Home Defense

[NMGator]

I think that this guy is terrific: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhgwHQCJwWw.

I bought some 'Snap Caps' and have been practicing his technique.  Not hard to do but not as easy as he makes it look, either.

I'm wondering what you guys think about #3 Buck in 2 3/4 for a home defense load in a Pardner 20 gauge with a full choke?

If I missed a thread on this, I apologize.

Please point me in the right direction.


NMGator

[bilmac]

You need to be aware of the danger of the bad guy getting hold of the barrel of a long gun, or seeing it coming around corners in close quarters like your house. We were taught to keep the muzzle down close to your feet when going around corners and such. That said the gun close to my bed is a 1894 Marlin.

[gwhilikerz]

There is a 20 ga pardner leaning beside my headboard loaded with #6 birdshot. I think that is plenty for close quarters work. The longest shot possible in my house is 30 ft. If I am going outside there are 2 slugs and 3 more #6 riding on the stock.

[NMGator]

bilmac & gwhilikerz:

Thanks for the input.

I appreciate your time.

[nimrodder]

MNGator, here is an interesting read on HD with a shotgun.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=109958

[WNY_Whitetailer]

Clint Smith is a good person to show you technique.  I've seen portions of his videos and read some of his articles...Pretty knowledgeable, common sense advice.  I agree that you do not need a $1000 shotgun to defend your home and loved ones but I don't think I would pick a break action single shot as my first choice.  If that is all you can afford, it beats a sharp stick hands down but a pump shotgun is not that expensive.  I use and love H&R/NEF single shot shotguns for deer hunting and turkey hunting but I do not have one set up for home protection.  For that job, I have a surplus Remington 870 Police Magnum that once belonged to the Nebraska State Police.  It came to me with a stock +2 extended mag tube and Speedfeed stock.  The only changes I have made are a XS Big Dot front site, a Hogue overmolded stock and forend, as well as a Mesa Tactical side saddle shell holder.  It is set up to shoot #4, 000, or 00 buck shot.  I don't load it with bird shot...Personal preference.

[NMGator]

Thanks to all for taking the time to reply.

I went thru the HD info posted by nimrodder.  More than comprehensive, this info brings into play moral and philosophical approaches to defending the home and oneself.  Where one stands is a matter of judgement as well as a matter of safety if I read this right.

The info offered by Whitetailer is just as pertinent.

Grist for the mill and then some.

Thanks to all.

[SHOOTALL]

A 20ga with #3 or #2 buck is good for home defense . If you have a wife or child who may need to use the gun if you are not home or hurt. A pump makes more sense than a single shot hands down. As for bird or fine shot no thank you . Watch the test on "IN THE BOX' about buck and sheetrock. It makes bird shot a waste of time.

[gwhilikerz]

Birdshot a waste of time? Please explain.

[SHOOTALL]

Why use bird shot ? So it won't go thru sheetrock walls ? But at home defense range it works because it stays in a tight package almost like a slug. So what advantage does it really offer ? If you take the time to watch in the box you will learn that buck with less pellets acts about the same. The difference is buck will do a better job defending you than bird shot will ever. They call it bird shot for a reason. The old reply to your question was can you put your fist thru. a sheetrock wall to which most say yes. Then they ask if when you hit someone in the chest did your fist go thru their chest ?  Then they ask why would you want to use ammo that won't got thru a sheet rock wall ? Maybe not the best illistration but thought provoking never the less. The down the hall shot or the across the big room shot at a guy with heavy clothing or leather coat may not turn out like you want if pellets spread. Then there is the time where you may know for a fact the guy on the other side of the wall is armed and hell bent on killing you , having his way with your wife and killing her . Maybe the wall is 12-14 feet away , only you can decide the best ammo, the best ammo to have in the gun . 
 For safety better to establish both shooting lanes and things like dropping to the floor and shooting at an upward angle.

[gwhilikerz]

Never heard of In The Box.  I have tested birdshot personally and know exactly what it will and won't do. At "across the room distance" the shot will penetrate both pieces of sheetrock found in the average interior wall. But it usually won't penetrate the wall across that second room. That is important to me. Also, Birdshot won't usually penetrate an outside wall, fly into the street and hit somebody, buckshot will. Have you ever seen anyone that was killed by birdshot? I have and it looked pretty gruesome to me.
 LOL I just watched "Personal Defense" and they had a very interesting segment about penetration of different calibers in handguns and rifle. Also had a shot gun with buckshot and birdshot. The only target they had that stopped the birdshot was the back of a refrigerator and it left pockmarks on it.
 I have my Pardner beside the bed because I commited a long time ago to try to use it for everything I might need a long gun for. But I also have a 1911 in the night stand on my side and my concealed 38 on my wife's side. They all work for us.

[nimrodder]

Here's a good article on SD ammo. I doubt it will change any minds but it is food for thought. Personally I use Federal 00 buck in my HD shotgun.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#OVERPENETRATION

[SHOOTALL]

nimrodder , thanks good article , I checked out the shotgun one also. As some state they have never heard of in the box  , it would be good for them to expand their knolege . It seems when others offer support for their recomendation they refuse to look at proven facts. I have yet to see facts printed about the use of bird shot. Also I have seen vedio and still shot photos of gun shot wounds including bird and buck shot. Bird shot makes a gore surface wound for sure but less internal damage.
 People need to consider if at close range you may only get one shot. If the one shot does not end the attack it may only increase the attackers will to kill you. In reality you have hurt him and he now may see killing you as his only way to survive , it may increase his aggression.
 I hope all who consider bird shot as the "best" will open their minds enough to at least review other options and proven facts , better to learn from others.

[gwhilikerz]

Just a thought here. A lot of people would be much better off if they did their own tests and thinking rather than listening to all the "experts" on tv or Youtube. I'm not knocking anyone else's opinions or experience. The original post asked about opinions of buckshot in a pardner. The following posts offered both good and bad advice, everything from #3 buck is good to get another gun. I tried to say that the buck works very well and birdshot works very well also in your pardner. I prefer the birdshot for inside the home.

[1NEFsofar]

Birdshot or buckshot...that is the question.

My view:

For 95% of the would-be intruders, just the sound of a pump shotgun being racked will scare them away.  It is a very distinctive sound know world-wide.  Another 4.99999% if hit with anything will flee if possible or lay there and bleed in disbelief.  The other 0.000001% may fight back after the first shot....but of course that's why I have a multiple shot weapon.  The first round of birdshot may just bloody him up wherevever he is hit (this is your assertion, I beg to differ but Ok, I'll play along, {i.e. think trama, blunt impact, internal damage and hemorging, etc...}) but the seconds is quickly going into his face (or anyother spot for that matter).  No getting up after multiple shots....buckshot or birdshot.

Buckshot or birdshot, hmmmmm I'll stick with birdshot.  If it does penetrate a wall first at least my children and neighbors have a chance.


Again...Just my view.

[45-70.gov]

a single shot shot gun is primarily a hunting tool

most cock them as they raise it to their shoulder....whether  hunting or target shooting

HAVE YOU EVER COCKED YOURS BEFORE LOADING??,,,neither have I

so  WHY  retrain yourself  with  a single shot shot gun
rather than deploy it has you have for the last 30 years
that  is lay and wait silently  and make that  one shot count
what the gun was designed for  and very effective for years

this  guy lost all  his credablity  with  me when  i saw this video

my dad was a surgeon  and a shooter
he has described in GREAT detaile to me what birdshot will  do
at  point blank range......thats what  i want...birdshot
with  a single shot.......buck shot will stop it before it gets that close....bird shot won't

my dad was no  expert....but he  did see a lot
#1  buck  was his preferred load......mine  too....but  its  all  good

[SHOOTALL]

I agree do your own test and see , If you do honest test then you have good imfo. if you predecide then you have nothing.
 I would like to see the stats on those who run at the sound of a pump being racked , At night its about the stupidest thing a home owner can do as it gives his position away , keep in mind we are talking real world not some hollywood crime show . Some people die from wounds that should not kill them because of mindset others become enraged , not knowing how they will react is a biggie IMHO . .000001% now can you share with us the source , creditable source that is ? If you are talking hardened criminal that knows he will spend time in prison if caught , Im'm betting he will fight . If we are talking drug user , he might not know he has been shot . I saw a film where a state trooper shot a guy in the chest at about 2 ft away with a 45 cal. 230 gr hydra-shok the guy took the gun and beat the trooper . No the bullet didn't fill with cloth and not expand as he had no shirt on . The guy was on PCP he died a few hours later. It best to remember most criminals will wait until you are not home. The ones who come when you are home are desperate and willing to fight. Guess I have seen way to many doves fly on after a load of bird shot 

[1NEFsofar]

You want stats on people running away?  Really? Giving my position away?  Guess what, I'm in my bedroom....I think an intruder knows this already.  I'm not taking cover and waiting to ambush them!  You yourself said "
"A pump makes more sense than a single shot hands down"  How do you propose you chamber a round without noise and giving yourself away be it a first or second shot? 

I would rather an intruder run away than face off with them with one us being dead in the end.  Hopefuly you feel the same.  Killing someone, no matter who they are, is a tramatic life changing event.

Drug users, hardened criminals, films from the State Police...?? sounds like you have seen and read alot about this subject.

Again, like I said "My view"... no flame intended.  I will gracefully back out of this thread now.

BTW....if you hit the dove it would have fallen out of the sky...I bet you missed!

[gwhilikerz]

I'll bet a dollar to a donut that that same pcp filled criminal would not be standing after a round of even 20 ga. birdshot from 2 ft. But since I have never shot anybody with a 20 ga at 2 ft. I must base my "bet" on my opinion and some testing I have done with that 20 ga.

[NMGator]

Feeling stupid.

I posted a reply and it's not here.

Gotta be me.  I'll try again.

Sorry if I duplicate.

Is 'In The Box' maybe "The Box O' Truth?

The 'best' of anything is a matter of opinion


I have enjoyed the conversation and have learned that there is a lot to learn.

[45-70.gov]

shootall.....you just missed the dove....hahaha

as far as the sound  of the pump!!!!!!!!!!

lay and  wait  and ambush them.....especially since this is a single shot thread

sure  it is  best if it ends with them just running away.....BUT
if they are in your  house  you should assume the mean you  harm

why  did you let them get close enough to hear  that sound?
and  once they are close enough to hear that sound
you  don't have time to see what their responce will be

what   if they just fire  wildly in the direction  of the sound  of a pump shot gun  and  run away
do  you open  fire  then
....not if that stray bullet hit your head
don't give him that chance  to twitch  his   triger finger....thats all he MAY need to kill you
he doesn't have to be a marksman to defeat you....just lucky

[nimrodder]

 NMGator, yes its same thing. To answer your original question if I were to use a 20ga for HD I would use #3 buck also. Good luck to you .

[Foggy]

What I got from The Video Is learn to run the gun you got YOU GOT. I hunt mostly with a H&R 20ga single shot  But the first thing in my hand when the dog sounds off at 3am is a 20ga pump. shot is shot .  My home defence guns are my hunting gun I know them well
Foggy

[NMGator]

Just to stir the pot a little: My wife and I live in a rural area.  My nearest neighbor is about 350 yards away.  My wife and I are the only occupants.  It is a loft style home.  There is unimpeded access to the only 2 doors, opposite the sleeping area.  No walls, no halls.  No other way in or out.

Penetration/over penetration isn't an issue.

Based on the above and the single shot issue aside, is there a difference in ammo selection between the birdshot folks and the buckshot/other folks?

Just askin'.

NMGator

[45-70.gov]

buck shot
http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/12%20Gauge%20No%204%20Buckshot.jpg

and forget that fool in the video
use your gun the way you hunt with it
lay and wait and ambush
if there are more than one....
their dead freind will be more intimidating than the sound of a PUMP SHOT GUN

you try to use a new technigue  orhte then the way you always use this gun before
and the  half second you safe with the tecknique in the video..will  cost you 2 seconds

[dogtagg88]

20 ga Mossberg Youth model for HD...1 #8 Birdshot in chamber followed by 5 #3 buckshot in magazine, Birdshot is for the warning shot, then he can listen to the pump action, then he can deal with buckshot if he so chooses.  Years ago I saw a deer killed with #8 Birdshot while quail hunting, it was down and appeared to have been bruised to death when we cleaned it. 

[SHOOTALL]

You want stats on people running away?  Really? Giving my position away?  Guess what, I'm in my bedroom....I think an intruder knows this already.  I'm not taking cover and waiting to ambush them!  You yourself said "
"A pump makes more sense than a single shot hands down"  How do you propose you chamber a round without noise and giving yourself away be it a first or second shot? 

I would rather an intruder run away than face off with them with one us being dead in the end.  Hopefuly you feel the same.  Killing someone, no matter who they are, is a tramatic life changing event.

Drug users, hardened criminals, films from the State Police...?? sounds like you have seen and read alot about this subject.

Again, like I said "My view"... no flame intended.  I will gracefully back out of this thread now.

BTW....if you hit the dove it would have fallen out of the sky...I bet you missed!

First I hit the dove but with less shot than needed to kill it , same can happen in a SD situation with bird shot .
Second yes there are times when racking the slide is heard , My gun stays loaded with safety on ( as a side if it isn't loaded I pull the trigger and can work slide slow and easy not making as much noise as a hollywood act or if time exist just open the slide enough to to place a lose round in .
Third you want to go John Wayne go for it I will remain in a good spot for cover and take the bad guy out if challenged not go looking for a fight in the open like an old west TV shoot out .

[Foggy]

+1 with Shootall
Foggy

[1NEFsofar]

Face it.....You missed the dove!

[SHOOTALL]

Face it.....You missed the dove!

I wish it was only one