that supports the Coordinate Measuring Machine we have and weighs about 2,000 lbs.  The people there were very friendly and told us that during WWII the workers made anti-submarine nets by twisting and weaving the mild steel 3/16" rods with their hands!  They also told us about a forest of wooden cranes in the late 1800s and early 1900s.  Their museum had some very interesting artifacts.  There was a photo of one paper mill roller that was almost 40 feet long, 2 feet in dia. and had a small hole all the way through for a steel cable that would keep the roller straight when stressed to some terrific tension.  We saw a 20 ton block being lifted, but it was so far away that our 6X zoom could not get it close enough using the old camera.

Tracy and Mike


Wooden cranes model in the Rock of Ages Museum.




What the working pit looked like in 2007.

[Cat Whisperer]

THOSE are the ones - first saw them back in '57 or so - they were all wood then. 

My sister & husband live 20 miles north of there (a 45 minute drive) in S. Woodbury.  The house has granite foundation and front steps that was cut from granite on the property.  About as far as the horizon in the pix, we can see the airport beacon from there.

From the satelite: 44.155631,-72.479797

Knew a few quarymen - one who cut granite (in the hole) with a kerosene-oxygen tourch.  Just like cutting steel - get it hot, feed it O2.

As long as were slightly off topic, one of the OLD ways of cutting granite (it took time) was to drill small holes in a row (easy) and fill with water - then hammer in wood - the water would make it swell and crack the block aling the hole-line.


 

[Cannoneer]

Here's a link to a book on Napoleonic artillery that contains an interesting sketch done from life by a British cadet in the early 1800's.

"A very fine illustration of the 13-inch mortar being loaded onto a boat by means of sheer legs and block and tackle. From an early 19th-century cadet notebook drawn at Woolwich."

http://books.google.com/books?id=63Uu-3nZVOgC&pg=PT13&lpg=PT13&dq

[Zulu]

Boom J,
What a very cool website.  Thanks for taking the time to share this with us.
Zulu

[Cat Whisperer]

Here's a link to a book on Napoleonic artillery that contains an interesting sketch done from life by a British cadet in the early 1800's.

"A very fine illustration of the 13-inch mortar being loaded onto a boat by means of sheer legs and block and tackle. From an early 19th-century cadet notebook drawn at Woolwich."

http://books.google.com/books?id=63Uu-3nZVOgC&pg=PT13&lpg=PT13&dq

(Good illustration, reference)

The boat looks a little small, and I sure wouldn't want to drop it!

[Cannoneer]

Cat,
I agree, it doesn't seem like it would be a very prudent idea to try and take that boat carrying a 13-incher in it on any kind of prolonged voyage. I'm guessing that it was a ship's boat meant to convey the mortar back to an anchored ship where it would be brought onboard. Maybe the sketch represents an exercise in removing an expeditionary forces ordnance from a foreign coast.



A watercolor of a Civil War scene with a seacoast gun.



Drawing of French artillerymen mounting a mortar on its bed.

[seacoastartillery]

     So far, all of the lifting devices having the garrison gin style have been tripods.  The advantages over a gin with more than three legs goes way back to the "Milking Stool" principle, that of the device being steady on surfaces which are not perfectly flat.
In California we found the exception to the rule at Sutter's Fort in Sacramento.  This fort has four bastions at the corners of an irregular rectangle.  In one bastion a lifting gin was set up and shown in the process of mounting a tube on a 4-truck carriage which can only be described as a fortress carriage, having a center of gravity which is too high to be a naval type 4-truck.  This lifting gin is smaller than other garrison gins we have seen, but is ample for lifting the smaller artillery of the far west common in the 1830s, 40s, and 50s.  The artillery assembled by the fort's owners came from a variety of places, but the Russian field artillery and naval  artillery of that era was well represented, because the Russians owned tracts of land and several forts in California at that time.

The pics from our visit in 2009, are displayed below,

Mike and Tracy





Two carronades flank the Sally Port of this fort with it's large, heavy, wooden doors.  Note the spikes to repel invaders.




The 4-pole gin with the winding drum, the capstan and the ratchet on the right side of the drum.




The upper area of the gin showing the blocks, the shears, the tackle and the end hardware which holds everything together.




A view of the lower gin showing the rope craft used to secure the tube.  Also, it looks like a second ratchet is located at the left side of the winding drum.  That feature would be good insurance.




The guns and equipment of a bastion.  A seacoast style water bucket is there and carriages of different heights.




One of the high 4-truck carriages used to get the tube up to the center of the high embrasures.




The bastion showing the position of the embrasures for cannon.  Note the lack of safe, 'dead space' except directly below the openings.  The only place for a scaling ladder would be at the bastions corner, not the most secure place for a tall ladder.




Unless the defenders are throwing 4 pdr. or 6 pdr. fused shells at you, the space below the embrasures is fairly safe.  The old infantryman is always judging a fort's worth based on how easy it would be to defeat it due to architecture or armament.




 

[Cannoneer]

Let's not forget what may be the most famous representation of an ordnance lifting device; Leonardo da Vinci's drawing of a huge gin lifting a huge bombard in the yard of a rennaissance era cannon foundry.