Author Topic: Revised Question: Best .30 Caliber Contender Cartridge? (Read 3025 times)

antlery · « **on:** February 21, 2011, 06:53:28 AM »

Sorry, did not know about the "censored word" rule....Anyway, what is the best .30 Caliber cartridge for use in a Contender Carbine? By best, I mean most useful velocity at legitimate pressure levels, ease of reloading, etc. I have my own ideas, but would like to hear others who have had experience with some of them. Like I originally said, I am interested in getting a Carbine length barrel and am doing some research before spending the big green.

Ladobe · « **Reply #1 on:** February 21, 2011, 08:54:50 AM »

GBO Admin does not allow discussions that include the person or his products you are asking about, period. So you'll be way ahead to go ask your question elsewhere pard. If you have any questions concerning this rule beyond that I'd suggest you PM Admin themselves for your answers. Thanks.

Curtis · « **Reply #2 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:17:06 AM »

I only have two carbine barrels: 17 rem and 22lr, but if I were considering a 30 caliber carbine it would be either a 30-30 AI or 309 JDJ. Which one would depend entirely on which I ran across a good used deal on, preferrably including dies and extras.

That being said, the pros and cons as I see them between the two: 30-30 AI has the advantage of being able to use regular 30-30 ammo in a pinch so your hunt is not over if you happen to leave your specialty ammo at home. 309 JDJ gets the nod for more performanc of course. Other considerations might hinge around ease of brass forming if that is a factor. I do not know the steps for forming the 309 but for the 30-30 AI you fireform a standard 30-30 and it's done. Honestly the fun has gone out of forming brass for me so I'd likely just buy the brass in either one.

Curtis

antlery · « **Reply #3 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:26:26 AM »

Yeah, I was wondering about the 309 JDJ too. I wonder how difficult it is to form the brass for it. If I am not mistaken, it is formed from 444 marlin brass. Maybe someone could steer me in the right direction on that one. Another one I heard about is the 30GNR (Gary Reeder version, hope he is not banned) that is an even more Improved version of the 30-30. Like to hear abou that one too.

Curtis · « **Reply #4 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:41:46 AM »

Further reading on my part reveals to me that the 309 JDJ requires 444 brass be run into a 308 winchester die just enough to close the Contender's action when headspaced on the shoulder. A 90% charge is then used to fire form. 309 JDJ dies are used thereafter.

You can't use the 309 JDJ die for brass forming because of the steep shoulder angle.

Curtis

alan in ga · « **Reply #5 on:** February 21, 2011, 04:49:02 PM »

30/30 Ackley Improved.

sweetwyominghome · « **Reply #6 on:** February 21, 2011, 08:25:54 PM »

From a 24" barrel, the 30-30 AI will approach 2600 fps with 150 grain bullets and 2800 fps with 125s -- and it will do so with less than 40 grains of powder. It is an exceptionally balanced and efficient cartridge and allows quite a bit of versatility with the Contender format.

The 309 JDJ will afford more horsepower, but it will come at the expense of more recoil, more muzzle blast and the burning of another 10-15 grains of powder.

The 30-30 AI can be very accurate as well. The bobcat below was taken at 297 yards using 38.5 grains of Varget and the 150 grain Ballistic Silvertip. The hog in the unmarked photo was killed with a single shot from 280 yards using the 150 grain Accubond ahead of 38 grains of Varget.

alan in ga · « **Reply #7 on:** February 22, 2011, 02:35:10 AM »

Guess I have to confess, my 30/30 Ackley Improved was a Handi Rifle! It shot extremely well unless you heated it up with 5 shots. First 3 shots with 3031/150 gr Nosler BT's would touch at 100 yards, and then shot #4 and #5 would spiral out of the group by several inches. I attributed this to the tight barrel face to lug that had no where to go if that section of the barrel warmed up and expanded.
NICE T/C rig there......I knew there was a reason I kept my dies after selling my Super 14 barrel in 30/30 Ack Imp~!

Hopalong7 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 22, 2011, 03:28:29 AM »

FWIW, my 30-30AI 309JDJ comparison is in 14" pistol barrels, but it's still somewhat relative. I've tried my best to get rid of one or the other, but like them both enough that I just don't seem to be able to do it. Yes, the 309 has more HP, also more recoil, more muzzle blast and burns more powder. For bullet weights 150gr and under, I see no advantage at all to the 309, in fact due to the cost of powder, a slight dissadvantage. But, if you're looking for a long range "slammer" with heavy(165, 180, 200gr)bullets, the 309JDJ is the train you need to ride. Also, I think you'll find the 309 barrel, dies and brass a little more expensive. BTW, Curtis has the 309 brass forming exactly right(one fairly simple step and one common die more complicated than 30-30AI brass forming).
Walt

Ladobe · « **Reply #9 on:** February 22, 2011, 06:17:24 AM »

Similar to Walt in that all my TC 30's over the years have been pistolas. The old standby 30-30 Win's, 2 or 3 309JDJ's, a 30 M1 Carbine, couple of 30 Herrett and a 30 Alaskan Bower that I can remember off hand. Never did the 30-30AI as I had the first 309 early on that was my jump up from the 30-30. All time favorite TC 30's for me were the 309's and 30AB. Last 30 I wanted for my Contenders was a 30 Merrill on the 225 Win case, but never could get any support from Jim Rock/RPM to have one built (in fact Rock was a total jerk).

IMO what you get out of your TC's equates to a what you put into them kind of thing. Some want the extras, some don't. Doesn't matter which side you run because everybody is doing what they feel they want or need and that makes it right for them. As one from the "dark side" though, I never considered the wildcats enough more trouble or expense to give up what they had to offer. Guess that's why I had so many for my TC's over the years. An extra step or three or a lot more, a little more powder or expense... so what? Shooting, hunting and ADC were right at the top of my main interests all my life.

The 30-30AI has some real nice advantages though for the NWC.

Nice pics SWH. Thanks.

Larry

sweetwyominghome · « **Reply #10 on:** February 22, 2011, 07:06:36 AM »

Ladobe wrote: "Doesn't matter which side you run because everybody is doing what they feel they want or need and that makes it right for them. "

Very well stated, Larry. I couldn't agree more.

When I was younger and before some health issues reared their ugly heads, the inconvenience and/or extra steps of some of the more unique wildcats didn't slow me down at all -- and in fact I welcomed the challenges and enjoyed the rewards. But now, simpler often seems the best route to take, particularly in the name of minimal forming and infrequent trimming (severe pain in the hands makes those steps extremely difficult and almost impossible at times).

And perhaps that's why the 7mm Bullberry and 30-30 AI have become my go-to rounds as of late. With the 7mm BB, I have lots of brass from more than a decade of shooting it, and one batch has now seen either 24 or 25 firings with only 3 trim sessions (other than the initial squaring up of the new brass). The 30-30 AI is just as reloader-friendly: load up standard 30-30 rounds, fire them...and out pops the Ackley-configured casing, which will last indefinitely (without annealing!) and rarely needs any tedious maintenence such as trimming.

antlery · « **Reply #11 on:** February 22, 2011, 07:17:04 AM »

I am liking the sound of the 30-30 AI, especially since I already have a bunch of brass from my Super 14 30-30. Would you mind telling me who made your barrel, since at 24"" it probably is a custom barrel?

sweetwyominghome · « **Reply #12 on:** February 22, 2011, 08:31:11 AM »

My 24" blued barrel is a TC Custom Shop product. The 23" stainless is a special run factory made for either Ed's or MidwayUSA.

To get the best brass life, however, starting with new cases is what I recommend.

skarke · « **Reply #13 on:** February 22, 2011, 08:40:17 AM »

+ a wholce lot of others on

the 3030 ai

alan in ga · « **Reply #14 on:** February 22, 2011, 09:28:16 AM »

You guys need to understand something: I like the 30/30 Winchester in plain factory form, too! So many people,[me included] have enjoyed fabulous and wonderful cartridges. After building a few "Oh WOW" rifles, I rediscovered some 'good ol' cartridges that are so often overlooked. I could give several examples but for typing's sake will just toss one out- a Marlin 336RC made in the late 50's or early 1960s. It was in 30/30 Win. A customer GAVE it to me after I offered to BUY it. Took it home, mounted a scope on it, and it shot 1MOA 5 shot groups at 100 yards. I used to take it to the range and while shooting my other 'oh wow' rifles, lay it in the open HOPING someone would say something derogatory about the ol' lever gun and ANYTHING about how they were just 'deer rifles for short range' : )
It was fun to say "well, let's see what it will do" and then outshoot their 'OH WOW' engine turned bolt action wonder cannon : ))))....ok, maybe not always but often enough for smiles!
Oh I love to build and shoot wonder rifles but have discovered that some factory "plain Jane" rifles and cartridges were excellent as they are!
I do like the Ackley Improved 30/30 because I think the case is 'purtty',,,AND I believe the claim that is puts less force on the action. I don't try to make a .308 Win or .300 Win Mag out of it, I've had those in other rifles. Just power it up to where it likes [not much over factory 30/30 Win] and enjoy it as a rimmed round in a nice single shot like the Contender, rifle or pistol. AND, so many folks toss once fired NEW cases onto the ground just before deer season!

Ladobe · « **Reply #15 on:** February 22, 2011, 04:34:16 PM »

ALan,
I've known you for a lot of years, so I know you are often stuck in a rut (just tossing boise de vache at you pard).

When it comes to the trusty old 30-30 I am too. I was born and raised on a high mountain ranch in the Rockies, where the standard issue saddle gun was a Winchester carbine (mostly 32 WS, 38-55 and 30-30). They were just tools, but tools used to shoot anything from pine hens for the cook pot to Wooly Mammoths. Well, while I feel that old more often than not now days, not the later. But everything else that called the Rockies their home. That was mainly because more often then not if you didn't have one of the Winchester 1890's, 1903's or 1906's with you that's what you had with you doing ranch chores and for most hunting. A "30 Gun" to me is a Winchester carbine and no other (the "rut" thing). So getting Contender barrels in the Old 30 was breaking out of the mold for me, and it took shooting IHMSA to shake those old cobwebs out. Problem is I then got a 30 Alaskan Bower for silhouettes that was just too much fun to bother with the Old 30's again, and long before had stepped up to the 309JDJ to replace it for any medium game hunting. Never had any TC 30's in carbine/rifle length though, my handgun hunting got more serious when the TC's came out, so except for a few wildcat carbines for the longest range digger fields (and the 17HMR) all my TC barrels were pistols and many of them wildcats along with the majority of my semi/custom rifles. I think the last time I shot my first 30 Gun (Win 94 I still have) was in the 80's, and that was to take a sharptail for the cook pot on a mule deer hunt (with a 270 Win). The TC 30-30's last time probably just before the new millennium. Yep, I know about ruts.

Dezynco · « **Reply #16 on:** February 23, 2011, 01:48:02 AM »

Sorry Antlery about the "censored words". I hope we all know that you didn't realize that the name and products are not supposed to be discussed here. I found out the same way that you did. The "censored words" rule does not specifically say what the "censored words" are, and it's not mentioned in the top of this particular discussion forum. When I read the rules, I assumed that the moderators meant for us not to use obscene language. I suppose you just have to bumble across the censored word to find out what it is as far as I can tell.

Back to the original post....

It would be hard to beat the good old 30-30 for simplicity, versatility and effectiveness. The 30-30 really shines in a single shot platform where you can load "pointy" bullets that really improve it's ballistics. My 30-30 Super 14 is one of the most accurate barrels that I own, even counting several of my rifles!

The only way you can truly beat the 30-30 is with a 30-30 AI because of the simplicity of the brass forming process. Of course there are the other wildcats, but they all take more time and care to produce the brass. Yes they will outperform both the 30-30 and the AI, but you said you were looking for simple and effective.

alan in ga · « **Reply #17 on:** February 23, 2011, 02:27:48 AM »

and to let you all know how "cheap" I can be, I used Lee standard .308 Win dies to reload my 30/30 Ackley cases

Works fine. Resizes just the upper neck. I never DID have to buy 30/30 Ackley Imp. dies for that accurate old Handi rifle. I figured that eventually I would have to have a die that would Full Length resize cases that had been fired several times, but the 30/30 Ackley Improved chamber always kept taking those neck sized only cases loaded to the hilt with 150 gr bullets and 3031 powder, even after 7 firings!
Somewhere, somehow I've aquired a set of Lee 30/30 Ackley Imp dies and am keeping them "just in case" a rifle barrel 'shows up' for my Contender : )

Latest rut: Never had a 25/35 Win [or the improved version] and since I enjoy my .250 Savage Ackley Improved bolt rifle, I've thought about a rifle barrel for the Contender G2 in that chamber. Not a bad rut to be in!

nomosendero · « **Reply #18 on:** February 23, 2011, 03:51:50 PM »

I stopped at 30-30AI for my Super14 simply because it is effective out to the max yardage that I will use a handgun. I get 2400+ with the 150BT. I have rifles for over 400yd. stuff.

I have no doubt you could get the velocities that sweetwyominghome said with a 24" tube & agree with the efficiency of the cartridge.

Camp Cook · « **Reply #19 on:** February 24, 2011, 01:45:05 AM »

I have experience with the 308X444 in my 21" factory tapered s/s Contender carbine rechambered from 30-30 barrel it was rechambered by he that cannot be mentioned I just take 308 Win dies resize the 444 brass in one pass, trim to length and I am good to load there is no fire forming involved .

I load 150gr jacketed bullets -> 2620fps shot my largest mule deer @ 210 yards with this barrel loaded 150gr CoreLoks.

Would this be the cartridge I would stay with if I were to do it again it is good but now that I have experience with the 375JDJ I would be very tempted to go with the 309JDJ and the more I read about the 30-30 AI the more I would look into it.

The bonus with the 308X444 is you use standard 308 Win dies I bought a used set of older RCBS dies for $15...

nomosendero · « **Reply #20 on:** February 25, 2011, 05:59:56 AM »

CC, that sure is a nice Mule deer!!

Camp Cook · « **Reply #21 on:** March 02, 2011, 12:37:36 PM »

Thanks but it was the toughest deer meat I have ever had...

Drugstore Cowboy · « **Reply #22 on:** March 17, 2011, 06:55:06 PM »

Have you looked at the 30/40 Krag? MGM made a barrelfor me for the Contender it shoots well.

antlery · « **Reply #23 on:** March 18, 2011, 05:00:42 AM »

Yes, I considered the 30-40 Krag. I had a 30-40 barrel made by he who cannot be mentioned and if I could get that barrel back I would. That barrel shot better than any barrel I ever had and I liked the 30-40 alot. But since I have never had a 30-30 Ackley, I bought a 21" Stainless bull barrel and am having it re-chambered. I already have dies and bullets, so I am just waiting on the barrel.