Unscripted Responses to Threats

[Dee]

I have read much on precisely how to handle a threat, or potential threat, and have been amazed at the the responses, and opinions from folks that admittedly never been there. Some quite good, some off the wall, and some harshly critical.
I would like to say that, I have been there many times in a 20 year Law Enforcement career, that includes experience in both, patrol, narcotics, tactical, and K9, and mostly as a Sgt. supervisor. Now this notation is not a horn tooting notation, but one of experience, and where I came to my opinions, experiences, and mind set.
I have heard many say: If you pull that pistol use it. Don't just threaten. This gives the impression of START SHOOTIN SOON AS YOU CLEAR LEATHER. WOW! What a concept! Folks it just ain't that way in real life. One poster got criticized for holding a thief at gun point until the police arrived. HUH! What do you propose? Coffee perhaps?
I for one have on numerous occasions held folks at gun point until reinforcements arrived.
As the title implies. Confrontations are usually UNSCRIPTED! If it worked, then it was most likely the right thing to do at the time.

[Hit or Miss]

And that is what makes advise from you guys who have been there and done that so valuable to these forums.  My idea is that if I have to pull a gun I dang sure better be prepared to use it IF the vermin doesn't wet himself and surrender or run away screaming!  I already spend too much of my time working to feed the government, I don't want to spend the rest of my working time to pay some scumbags lawsuit.

[mechanic]

Sometimes it's just reaction Dee, and if it works it works.  Several years ago, my boss and his wife were in Miss. and stopped for gas.  A guy walked up and displayed a gun in his belt while my boss was pumping gas.  He immediately turned the hose on him from head to feet.  The guy pulled the gun and the boss said go ahead....and I guess he realized what he was about to do.

The bad guy then ran around the vehicle to get in, and the boss pulled the wife out the driver's side while this guy stole the vehicle and drove away, gas soaked.

When the cops arrived, they were not to quick to go after the guy, and instead kept telling David how dumb a thing he did.  His reply was, "I wish I'd had a Zippo".

Long story short, he's alive and well, and the bad guy is behind bars after being caught trying to stick up someone else.

Now David packs a gun.

Ben

[Dee]

That's the reason of this thread. There are folks out there with preconceived notions of what should be done in an UNKNOWN not yet existing situation. I have personally know officers, that could not wait to get in a gun fight, and constantly proclaimed what they would do in one. Most of those officers didn't last long, as the bravado in the ready room was of no value in a fight. One such officer went undercover with very little experience and witness a shooting while doing nothing to stop it.
When me and my units arrived he was under a pickup in the street screaming on a talkie for help. I and a couple of others went in and disarmed the shooter. The shootee was dead before he hit the floor.
My point is: a barking dog, is usually not a biting dog, and men in many ways are the same. It's easy to say what you would do, but would you, and more importantly, COULD YOU? Have you been tested?
When I hear folks that found themselves in these situation, describe what they ACTUALLY DID, and survived, I say good for you. You reacted, and though some may criticize, and they weren't there, you were, and you survived.
Clint Eastwood movies are fine, but his macho lines were read from a script. What we're talkin about here, are the REAL THING, and are NEVER SCRIPTED.
The deal with the gasoline was a hoot to read, and sounds authentic. It would most certainly cause a pause in the thought process of a thief.

[Graybeard]

I can't imagine trying to know in advance what you will do when the chips are down. I try to be armed so I have that option and am always vigilant when out and about. Beyond that I just hope that whatever decisions I make IF I'm ever forced to do so work out well for me and mine.

I don't pretend to have a clue how I'll handle a situation that may or may not ever happen. The Castle Doctrine Law we have here makes it a bit less stressful if one has to make a decision to pull the trigger as far as legal hassle goes but who knows until you do it how taking the life of another will affect you.

Once a great many years ago I think I was likely early 20s at the time a drunk man (black not that has much of anything to do with the story) made his way down the street my parents still lived on. He was knocking on doors and trying to get in. He finally made his way to the end of the street. It was a dead end street with my parents house on one side an another house across the narrow road from it.

At the home across the street a mom and her two young sons were home alone as her husband was working night shift at the pipe shop. They had some sort of old military rifle but none of them really knew how to load it. The woman asked what he wanted and his reply was he wanted her and was coming in to get her. She warned him she had a gun but he didn't believe it.

She sent the oldest boy at most 10 to 12 at the time I think out the back door to get dad to help them. As the boy got to their front porch the man was attempting to break down the door. The boy finally managed to get a round into the chamber and fired at the man hitting him in the head and killing him instantly.

The impact that had on him likely is still with him today. He is a preacher today and he married one of Faye's cousins. I've not seen Ricky in a lot of years but I'm sure that to this day what he did bothers him but it's something he just has to live with.

He did the right thing but just cuz ya do right doesn't always mean your life isn't gonna be changed forever by the decision. To pretend to know what one will do when faced with such a situation seems rather silly to me.

[williamlayton]

Life happens in a nanno.
Blessings

[SHOOTALL]

To suggest that no pre thought is good would be wrong. The person who is serious about personal protection should play out what to do it a certian event happens . He should do so on a regular basis and in each new setting he finds himself in. If it dosen't give pratice for the exact life threating event you find yourself in it may well be close and give you an edge on reaction time. If you have never drawn your weapon under stress and the first time is in a life or death event you may come up short. The pratice may encourage you to do things as simple as placing your weapon in hand in a pocket while in certian places. Pre consideration will often help you decide in advance what will trigger you into action , as you see the action of the bad guy approch the level you have decided is enough for you to react with deadly force you are already up to speed.
 Consider the bad guy has already got in the frame of mind to hurt you before he attacks . You on the other hand have to go from at rest to full rage in seconds.
 Another consideration the responce of policeman is a different set of rules . Police are expected to stand their ground where citizens don't have to stay and fight. Better to leave and live . Living is winning.
 In many cases the fact you are in a situation you need a gun is because you missed a clue or two that had  you paied attention to you would have avoided trouble.
 What would I do as little as nessary to survive . BUT NOT ONE THING LESS. It is important to make sure the bad guy can't come back . If you go hand to hand you need to inflict enough damage that he won't get up and attack you more before help arrives. If you pull a gun and he stopps great . If he dosen't then be willing to shoot to stop. If he runs and you live great you win. Let the cops get him its not your job.
 Best to leave ego at home and carry extra common sense !

[Mike in Virginia]

Shootall said,  "Another consideration the responce of policeman is a different set of rules . Police are expected to stand their ground where citizens don't have to stay and fight. Better to leave and live . Living is winning."

Ain't that the truth?  To stand one's ground in a pending gun battle is for soldier's and police.  They have to.  They can take cover, but they can't leave.  They are duty bound to get the bad guy.  I'm very, vefy thankful for them.  Me, I had to do it 32 years; if it comes up again, and I have an opening to leave, I'm outta there.   

[LocnLod]

Good points all.  I've also heard, "if my gun comes out someone's going to get shot!".  Wow.  Or cute sayings based upon distance to threat or number of rounds carried.  It's impossible to know what will happen, but you have to try and think out of the box if only to allow the possibility to enter your mind so you're completely caught off guard.

For example, Mike is right running away is the best course of action. 

But what if you can't run away?  AND you've determined your choice of firearm for carry based on your idea that you will be able to run away.

[BUGEYE]

since I started carrying, I'm the most polite person in the world.  I avoid every situation that could escalate into a fight.
now if I'm home and someone breaks in, there will be no warning. just buckshot flying.

[SHOOTALL]

If you pick your gun with intention to run you are foolish. You plan for worst case and hope for better.
BTW whats a good running gun ?

[jimster]

I think most people that say if my guns comes out I'm using it are maybe just blowin off some steam or just talkin.  If you do have to pull one, must be things are pretty bad, but it's great if the bad guy/guys just all take off fast, or give up real fast.  Nothing better then that if you do have to pull one.  I know there is a post somewhere on who had to use their guns, probably not something most like to talk about if they did.
Many years ago I had to get one out as I was forced off the road by a car load of guys drinking, they were tail gating me and I touched the brakes, it made them all mad or something. Anyway, they forced my jeep off to the side, they got out and had some things to either smash my jeep up, or me...didn't know what to do so I got out my gun and actually had to point it at them as they got real close, I only said "please, I don't want any trouble" (don't know why I said please?) They had a couple of two by two boards and a tire iron.  The second they saw this gun, it was over, they dove back in their car and took off.  So I'll tell ya, a minute after they were gone my legs were shaking to where I had trouble pushing the clutch in, I was scared, real scared.  I pointed a gun at someone, first time, and so far last time.  I was not scared at the time I I pulled it so much (was getting darn scared when they forced me off though), just knew it was them or me, but after I had more time to think of it all it messed me up a bit.  I was younger, and I learned something, and I figure I made a few mistakes I would not make again in that situation.  One thing was, I hesitated too long to pull the gun and they got too close.  That won't happen again.  All in all, if the bad guys run away or give up it's a real good deal for all and you didn't have to shoot.  Be alert at all times, this has been mentioned, it works well and gives you a way out of the entire situation before it happens which is even better.

[Spirithawk]

This is really simple guys. If you draw your weapon that doesn't necesarily mean you should fire. What it does mean though is that you should be PREPARED to fire and do so without hesitation if the need arises! As said, the best way to handle trouble is to avoid it when you can. You can mentaly, and physicaly, prepare for the situations you can't avoid but each must be judged per situation. As I've said before, if highly trained soldiers can freeze when it hits the fan, and I've seen that happen, then what makes you think you are better unless tried under fire? Even then you might react differantly under differant circumstances. You don't, won't, can't, and never will know unless it happens. Say what you will but that's the cold hard fact of it.

[Mohawk]

 I think training is a good start. I have seen good solid training be used even under alcohol impairment. And even subtle, harmless training in your everyday chores. Example: You visit the local gas station for a soft drink and bag of chips. Just take note on available cover, persons around you, behavior of other persons, and your overall surroundings, etc. Street thugs are challenged with trying to be discreet. They normally stick out like a sore thumb.
Training doesnt ever stop. It certainly doesnt stop when the state sends you your CCW and your annual range session. You can train yourself daily to your advantage. Just running scenarios in your head once or twice a day will help that. So God forbit it did happen, it's nothing your brain has not "seen" before. Even dry fire exercises, in a safe location, help exceedingly.

[Dee]

Lotta good ideas here guys. This was meant to extract ideology rather than machismo, and so far it has. Mind set is also an issue. I taught a mindset class along with training classes in fighting to win, and fighting smart. One said, that a police officer and a soldier fight under a different set of rules than a civilian. To this, the answer is yes, and no. No police officer worth his salt really wants a gun fight, or any fight for that matter. However, in a fight, if your mind is set on fairness, then your tactics more than likely suck.
A statistic most will never read, unless in L.E. is that the combatant that gets the first shot off usually wins, REGARDLESS of where the shot lands. The theory L.E. investigators have is the demoralization, of the opponent when he hears that shot ahead of his own. It could also be the mental evaluation going on to ascertain if he has been hit. Who knows. I do know the feeling involved, and the process of thought that occur, and they are indescribable, and most likely different from person to person.
However, as has been said. To avoid if possible is the best option, but if not, fight as ruthlessly, and as vicious as possible. It quite possibly may be your first, and last fight, if you do not.

[mechanic]

Well said Dee,

I certainly have not had to experience most of this, but in my mind I liken it to boyhood fights.  I was always a little guy with a big mouth and got my butt whipped often.  As I got older I learned two things, 1.)  Shut up.  Let the other guy talk and he will usually announce his intentions.
2.)  Land the first blow.  I managed to get the better of much bigger boys once I learned this.  Once it starts, bite, scratch, claw and throw rocks.  If you're ruthless enough you can win against bigger odds.

This is what my Pop meant when he told us to never draw a gun unless we mean to use it.  He meant that if it's going to happen anyway, you start and finish it.  If it ain't keep the gun in your pocket....

Ben

[GH1]

Over the years I've come to learn that big talkers are usually nothing more than that. Tha reality is no one knows what they'll do in a given situation until they're in it. The only possible exception is those who have been in an identical situation before. Bt ene that is iffy because no situation is ever identical.
Macho talk belongs in the movies. I've never been in a situation where I've had to pull my pistol and I hope I never do. I'd rather avoid, and that doesn't work, run. Fighting is always a last resort, because nobody ever really wins in a fight.
GH1

[Dee]

Actually in a gun fight, which is the topic here, there is a winner and a loser. The question is, which one you will be? And to be quite honest, in my 20 years on the street, I met several that truly needed shooting. Of course a couple of these individuals felt the same about me, and didn't even know me.
Mindset, and practice, practice, practice, although not every time, but most times, win. Avoidance is best, but not always possible. Be ever vigilant, and yes, my wife has leaned that I never sit with my back to a door, and that I will scan the room, or store of any I enter for potential threats. It long ago became habit, and even she now thinks nothing of my habit, but instead says she feels safer.
When I am in a restaurant alone, I am sure that folks see the old man in the corner by himself as a pitiful sight, but it is where I feel less of a potential victim. After all. What they don't know, may hurt them.

[Brett]

That's pretty funny Dee.  My wife also knows I prefer to sit where I can see the entrance at restaurants or any public place and does not question it.   We are both licensed to carry and both do but she knows that when we are together I am her first line of defense.

I've sat with my back to the wall and assessed the room for as long as I can remember.   I went to a very large high school in a tough northeastern town and instinctively wanted to be aware of what was happening in a room and who was coming toward me.  I guess some people are born sheepdogs and others have to learn it.   And then they are some who are just content being the sheep. 

This has been a good topic. 

[The Pistoleer]

Great topic.  I must admit that I have said "if I pull it I'm shooting it"  but what the context was that I would never just pull my gun to "scare" someone.  I would have to be ready to use it or it will get shoved in my nether regions.

Dee, my wife, my sons and even my grandchildren know I try never to sit with my back open to attack.  They kid me about it all the time.  I live in a no-carry state but I am sure they know I am always armed I have been since I got out of the Marines.  They realize that I am there to protect them.  I guess I have always had the sheepdog mentality.

Pete

[Coppertop]

Something Greybeard said caused me to sign back in here tonight.  I am one of those that read and glean info off what everyone else is saying.  I don't want an argument or to put my opinion out there, but Greybeard said something to the effect that taking someones life will be with you forever.   I had to protect someone many years ago and although I was forced to make a choice- I maybe blocked it or just knew it was right- it hasn't really affected me.   Yet the situation I was in that I could have saved someones life by being vigilant and not so set on myself ( my needs at the time)  really have bothered me a lot over the years ( this one did not include a gun)   It was an accident   but that is why I blame myself.   

For what it's worth     legal or hidden or an accident or a mistake   maybe the situation makes a difference.   

don't trash me or jump my case as your experience is different- these are my thoughts  and I won't be back on for a while- Just had to say my part

[bigbird09]

I have to agree.  I would have to say that if someone had a guilty conscience of why they did it, such as they possible could have done something different, like talking a person down instead of taking the "easy route", then it tends to linger on,  but if you choose to do something for which you know there was no other possible choice or outcome then you can tend to "get over it".  I know none of my cases are as extreme as this topic, but I know that today still linger about decisions I should have gone somewhere or done something, but of the things that I have decided to do I have no regrets for.

[bobg]

 Read the book In The Gravest Extreme. The bottom line was don't pull it if you are not going to use it and always be aware of what is going on around you.
  Had to pull my gun once when i drove armored truck for Brinks. The guy giving me the trouble left in a hurry.  The drivers orders were we should drive away and leave the delivery person if he got in a jam with someone.
    The guys i drove for knew i wouldn't do that to them. Probably did things i wasn't suppose to covering there butts but no one got hurt.

[SHOOTALL]

The worst thing is to pull it and wish you had not because you had not considered what to do when the bad guy calls your bluff. You got a gun he does not , you are both about the same size, He comes at you ............ You just shot an unarmed man is what the late news will say if you shoot . If you don't does he leave with your gun ?
 I know you win the fight and keep the gun OK why did you pull it if you didn't need it ? At this point you might look like the bad guy.

[Graybeard]

There must be some pretty cold hearted folks here to say you could kill a fellow human and not feel any remorse over it. Some times it has to be done but to not feel remorse kinda sounds like those mass murderers.

[GH1]

Actually in a gun fight, which is the topic here, there is a winner and a loser.

I guess I should've clarified what I meant when I posted that nobody wins a fight. Even if I were to survive the gunfight and the bad guy didn't, I will still have to face the legal aspects of it all, not to mention the potential civil suit by the victims family. Obviously, facing that is better than being dead, but better still is to avoid the situation altogether. That's winning as far as I'm concerned.
GH1

[woods]

     I'm a forty-somthing  x-marine with a wife and kids I was trained to do a job and will not forget that training but hold short on ever acting unless absolutly necessary. Temperance has added alot with age something most of us gain with wisdom. I'm in a rural area where police responce is about 40 minutes unless one happens to be in the vicinity, I know it's only a matter of time till the day comes when something will come sliming out of the woodwork. At home my wife and me both trust our dog to let us know if something is amiss up till now that has only amounted to local wildlife ( raccoon, bear, skunk, oposum and fishers) raiding the chickens coop or swimming in the pool. Believe me a bear swimming in the pool on a dark night and only haveing a 45 and flashlight can quicken your pulse. I have changed my views lots of times about what to carry revolver or auto my job doesn't allow me to carry but I keep one availabe in my vehicle and handy at home. I guess it boils down too if I'm pressed into the situation I will defend as I feel the need for it, knowing full well I will have to live with that decision.

woods

[Dand]

Great discussion.  It makes me realize I should be practicing more, and not just shooting, but observing, thinking through possible scenarios, getting my mind out of the white zone and into yellow/orange.  When I think back to various events, some of the most dangerous and sudden, I wasn't afraid, ran on automatic and everything went slo-mo on me -  I'd be fairly clear and ok afterwards. But on other situations that started out seeming harmless then unexpectedly escalated steadily, I would get dry mouth, really shaky and my brain would get foggy as I did my best to try to appear calm. Guns weren't involved or needed in those escalating things, and I came out ok but I'd end up stewing about them for weeks or months, have trouble sleeping, often couldn't remember what all went on or how I got out of it. I've thought back to those incidents and wonder how I'd handle a gun in that situation.  I'm not confident that I'd do well. So I have tried drilling myself that if it comes to drawing  a gun - hold onto it real tight, don't lose it, and keep focused. 

I'm sure good LE training does that, and I might benefit from some form of it. I do worry about having a gun grabbed away from me if I bring it out - these young guys are incredibly fast and I never have been.

[Backwoods7]

My dads been a Leo for 30 years now and he taught me at a early age to handle a gun. When i started carrying one he sat medown and said to me that hes had to use his gun twice in defence of his life and that he didnt want to be forced to again. He also said that thugs are cowards they like to pick on the week and when they see your willing to fight back usually will run. That if i was ever in a situation to try and leave but if its bad enough it comes natural when to pull the trigger. But only shoot if theres no other way. If the sight of the gun dosnt stopthem and theres absolutly no way around it to pull it dont let em fire first cause that one shot could be fatal.

[Dee]

My dads been a Leo for 30 years now and he taught me at a early age to handle a gun. When i started carrying one he sat medown and said to me that hes had to use his gun twice in defence of his life and that he didnt want to be forced to again. He also said that thugs are cowards they like to pick on the week and when they see your willing to fight back usually will run. That if i was ever in a situation to try and leave but if its bad enough it comes natural when to pull the trigger. But only shoot if theres no other way. If the sight of the gun dosnt stopthem and theres absolutly no way around it to pull it dont let em fire first cause that one shot could be fatal.

Your old man, was right, and gave you good advice.