OLD SxS Shotgun question

[Jax]

I just got this gun the other day off a local guy.  The stock betweek the hammers was broken, and someone tried to glue it back together and did a POOR job...  The maker of the gun is " Charles Rodgers"  also has London on it.  Anyone know of that company?  Its filthy inside and out, and from the pic, you can see that when they put it back together the hammers dont hit the nipples...  So I have to figure out how to get the barrel off and they piece it out, clean it, repair the stock.  On a good note, the stock itself is very clean, and not many scratches at all.  i'll try to get some good pics if you guys need them to check it out. 

[swampgeek]

Does it say London Fine Twist? or something along those lines? If so it is probably a Damascus Barrel. I cant really see any tell tale signs from the picture you provided. If they are Damascus steel it will make a great wall hanger. I wouldn't risk my hands and face on actually shooting one.

I did some digging about the engraving on the locks and could not find much. Possibly a wholesale gun made for marking by numerous retailers, think sears and roebuck and the major hardware stores around the country in the early 1900's. Any further proof stamps or markings anywhere on the barrels could possibly narrow the search.

As far as the stock repair goes I have seen that type of repair done with pins and epoxy, but that is for weapons that will be fired. Again I would be certain about the barrels before I made any major decisions on repairs.

[Jax]

Yese it does say  London fine twist.  I figured it wasnt shootable, but still wanted the hammers to meet the nipples.  Im not going to pay to get it restored, but just work on it myself.  If you look in that pic, you can see where someone put woodglue or wood filler in between the metal and the stock...  that all has to come out, and put the stock back to where it belongs. 

[swampgeek]

Small pins/screws for strength and slow cure epoxy should allow you to get the stock back in its right place, if wood is missing you could patch those areas with epoxy or resin as well and use colored filler or wax to hide the repairs. Even heard of some people using melted crayons to get blended colors.

I have done some good repairs with epoxy. Just use a slow cure and be sure to clamp what you can and wipe the excess.

[torpedoman]

the name on the lock has no bearing on the gun maker. lock making was an industry by itself and the locks were sold to gun makers.

[Jax]

the name on the lock has no bearing on the gun maker. lock making was an industry by itself and the locks were sold to gun makers.

It has no other marks on it.  Between the barrels it has   Charles Rodgers London Fine Twist.  I cant find anything online about Charles Rodgers at all, so I guess its just an old no name gun   

[swampgeek]

I disagree the engraving on the lock does have bearing on the mfg of the firearm. We are talking about a double barrel that was likely mass produced for its time. Long after lock making was no longer an art and something that happened in a factory with quantity being the ruling factor. A lot of these wapons were produced virtually unmarked with only engravings on the locks to identify different retailers. This paticular engraving has popped up in other searches and forums so that leads me to believe it was not a one off or custom job.

Lock engravings can differ on some pieces but to say. that lock engraving has no bearing is discounting a whole period of mass produced traditional muzzleloaders

[keith44]

assuming the corrosion inside the barrels is just surface rust it may be shootable.  When you get the barrels off the stock, suspend the barrels by a string, or strip of leather through the wedge or pin hole closest to the breech end so that the barrels hang verticlly without touching anything else.  Give them a light rap with a rubber or rawhide mallet.  If they are in good shape they will ring.  You will need to tap both barrels, and they should sound the same.  If instead of a nice ring like you'd hear from a large bell you hear a thunk and no ring, it's not to be fired, at all not with anything, not even just a cotton ball!!!

Nice find though, should clean up nicely and be a thing of art for many years.

[sportclay]

I have seen the name on guns that were imported from Belgium.  They(the importers) often put "English" sounding names on the line of guns so as to improve sales.  I would bet that under the barrels you will find a few proofmarks and they will be Belgian.  From around 1880 to the turn of the century the Belgians exported to the US almost all the twist steel barrels and guns used here.  At one point over 1,000,000$ /year in barrels alone.  By 1905 or so less than 1% of that.  These were "hardware" store imports.  Every large to major retailer like Sears and similar brought this sort of shotgun to the public for a reasonable price.  The grades varied somewhat but basically they were of the same quality.  Some used deliberate mis-spellings of famous name English makers (and some American) to 'mislead' the buyer.  It is a wall hanger.  I would do one very important thing.  Check to see if it's loaded.  Many of these were kept loaded in the event a malicious wood chuck or rabbit might attack the garden.  I have had hundreds of muzzle loading firearms pass through my hands and more than a few were still loaded.  Most were shotguns.  In every case the powder was still volitile.  Use the ramrod or a dowel to check how far it will go into the barrel.  If it falls about 2" short of hitting hard against the breech, I may well be loaded.  I once found one that was loaded, but not with powder and shot, but, M&M's?  If it is loaded, they are fairly easy to unload with a proper rod and worm.  Sometimes a loaded barrel will also not ring when struck.  The barrel striking will primarily tell you if a solder joint has failed between the barrels and/or rib.  These were soft soldered barrels and corrosion and heat could cause the joint to fail.  Shooting could result in rapid and disasterous separation of barrels and body parts.  The locks on these guns were often not heat treated properly and as a result the wear is quite apparent and failure of the hammers to safely remain cocked or secure in their half cock notch should not be trusted.

[spooked]

Looked at a nice little 20ga. double at  a flea market last fall. first thing I made sure their were NO caps onna nipples, removed the ramrod and run it down the right barrel appeared ok,.ran it down the left..uh oh it was loaded..the seller swore he would inform any buyer..
 Still kicking me own arse for not buying it

[mcwoodduck]

Small pins/screws for strength and slow cure epoxy should allow you to get the stock back in its right place, if wood is missing you could patch those areas with epoxy or resin as well and use colored filler or wax to hide the repairs. Even heard of some people using melted crayons to get blended colors.

I have done some good repairs with epoxy. Just use a slow cure and be sure to clamp what you can and wipe the excess.

I have taken off the butt cap (if there is one) and used a small drill bit to get saw dust to mix into the epoxy.
Also furniture scratch kits work well.

[ratdog]

an old friend gave me an old double really nice barrel in and out but not locks couldn't find out much about it after years in the closet i gave to my son in law. it looked like a damascus barrel only marking were on the plastic butt plate. that will make a great wall hanger fun project.   

[StrawHat]

...and from the pic, you can see that when they put it back together the hammers dont hit the nipples... 

Some guns from that period were made with rebounding hammers.  See if when you pull the trigger the hammer will contact the nipple. 

[mcwoodduck]

...and from the pic, you can see that when they put it back together the hammers dont hit the nipples... 

Some guns from that period were made with rebounding hammers.  See if when you pull the trigger the hammer will contact the nipple.

I have also seen some of the antique shops pull hammers off one gun or get fake hammers to stick on real guns that don't fit to make it a wall hanger or lamp gun.

[SHOOTALL]

assuming the corrosion inside the barrels is just surface rust it may be shootable.  When you get the barrels off the stock, suspend the barrels by a string, or strip of leather through the wedge or pin hole closest to the breech end so that the barrels hang verticlly without touching anything else.  Give them a light rap with a rubber or rawhide mallet.  If they are in good shape they will ring.  You will need to tap both barrels, and they should sound the same.  If instead of a nice ring like you'd hear from a large bell you hear a thunk and no ring, it's not to be fired, at all not with anything, not even just a cotton ball!!!

Nice find though, should clean up nicely and be a thing of art for many years.

This will tell you if the soder joints  between the ribs ( upper and lower ) and bbls are in good shape but not the quality of the bbls as to pressure in all cases. Better to look for defects in the bore , measure the thickness of the bbls in several places to see how thick barrel metal is. Also look for blemishes and marks, dents etc.