Union jobs and dues question

[charles p]

With state and local bugets strained to their limits, why are union leaders blind to the need to reduce employee expenses as a means of saving jobs.  Seems to me that the more expensive an employee becomes, the more likely a fewer number can be hired.  Am I missing something?

Why are union dues for tax paid employees tax deductible.  It seems like they should be taxed so that part of the expense of hiring public employee union members is covered by the members themselves, and not everyone else.  Why should dues of public tax paid employee be deductible and non union people have to pay more taxes to offset their tax break?

[teamnelson]

Good questions. I don't have any answers myself, but figured I'd ante into this thread.

[Hooker]

Unions have for a long time been redundant entities there are labor laws to protect workers now.
Unions are now nothing but organized crime and nothing more. They strong arm the companies and the workers. Dues are extortion and protection money. There is far to much money involved for the greedy unions to back off. As far as I'm concerned all the union labor bosses can go swimming in concrete over coats just like Jimmy Hoffa.

Pat

[Cabin4]

For the most part, Unions have out lived their usefulness. They have now become more of a detriment to the wider labor market in the US based on the global economy.

[srussell]

For the most part, Unions have out lived their usefulness. They have now become more of a detriment to the wider labor market in the US based on the global economy.

unions were the best thing that could have happened to the working man. till  they got into politics now they are nothing more than government run gangsters

[magooch]

I was a member of a labor union for over 37 years, so at least I can speak from a position of experience.  My experience is that unions are no better nor worse than the people who populate them and the leaders they choose.  During my time in the union, we had some very good leaders and a few who were just stupid and certainly tried to use the union for political purposes.  That is probably the case with most organizations.

In general, did the union make my working time better, or worse?  In so many ways, the union was able to bargain much better working conditions, pay and benefits.  In those categories, there is no question that everyone came out ahead because of collective bargaining--even the company.

That last little adendum probably raised some eyebrows, but it is quite true.  I worked for a very large corporation that employed thousands of very highly trained workers.  For the most part, the pay and benefit standards were set in general by the industry.  We were lucky enough to have top officers in the company who at least to some degree realized that the enormous complexity of the industry wasn't going to run without very dedicated employees and that dedication wasn't going to be there without adequate compensation.  We were very well compensated, but it was also true that the skill-level of many of the employees was such that without a union, there would have been a constant line up of workers bargaining for raises on their own behalf.  In that regard, the union served the company, because the workers were every bit as bound to the contract as the company was and no private agreements were allowed.  There were some limited ways around it and the union was fine with that, because the union leaders also understood the nature of the situation.  In short, it worked out the best for both sides--everything considered.

But, things change and now days the union--at least in the private sector--often no longer has the same leverage it once had and as a matter of fact, many industries no longer have the luxury of providing the generous compensation levels they once did.  The unions still serve a useful purpose, but as many know, they mostly are trying to hold on to some semblance of what once was.

[Cabin4]

Very good insight. I think the larger public (including me) sees unions as the communist who runs SIEU and the socialist that runs the AFLCIO. In addtion, we see the government labor unions at the state and federal level who are pulling in higher pay and better benys at the tax payers exspense. Much of the stimulus bill wne to bail our state level government union workers pensions. Again, at tax payer exspense.

[mechanic]

Mcgooch, 

One big difference.  You worked for a corporation.  These folks get their money from John Q. Public, and while John Q. is going broke, they don't want to participate.......I see that as a fundamental difference.  Plus, they come in #44 in state ranking of schools, and are in the top eschelon in pay.

I betcha' that if your management had come to you and showed you they were either gonna' have to lay off, or the rank and file take a pay cut, you would take the cut.  We just recently did that to keep folks from losing a job.  When things picked up for us, we got it back.

Ben

[teamnelson]

There is a parallel all over the world today to the populist movements that paralleled the creation of unions. In essence, unions were formed to protect the downtrodden and the oppressed from their evil overlords - strong language, but easily demonstrated at the time. So they fought for the rights of the people, and found a place in the system.

But in every instance of such movements, the populist movements once in power became as corrput as the very system they fought to overthrow ... which gives rise to the next populist movement, and so on. Its cyclical in socio-political history. Its parallel to the regimes currently targeted by riots all over the world. All great ideas have a tendency to outlive their usefulness, to the point that they poison the public the longer they try to cling to what once was.

Read Animal Farm - all bad ideas usually start from the seed of a really good idea implemented by selfish "pigs".

[magooch]

Mcgooch, 

One big difference.  You worked for a corporation.  These folks get their money from John Q. Public, and while John Q. is going broke, they don't want to participate.......I see that as a fundamental difference.  Plus, they come in #44 in state ranking of schools, and are in the top eschelon in pay.

I betcha' that if your management had come to you and showed you they were either gonna' have to lay off, or the rank and file take a pay cut, you would take the cut.  We just recently did that to keep folks from losing a job.  When things picked up for us, we got it back.

Ben

Yes, I thought I had acknowledged that, I worked in the private sector.  There is a huge difference when it comes to bargaining there as opposed to the public sector.  Especially when the unions are backing the public sector managers.

My thinking is that public employees should not be allowed to strike.  Their labor agreements should be subject to a neutral third-party arbitration process if they come to an impass.  Where you find a totally neutral and subjective third-party is the problem.

[guzzijohn]

With state and local bugets strained to their limits, why are union leaders blind to the need to reduce employee expenses as a means of saving jobs.  Seems to me that the more expensive an employee becomes, the more likely a fewer number can be hired.  Am I missing something?

I think it is for the same reasons that the NRA and the antigun organizations both go to extremes because if they do not they are afraid that they will not even have a a chance at a reasonable middle ground.
GuzziJohn

[Gary G]

Unions are a cartel that enhance the wealth of their membership at the expense of everyone else.

[PA-Joe]

Why are companies allowed to do political advertisements and deduct those expense from their taxes. The top 500 companies paid zero taxes.

[SHOOTALL]

I live in a right to work state so the unions have less power here. Some construction unions here work at 80% wages so they can get work. They are useful when big jobs come along and alot of workers are needed . They can work as needed and be sent back to the hall when not needed saving the company money. Brown and Root has taken some union work because they have the ablity to get large crews. My point is in states with closed shop laws they have more power because the state gives it to them . Also here I am a plumber by trade not being union I am able to do more work . I have been trained in millwright work, welding, elec., heavy eguip. operator etc. Before going in business I was being paid above union scale. I would say in some cases being a union member limits you. BTW I was sent to school for all the extra trades I did and passed the test so don't think it was some half azzed work as it was not.

[Cabin4]

Why are companies allowed to do political advertisements and deduct those expense from their taxes. The top 500 companies paid zero taxes.

I think thats great. Leaves them with the money they earned so they can spend it the way they see fit instead of the state government, congress and obama pissing it away.

[teamnelson]

Since we're sharing stories ... I used to be the Operations/Hiring Manager for a DHS contractor based in a right to work state that served a contract at every point of entry into the US. The company paid well for the area we were in, plus the crews got extra bennies because they were usually 2-3 weeks away from home on job sites; it was a good deal, and I hired the best guys I could find, and did all I could to keep them because the better, faster work they did, the more profit we realized on the contract (which was not as much as you'd think on a several hundred million $ contract). And I received no bonus or incentive for my role, just a salary like everyone else in management, and my rate was set by Fed gov scale, so the $ wasn't high by any standard but it suited my need.

We were working along the northern border when we finally got to Michigan, and the union bosses started picketing our work site. One of my crew chiefs stopped, walked over, and asked them to walk the numbers. When all was said and done, he pointed out that he would take a loss of pay, lose control of his retirement, and several other things he valued, for the privilege of joining a union. "No thanks." he said, and went back to work, while the dues of the unionized shops were paying the reps to picket the site. That company was later bought by a big Defense company, but the owners when I was there paid top dollar for good work, which landed them better contracts, and larger contracts ... smart way to build wealth if you ask me. Right to work is good for both parties.